Why in the world???

[Lost in Saigon]

I see a bunch of rich people whining that they still don't have enough ... Care to correct me?

You are wrong.

Many of those who want to work past 60 are not rich and will never be rich. Many were hired at Air Canada in their 30's or even 40's and will never have that big fat pension. They just want the chance to work at the job they love and retire when the time is right for them. Not when somebody junior to them says "Times up. Get out now so I can have your job".

[flyinhigh]

Since the topic is going that way, lets discuss it.

Negots are ongoing for the renewal next year, the way that the CRHT ruled is obvious that the retirement date is gone. So when in negots how does one judge there pension now. For that you really do need a fixed date.

Also come that time now, I can see calin going. Ok, because you guys wanna work longer your wages are going down X amount now so that when you retire at unknown date your pension is the same.

On another note, I can also see upper management loving this in a way that now they don't have to pay a salary and a pension out. In a way it will help get outta the pension deficit, NO?

Also for the 2 guys so far, villan and kelly. They have already been drawing off the penision fund for X years. Do they have to pay that back now that they are back at work? Or the earnings that they were awarded dating back to april 09, did it take the fact they have already took X amount from the fund?

Discuss, and keep it clean guys.

[vic777]

I can see calin going. Ok, because you guys wanna work longer your wages are going down X amount now so that when you retire at unknown date your pension is the same.

I suppose I could see that too. Question is, when Calin says that, what does the Association say? Or do we just bend over. Will the partnership agreement in damages, tie the Unions hands?

[accumulous]

Also for the 2 guys so far, villan and kelly. They have already been drawing off the penision fund for X years. Do they have to pay that back now that they are back at work? Or the earnings that they were awarded dating back to april 09, did it take the fact they have already took X amount from the fund?

Apparently ACPA and AC have to pay back the pension (others might have better info) - if you read the transcripts it's called 'unwinding' - the amount of the Order already took into account their pension earnings. Apparently as their case was based on a Charter issue, unlike the next 150 pilots whose case is based on existing law, VK damages only went back to the date of the ruling - AC and ACPA have been ordered to each be liable for 50 percent. Their combined total is apparently a quarter million of which ACPA, which is actually all of us, the membership, pay half.

The expectation is that the next 150 will be much, much larger, based on date of forced retirement. And before mandatory retirement in the federally regulated sector is abolished this year, every pilot being forced out the door will want to be applying to the Commission for reinstatement, and if the Thwaites decision goes as expected, we the membership will be paying half of all the back wages of forcefully retired pilots as they await the reinstatement process, even though they're not on the line.

How's that for productivity. That's the liability we are facing, and there is no sign whatsoever that anybody is going to stop the runaway train we're on before it slams into the wall. Since 2900 pilots cannot make max pension on years of service if they go at 60, you have to assume, unless everybody driving the train is completely demented, that Job 1 is to get senior pilots off the list, no matter what the cost, to slide the drivers further up the list in time for the end to 60 as a barrier. Unfortunately it's already been decided, but the inertia is so great there is no stopping it, unless AC steps in and pulls the pin. This is a gong show of epic proportions.

But the bigger issue is this - if we are going to continue down the road of funding half the payroll of forcefully retired pilots so that we can prevent ourselves from reaching max years of service under the pension guidelines, which in and of itself is one of the most patently absurd strategies anyone could possibly imagine, how on earth could anybody expect contract negotiations to result in anything at all as long as AC remains on the same set of train tracks forking out the penalties for that kind of non-productivity??? Why are they hanging on for the ride. Think about it for about 5 seconds. It's so simple. If a little light bulb doesn't flash on anytime during the 5 seconds it takes to think about it, then heaven help us all. Whoever it is that's driving this train, is just taking us all straight to the scene of the crash.

[Norwegianwood]

Something along the lines of "Wake up and smell the roses" before it really is too late!

[accumulous]

Something along the lines of "Wake up and smell the roses" before it really is too late!

It's already too late - we're going straight into a 50 thousand foot cell at the 40 thousand foot level and nobody thought to turn on the radar.

From this point it's just hang on and see what gets spit out the bottom. It's over with. There was a golden opportunity to capitalize on ending forced retirement voluntarily, with all of the huge savings that could have been passed on to the group, but that is not going to happen. Much higher powers have the yoke now.

[morefun]

I don't think it is a slam dunk that the retirement age will disappear but I'm thinking 85% it will and 15% it won't...so the quetion you have to ask yourself is, do you feel lucky ...well do ya punk?

[accumulous]

I don't think it is a slam dunk that the retirement age will disappear but I'm thinking 85% it will and 15% it won't...so the quetion you have to ask yourself is, do you feel lucky ...well do ya punk?

Great analogy from a great movie. Actually, there's no choice at this point is there. Go for the shotgun. See what happens.

Actually, come to think of it, nothing will happen - we're only shooting blanks. It'll go bang but the only thing out the barrel is a bunch of noise and a lot of smoke.

[scopiton]

ok, this retirement debate is exhausting and leading absolutely nowhere, it'll be decided in court not on avcanada, the only question we need an answer to is: how old 2011 new hires will have to retire ?
lets think about the future, we don't care about the others, they're already retired... or about to... or looking forward to.

[Mig29]

I see a bunch of rich people whining that they still don't have enough ... Care to correct me?

You are wrong.

Many of those who want to work past 60 are not rich and will never be rich. Many were hired at Air Canada in their 30's or even 40's and will never have that big fat pension. They just want the chance to work at the job they love and retire when the time is right for them. Not when somebody junior to them says "Times up. Get out now so I can have your job".

Saigon,

not to sound rude or ignorant but why is that my problem?? Is it written on some crystal ball that we all have to be hired when we turn 21 at AC, so that we can MAX out the pension? Is it anyone's given right to work there in the first place?
I would be lucky enough to get to work there, or maybe not - but I wouldn't blame anyone but me for not being able to retire with 100K pension at the end. It's life and you have to accept the reality...
Who's fault is it that the guy was hired at 35 or 40 with AC?
What about millions of others who work 9-5 every day and never even pay off their mortgage in time when they retire...and even then, they only get the lousy government pension?
What is my dad going to get for his 45 years of work when he retires soon? Maybe $500 month ...
Why does the majority always has to make up for the 'loss' of the minority?

That's what bothering me in all of this....I don't care if you want to fly til you die. But if you chose to work somewhere play by the rules, simple as that! This self entitlement of certain people is going to destroy our society!!

[Understated]

That's what bothering me in all of this....I don't care if you want to fly til you die. But if you chose to work somewhere play by the rules, simple as that!

How ironic. You insist that we play by the rules, when we are playing by the rules. The rules of Parliament. You have heard of those rules, haven't you? Parliament. It's a big house in Ottawa.

Now, how about if you start playing by the rules? And how about if you tell our elected and appointed representatives to do the same? So that they can save us a huge embarrassment, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars in wasted legal fees in a futile attempt to fight the laws of the land, and untold millions of dollars in damages that will result from pursuing a hopeless legal cause, not to mention the non-financial costs to the integrity of our Association that will result when the chickens finally come home to roost? The rules. Play by the rules. Good idea. Play by the rules. It's as simple as that!

[Rockie]

But if you chose to work somewhere play by the rules, simple as that!

What rule would that be Mig? Show me any contractual rule that supercedes Canadian Law and you will have won your argument. Just one that's all, on any topic or subject you care to use. Shouldn't be too hard to do.

The floor is yours and we are waiting.

[Rockie]

Still waiting...........

[Mig29]

Sorry Rockie,
I got errands to take care outside of the house, and my flying sched is nowhere perfect - so I apologize for not getting back sooner:)

Before I answer can you tell me (but honestly):
Why is this issue so controversial if this is something that supposedly will benefit EVERYBODY over there!?? Why such a strong resistance, and why is the majority of folks opposed to this idea? I mean, if it is such a good idea, why didn't someone smarter then us come up with it and implemented it decades sooner?

As for you question....no I can't show you the proof because I won't find it. But will I have to agree to anything that my government comes up with?!
I mean, really, do I approve that the same sex marriage is a good thing...do I think those parents should adopt kids!?
Do I approve of this new harmonized tax bill!?
Do I approve how it's inappropriate to call it Christmas today but use Holidays instead because we may offend some person who is not Christian!??
Do I approve how high are Canadians taxed?
How ridiculous is our health and education system?
Do I want to pay into CPP fund, where I would rather invest the money on my own fund?
Do I like how we patch up our highways every year just so we can pave them again and keep the budget going? Why can we build roads like Germans, which are over 3' thick and don't break up every season? But that would be too convenient..
Do I agree with this governments ridiculous air security taxes and their incompetent security agents where they are treating every pilot like a terrorist and where a regular passenger is treated worse than animals!? (Do I want to have my ass photographed by some pervert and then ogled by him in some dark room where he's taking pics on his cellphone? Or if I wasn't kidding, lets put little kids into this scenario now!)

But they are all LAWS Rockie, and I didn't vote for them, but they were imposed on me and you...It seems I can't do a thing about it, because it's mostly crooks and cronies in our Parliament anyways!!
So yes, this "fly-til-you-die" rule is going to be implemented by those same political crooks who are going to use this for their own campaign, not caring about you or me....or whats good for us all. In the name of the few who are trespassing on the rights of so many! But who cares, right?...because at the end of the day it's all about ...ME!

There....feel little better now

[Rockie]

There....feel little better now

I'm glad...really. Sometimes there's nothing better than a good rant against the government. Now for your question, that I must say is a good one.

Why is this issue so controversial if this is something that supposedly will benefit EVERYBODY over there!?? Why such a strong resistance, and why is the majority of folks opposed to this idea? I mean, if it is such a good idea, why didn't someone smarter then us come up with it and implemented it decades sooner?

There is such resistence to this for several reasons. The first is because there is almost no understanding of the issue among Air Canada pilots. For that I place most of the blame on the union who is pursuing their own agenda here without giving the pilots the benefit of information needed to make intelligent choices themselves. The rest of the blame I place on the pilots themselves because last I checked they all have a brain, and should be able to find the information they know is lacking for themselves. They just don't want to.

Now the question is why don't they want to? Well, because they percieve their only benefit at Air Canada tied to advancement up the seniority ladder. Anything that may slow that down is viewed as bad, and is simply not viewed in any context other than its possible effect on their seniority. Very narrow-minded, and exactly what the union is doing on our behalf.

This concept of age discrimination also has been thought of and implemented years ago in the rest of Canada, it just took this long to filter down to Air Canada. Mandatory retirement is out because it is age discriminatory. Nothing new there.

As for the rest of it Mig, good rant as I said. But disagreeing with laws does not grant anybody the right to violate those laws. You know that. Sadly it seems ACPA and many of our pilots don't. They think because we vote on something it shields us from having to obey Canadian law. Does that make any sense to you?

[Localizer]

You don't see Canada changing attitudes on mandatory retirement?
You don't see the CHRT and Federal Court rulings on mandatory retirement?
You don't see provincial, territorial and now federal governments changing the laws on mandatory retirement?

Perhaps you should open your eyes a little wider.

This is not to my benefit ... My eyes are open ... this is to the benefit of the baby-boomers. The same majority that keeps changing the rules to their benefit .. not mine .. and not yours. Perhaps its you who needs to open your eyes .. this is history repeating itself at the other end of the spectrum. The baby-boomer history is full of rule manipulations to only their benefit .. just google it.

You are wrong.

Many of those who want to work past 60 are not rich and will never be rich. Many were hired at Air Canada in their 30's or even 40's and will never have that big fat pension. They just want the chance to work at the job they love and retire when the time is right for them. Not when somebody junior to them says "Times up. Get out now so I can have your job".

Being hired in your 30's or 40's making over a hundred grand a year, for 20 plus years is considered rich by my standards and Canadian standards when the average income is in the mid 40 thousand range. Once again you knew the deal when you were hired, that age 60 was the end of the ride .. You knew this and you accepted it until the time came. The quote you wrote .. "Times up. Get out now so I can have your job." .. its funny you wrote that because that's the other end of the spectrum I was referring to, and there are several websites of information pointing toward baby-boomers changes rules to force people before them out of positions for ... again ... personal gain. Its just that we've come to the other end now and you're once again using your political pull to get the rules changed the other way. Its all very well documented .. as if you don't know this already.

[Rockie]

You don't see Canada changing attitudes on mandatory retirement?
You don't see the CHRT and Federal Court rulings on mandatory retirement?
You don't see provincial, territorial and now federal governments changing the laws on mandatory retirement?

Perhaps you should open your eyes a little wider.

This is not to my benefit ... My eyes are open ... this is to the benefit of the baby-boomers. The same majority that keeps changing the rules to their benefit .. not mine .. and not yours. Perhaps its you who needs to open your eyes .. this is history repeating itself at the other end of the spectrum. The baby-boomer history is full of rule manipulations to only their benefit .. just google it.

Why do people like you never think you're going to be that age?

[Mig29]

Why do people like you never think you're going to be that age?

I do think about that....and I hope to retire peacefully PRIOR 60 in this career! I hope to have my grand kids around me playing in the backyard far, far away from zoo centers called "cities". I hope to enjoy my time and fulfill it with things that I love to do in my spare time...go visit friends and families. For that I need to stay healthy, and it doesn't take space monkey to figure out that 'fly-til-you die' will only accelerate my health degradation - whether you like it or not! Only fools blinded by "love of flying" or MONEY will think otherwise. The stresses and complexities of the job today have quadrupled compared to the old days. Companies keep squeezing more and more out of us and even a senior guy on reserve can't get around it anymore Passengers want to fly (almost) for free and get everything in return...and businessman running our companies are willing to bend not theirs but OUR backs, to make a buck even in the stiffest and dumbest competitions out there!

Maybe the solution is to scale down our expectation and retire with a smaller house, and not a mansion. A normal car instead of Maserati, a small boat instead of a cruise ship and to accept the fact that we are only humans after all, even though we may feel differently flying up at 41,000' seating in front of a 777

[fish4life]

If AC changed the retirement age to not exist anymore and the wage scale to be less top end heavy and more even from the start would that not make everyone a lot more happy?
Or will that end up being detrimental in the end?
I would think that if pay was raised during your first few years that your still paying off debt and mortgages your would be much better off in the long run and maybe even able to retire at younger than 60 if you want to or older than 60 if you still enjoy your job.

Then again the best solution to the whole problem is to marry someone who will make more money than you so it doesn't matter when you retire.

[yycflyguy]

Then again the best solution to the whole problem is to marry someone who will make more money than you so it doesn't matter when you retire.

That is my freedom 55 plan

An enormous assumption that the flypast60 coalition has overlooked is the guarantee that there will even be a job for the rest of the membership when it is "their" turn at the feeding trough. Mexicana closed the shop doors after 89 years. A legacy carrier with similar seniority issues within an airline that operated similar aircraft on similar routes with similar fleet and pilot numbers fed by a regional airline into their hubs. Sound familiar?

One thing I have learned in aviation is to make your money today, and there are many that view flypast60 as outright theft of an opportunity to make your $1 today. There is absolutely no guarantee that there will be an Air Canada tomorrow.

[Rockie]

and I hope to retire peacefully PRIOR 60 in this career!

Now there you and I have something in common, because so do I. But I couldn't help but notice you used the term "hope". Do you have any idea how many things completely out of your control can change that? If one of the thousands of things that could change your ability (or desire) to do that occurs don't you think you would want the option of working longer if you could? Think long and hard about this before you answer, because I already know the answer and will wave the bullshit flag if you try and tell me exactly how you will think when you are 60.

[yycflyguy]

Rockie; I'd like to hear your thoughts on the parallels between Mexicana and Air Canada that I posted and the assumption of an employer for all in the future.

[Rockie]

My thoughts are...just how much guarantee do you want in life? Having no mandatory retirement date opens up all kinds of possibilities that weren't there before that can mitigate many of life's undesirable occurrances and you inexplicably want to kill it. If you want assurances against Air Canada failing why don't you push for more pay, or an ability to retire with a full pension after 25 years service instead of 35? Get a second job, apply at Emirates, kill a rich relative, buy more lottery tickets. The world is your oyster, the only thing you can't do anymore is force people out of their job at age 60 because you want it instead.

[accumulous]

For that I need to stay healthy, and it doesn't take space monkey to figure out that 'fly-til-you die' will only accelerate my health degradation - whether you like it or not! Only fools blinded by "love of flying" or MONEY will think otherwise. The stresses and complexities of the job today have quadrupled compared to the old days.

If the job stresses you out that much you're likely a good candidate to get out at 55.

It has often been pointed out, now that we have seen the end of mandatory retirement, with regard to pension funding, the aspect of those over 60 not drawing down on the pension should immediately put it in the realm of permitting an equal number of persons to retire before 60 with no penalty.

As the dust settles on the retirement issue over the next few months, that is perhaps just one of the avenues that can be explored. There are likely many more as well.

In any event something should be in the planning stages because notwithstanding the fact that we're likely going to be on the hook for half the wages of every force retired pilot who is awaiting reinstatement, the cost of which will completely erase any gains we could hope to make on the next contract, because we have once again for the umpteenth time taken the wrong fork in the road, the end of mandatory retirement in the federally regulated sector that is going to be in effect anytime in the next 1 to 8 months, affecting 800,000 workers nationwide, including every single employee at AC, is clearly going to leave all of us firmly behind the 8-ball once again, trying to play catchup with the courts calling all the shots over our screaming and yelling.

And clearly on that note, with a history of always winding up in court beating our own brains out and continually having to be chaperoned, and never having enough smarts to think our way out of a paper bag, we need to hire some really capable leaders to sort through the mess to eveybody's benefit. Instead of wadding up 20 million and chucking it in the bin we to get a grip on how to manage our resources through outsourcing because we clearly cannot do it ourselves.

[flyinhigh]

So there is a penalty for leaving before 60 on your pension plan? Maybe on Negots a penatly will be applied for every year you go After 60! Maybe, thoughts?

Nothing illegall about that..