Finishing school, now what do I do?

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What should The Shake do?

Go to a flight college
5
19%
Join the military and hope to fly there
1
4%
Get a job and go to a private flight school
15
58%
Other
5
19%
 
Total votes: 26

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Master Shake
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Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Master Shake »

Hey guys,

My entire life, there were always two things that I wanted to do: race cars and fly. My dad was a pilot, my mother discouraged it. I was caught in the middle, so I decided to go to appease both and study life sciences in hopes of becoming a doctor.

Now that I'm finishing up a Bachelor of Science at the University of Toronto, I've realized that the traditional grad school/professional school route isn't my path. I just don't have the passion for it. So I've decided to pursue my dream and become a commercial airline pilot.

Problem is, I've been out of the game for so long, I don't know how or where to start, or if, at 24, I'm too old. I've been lurking these boards for a few days and from what I understand (and please correct me if I am wrong), I basically have 3 options:

a) Get a second degree at a flight college (ex: Seneca, Sault, Western). Work hard, get my 250 hours, graduate top of the class, and from there, hopefully be hired by Jazz.

b) Join the Canadian military and have them pay for my flight training. Hopefully I will get more than 250 hours and fly some really cool aircraft

c) Get a well-paying job, find a good flight school in the Toronto area (suggestions are welcome :)) and work during the day while earning my PPL, CPL, MIFR on evenings and weekends.

From here is where I am a little hazy. I've been on several different sites (Air Canada, Porter and WestJet) and their qualifications for a right seat are anywhere between 1000-3000 hours. After getting my CPL, what would be the best course of action in order to get in the airline industry? I'm willing to do anything to fly, even if it means working a ramp at YYZ for 10 years starting tomorrow. I just need you guys who have travelled these different paths to show me the way.

Thanks for your help,

The Shake.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

There are many many threads about this and a couple just in the past few days. The answer is there is no answer to the "magical pathway". You can have all the plans in the world and one hiccup in the economy will throw that right out the window. Just Take a look in the "hire me" section and see how many people with hundreds or thousands of hours looking for work if you dont believe me. I have only been in the game a short period of time but have felt the ups and downs already.

If you are wanting to work the ramp then research the companies that promote from within. Use the search function on the top of the forums page and you will find a multitude of information about pretty much each and every company that offers this type of pathway. Just be careful to wade though the B.S. and understand that the true perspective of a company is somewhere between the very positive information and the ridiculously negative.

Welcome to Avcanada, good luck!


Edited for spelling
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Post by Beefitarian »

I don't see the point of getting a second degree that will have little to do with flying. The degree is for your resume not skill. It shows the potential employer you can in theory be taught.

Go to the nearest recruitment center and talk to them. They are trying to sell you on the military but they will also have the best knowledge on how you may or may not fit into that route. With a degree if you can pass their initial screening process I think you might start flight training after several months of basic. The funnest part of the airforce is until you get your rating everything is a game of, let's get rid of this guy.

If you don't want a military career I'd find a private school and get your commercial license. Then figure out if you want to instruct and get your multi IFR or go up north and work for a living until you have your multi getting an IFR when you need to. The problem with an IFR or any ratings you get and flying in general, if you don't do it regularly you lose a lot of the skills needed to stay safe. So sometimes people get multi engine IFR rated then go fly singles up north to work and gain excellent experience but after a while they have a rating and can't really do what the paper says they can.

I think flying is one of the most enjoyable things you can do. It sounds a little like working as a pilot can ruin that a little. There's a lot of people of the opinion you should find a job that pays enought to fly for fun.

Sounds reasonable, you want to fly you go do it instead of "We need you to fly to this place you hate right now. No you don't get to pick."

Good luck dude.
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Teeg »

So Im kinda curious what does your Dad say now?

Your path is exactly what I went through. I finished a liberal arts degree, and thought, "what next?" difference was, I did not have any family in the biz.

I went to a flight college, did their "integrated program," finished in 11mos, got my instructor rating, and have been doing it ever since. This is but one path, that *should* pay off, but I will let you know.

Only since Ive become employed, have I started checking out AvCanada, and its very hard not to get caught up in the pessimism. Here's the ultimate question you want to ask yourself... Do you want to make a career out of flying, or fly for fun?
Pros.
1.there is still a positive stigma attached to pilots, similar to that of a doctor, "oh my gawd, you must have the BEST job in the world"
2. in my opinion, there is absolutely no better feeling then rotating, and leaving the world behind, and even better when its crappy below, and you pop through some clouds and its sunny on top

Thats it... that I can think of right now.
Cons.
1. pay, for the amount you invest in your "education" you may never see that wage again.
2. you said your dad was a pilot, for a major carrier? ask him what would happen if he got pumped off his current a/c and was moved to a new one. seniority is everything.
3. one of the reason I wanted to become a pilot was freedom. no office. no computer. no set schdule. Let me put it into perspective, you are told where to go, and you sit in a seat, in a space thats smaller than a cubicule. that freedom is stripped away from you. (one of the reasons why I like instructing)
I could go on, but Im not... because ultimately, what I have accepted, is that, Im good at my job, and someone needs to do it. It may be a defeatist attititude, but for reasons #1 and 2, its worth it. So as some have said, get a ppl. maybe a night rating, do some cross country trips around souther ontario. And then IF you still love it keep on going.
My two cents
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Master Shake
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Master Shake »

My father passed away when I was 14. I'm sure he'd have similar advice though (get a PPL, night rating, fly a little, then see where you stand)

Thing is, I already know I love it, and it's what I want to do. I want to make it my career.



The reason I'm so attracted to programs like Seneca is their facilities and resources. You graduate (albeit in 4 years) with a PPL, CPL, MIFR and a float rating. Also, they have a jet simulator that prepares you for the airlines. Plus, if you work hard, you have a shot at Jazz, right off the bat.

Ideally, I would love to work for 4-5 years, take lessons, instruct/work up north after getting my 250, then do some ramp time once I hit 1000 hours, but at 24 with a girlfriend, I don't have that kind of time/freedom to just pick up and leave. Programs like Seneca seem like they're designed to fast-track hardworking individuals into major carriers, which is what really appeals to me.
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Hedley »

Ideally, I would love to work for 4-5 years, take lessons, instruct/work up north after getting my 250, then do some ramp time once I hit 1000 hours, but at 24 with a girlfriend, I don't have that kind of time/freedom to just pick up and leave
Yes, you do.
Programs like Seneca seem like they're designed to fast-track hardworking individuals into major carriers, which is what really appeals to me.
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by modi13 »

Master Shake wrote:Plus, if you work hard, you have a shot at Jazz, right off the bat.
As far as I'm aware the Jazz program only accepts one or two candidates from across the country, and only from a select few schools. That is, of course, assuming they're actually hiring, since they didn't accept anyone the last couple of years. Your chances of being chosen to fly for Jazz right out of flight school are about as good as losing weight eating at McDonald's every day. College programs can cost as much as $30000 more than a regular school, and you can rent a simulator without having to go to a college.
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Teeg »

sounds like you know what you want. so go for it.

there is no set path to get to a Jazz/WJ/AC... you may win the life lottery and get that coveted Seneca entry... but you may not. so whats your backup plan?

Fortunately or unfortunately, however you look at it, the people Ive personally taught or met, that have gotten to where THEY want to go, have done EVERYTHING possible to get to their said position. They will fly to wheever they need to to do an interview, they will pay whatever training bond they have to, they will move from company to company to get to their goal. If youre prepared to do this, go for it!! This whole business is about working your ass off for something that MAY NOT happen. But it might.

I personally think thats the whole exciting/disheartening thing about aviation. You never can prepare, or know what will happen next. Its like prom night, youre a virgin nerd, and youre "supposed" to get laid. It just might work out.
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by KAG »

Master shake,
First you’re not too old, but I would reconsider the diploma route as in your case it’s a waste of money and time. You don’t need it, nor will it play a major role in your acceptance anywhere – unless your extremely lucky (if you want to call it that) and get selected by Jazz right out of school. I would not count on that, that program may end.

If you have the money in place, I would get my ratings as fast as you can, or as someone mentioned an integrated diploma program.

I would also search the forums here for topics on relationships and aviation and trying to start your career in Southern ONT or any major city for that matter. In a nutshell –It’s extremely hard.

You father may have been a pilot, but do you know all of what this industry has to offer? I didn’t, but the longer I’m in it the more fantastic jobs I discover outside the “airline” jobs – I worked the north, over seas, and am now at the Westjet. I’m glad I took the scenic route to get here as I appreciate it more, and had a lot of fun along the way.

Good luck and if you have any questions just ask.
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loopa
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by loopa »

Ahh yes, the mistake everybody makes. It's all about the airlines, airlines, airlines. Did you know that there are jobs out there flying 9 people or less around for six figure salaries while your first year starting wage at a Company, let's say, Air Canada is close to ... http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... anada.html

That website might be outdated, but I doubt it has changed by a large figure.

As well, if you go and get hired straight into the right seat of Jazz, you're going to be what we call, First Officer for life. Does that suit you? I guess the perspective you have on the industry right now (cause of not being in it), is mainly influenced towards airlines, so perhaps being a First Officer for a very long time is what you would be happy with.

But I will tell you this, 95/100 (some average fraction) of people in this industry go through the toughest times in their lives for the first 5 to even as much as 10 years before they score anything decent as far as a job goes. And in this time frame, it involves a lot of relocating, taking jobs with not the best working conditions, and saying bye bye to what seems to be a normal, home-cooked meal life style. Unless you have a partner who can support you financially, or if you take out a huge loan and go in debt by the time you're out of flight school. You got a girl friend? Now you have another wall to get through where you need to prove to her every day that you love her, and that she's the one - so that she can trust that you're not sleeping around when you're on lay overs. All in all, a new facet will enter your life, and if you have a partner, it's your responsibility as the pilot to make sure she feels as loved and taken care of as the case was before. This will be a harder toll on you on top of all the extra stresses in life, but on the flip side, the toll on your woman will be tough in the case where she might not see you as often - at least in the beginning. It works for me, but it took a few tries to understand how to make a relationship work when you're out there trying to make it! Especially when they give you shit about not compromising for them, cause your career comes first... ahh what to say to that ;) But there's a way around it, different routes for each couples of course. :lol:

You know, being 24 is not old at all. I have a friend who was selling car's until he was 28 years old, had dual citizenship, was a CPL/MIFR, and was hired by Lan Chile at the age of 30 flying their 767's around, 7 years later he's now at Emirates on the 777.

I'll ask you this, do you have dual citizenship? Check out pprune forums, but the sensation I feel is that the industry in Europe is picking up. And if your idea of a finished pilot schooling is a direct entry into the airlines, then the European system is more for you. The con's are that it costs way more, and you have a big debt that I believe a majority of your First Officer pay cheque gets deducted from to pay it. But you're "living the life" if you're a person with the idea of making it to the airlines asap.

I'll tell you my experience - I started ftraining with the idea that I'd only be flying the airlines and nothing but the airlines. Now, after working in the industry, getting to know people, and talking, heck I'd love to fly around in a corporate job if the airline biz didn't work out. Imagine being on different continents flying multi millionaires around? There are some companies that do it in Canada, and when you talk to their pilot's, most of them feel that the switch over to airline would be a hard toll on their life style. But on the flip side, there are people who don't like Corporate and want airline. I'm still leaning towards airline, but would never turn down a corporate opportunity! Some people get into the industry and are happy at simply flying around in a Caravan, or a King Air. Perhaps flying as an air ambulance on a Citation or something.

What I'm saying is that, if you have that work ethic to score (number 1 in the class), then I think that if you keep working that hard in this industry, then you'll in an ironic way find a much better job and lifestyle here in Canada. But it takes a lot of dedication, and boy oh boy does this industry test your passion for it sometimes. You know when you first fall in love with your girl, and want to marry her. Then 2 years later shit comes up where you question if love is enough to marry somebody? Well apply that feeling to this industry.

It's good when you make it, and there's light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes the tunnel is 50km, sometimes it's 100. Your deck of cards will be dealt, and you'll need to stick to it.

Or there's the "easy" way of opting out and continuing with a career that's not your passion, but you'll have something called a lifestyle which you won't have in flying until you've somehow made it. Be it flying a Cessna 172 for 90 grand a year, or the 737 at WestJet on 4 day pairings.

Remember, at some point, man wants to settle down. For some it's earlier than others. So if you and your girl are in a serious relationship, then I'd like to think you want to settle down earlier than later. Therefore, always keep plugging away on your goal (what ever that means, be it airlines, corporate, etc), but don't forget your outlook on the term "lifestyle." Would you be a happy camper flying for the airlines at the cost of losing your partner, or would you be a happy camper not being at the airlines, but having a really good paying flying job, and have a home cooked meal every night? And on top of all, is she the one if she hinders you from going out there and making it? Think about that one ! :idea:

I think you have lots to think about, and lots to communicate with your partner. Remember, they can change their mind anytime once the pay cheque of reality hits them.

Best of luck! 8)
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Master Shake
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by Master Shake »

It's not that I'm fixated on the airlines by any means, its just that from browsing around, it seemed like the only real avenues people discussed were commercial airlines, or bush pilots.

Either way, it's clear that I have a lot of thinking to do. While i would love to fly planes for a living, it might not be the best career path for someone looking to raise a normal, nuclear family. As of right now, I've decided to look for a job, get my licenses, network, then see where the path takes me once I'm fully certified to become a pilot. Does that sound logical or like a waste of time?
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by padre12 »

Hey, Hedley: loved the double face palm!

Padre 12
(I'm another ATPL/Class 1 out there...)
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Re: Finishing school, now what do I do?

Post by North Shore »

1.)Airlines, schmairlines...there's lots of great, interesting jobs in aviation without going the airline route.

2.)Don't get stuck on the girlfriend. MAybe she'll stick around, maybe she won't - even if she does, and you get married, you've only got a ~50% chance of that lasting...

3.)Old? At 24? HA HA HA HA HA.... :lol: :smt040 and ha ha ha again....

4.) Before you go any further, go and spend the $100ish to get a class 1 medical - there's no point in going any further if you have a hitherto unknown condition (colourblind?) that might preclude you from holding a medical.

5.) If you have to do another year or two of schooling in a college to get another qualification to get a decent job (Nursing? Paramedic? etc..) then that would be a good choice, IMHO. You'll get something to fall back on in the not-too unlikely event of a layoff and if you're a nurse, say, then you might be able to pick up shifts at your local hospital to pick up some extra cash once you are out working as a pilot (entry-level salaries can really hurt..)



Get a decent job, pay off your student loans (if you've got any)and get your PPL, then work on your CPL..

Good Luck!

(24 tee hee...snigger, snigger..)
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