A very good spin video

[MichaelP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQXLUaA3 ... r_embedded

[Hedley]

Thanks for posting that, Mike! Very educational.

In years past, I have had arguments with people here, who maintained that a spin was not really an aerobatic maneuver. Too bad they can't watch that video!

[jump154]

Thanks! Having just finished reading "Stick and Rudder" (this lunchtime) perfect timing to find this.

[CPLMike89]

excellent video thanks for posting!

[burhead1]

Great video thanks

What happened to not doing that over as built up area??

[Hedley]

I noticed that too, but I wasn't going to say anything. Different rules in Europe, I guess. I was under the impression they were more restrictive than us, but apparently not.

[MichaelP]

I think the video was probably taken from a DA42 with the ball camera under the nose and perhaps a long lens.
A long lens will bring anything in the background closer even a nearby town that might be well clear.
By the look of it the spinning was done over the factory airfield.

The wing over at the end seems to have gone beyond 'centreline (nose on horizon) level reverse roll' at the top. So with the nose below the horizon when the reverse roll began the aeroplane picked up speed and G as is evident in the wing flex.

I was under the impression they were more restrictive than us, but apparently not.

Actually that's a false impression.
Canada is more restrictive than most countries I've flown in except China.
The airspace around the Vancouver area is highly restrictive in comparison with the airspace around London.
The Paris TMA comes close I suppose, it's a lot of airspace to have to go around, but all the flying clubs are on the perifery and they are up and practising before anyone here gets to the restrictive area of the Glen Valley!

Then there's huge restrictions on doing aerobatics in Canada that do not exist in other places!

[Hedley]

huge restrictions on doing aerobatics in Canada that do not exist in other places!

Really?! Canada has pretty reasonable regulations for doing aerobatics - see CAR 602.27.

All you need is 3 miles flight vis, not over populated, and over 2000 AGL. There is a very nice exemption for the controlled airspace which Americans wish they had!

And for doing acro below 2000 AGL, Canada's system of individual SFOC's is miles ahead of the FAA's waivers - thanks, Wayne!

So really, are you complaining that 3 miles vis is restricting you? Do you want to do acro in 1 or 2 miles vis? Or, do you want to do acro over downtown Vancouver?

From a regulatory standpoint, Canada is pretty darned reasonable about acro!

[Old Dog Flying]

Canada..too restrictive...thats Michael. Sounding more like a turbine every day.

[MichaelP]

Last summer I sat and watched the Nanchangs and the Pitts doing aerobatics over White Waltham aerodrome...
It was a pleasant afternoon in England.
No-one had a display waiver or an altitude waiver, there was no concern about an inspector turning up and getting annoyed...

Many times in France I have seen a CAP 10 do its voltige over the aerodrome... I've done it myself!

Langley BC often has such aircraft fly in and out... Sometimes ATC there invite you to do a run in and break... But on no occasion may you do aerobatics there in the same way they are done elsewhere.

I remember the first fly-in I attended in Canada, at Delta BC... Newly arrived from England I was amazed that nobody did anything
"Transport Canada is here" I was told... I learned straight away that I must behave here, the regulations are strictly enforced!

I rest my case your honour.

[Hedley]

There is absolutely no restriction about doing aerobatics over an
airport or aerodrome. I do that all the time, and so does pretty
well everyone else I know.

You want to do it below 2000 AGL? No problem - apply for an
"individual" SFOC in respect of CAR 602.27(d) IAW CAR 603.67
which I have held for ten years. I also give training to people who
also want to apply for it.

I guess I disagree with your idea that everyone should be permitted
to fly low-altitude aerobatics. Most people don't fly enough, and
they don't fly enough aerobatics to be really good at it, and they
often fall out of aerobatic maneuvers, and don't fly them very well -
eg their exit altitudes are all over the place. Those people should
NOT be flying aerobatics down low.

So as a matter of safety, I would have to disagree with your
idea that everyone be permitted to fly low-altitude aerobatics.

You might not think so, but a mistake down low can have
horrible consequences, and that's a high price to pay for a sloppy
part-timer.

Once someone gets good at aerobatics, get the individual SFOC.

My normal takeoff is a 1/2 roll inverted at 80 mph, accelerate
inverted to the end of the runway, then push vertically for an
outside 1/2 cuban eight. I fly surface level loops, hammerheads
and reverse 1/2 cuban eights right over the runway. Heck, I
fly surface level aerobatics in the L39.

If you think that's "too restrictive", or too tame compared to
the "old country", well, try the USA some time. Tried to get
a waiver there recently?

[akoch]

If you think that's "too restrictive", or too tame compared to
the "old country", well, try the USA some time. Tried to get
a waiver there recently?

Yes, but why would anyone care about the USA and their rules?

[Hedley]

why would anyone care about the USA and their rules?

(sound of jaw hitting floor)

How old are you? Have you ever flown or seen or heard of any of the following aircraft?

Cessna
Piper
Cirrus
Columbia
Beechcraft
Mooney
Maule
Aviat
Boeing
Zivko
MX

Ever heard of a Lycoming or Continental engine? Ever wondered where airworthiness directives on any of these airframes and engines might originate? Do you even know what an AD is?

Ever heard of Hartzell? Macauley? Sensenich? Do you even know what a propeller is?

Ever heard of Bendix/King? Narco? Collins? Garmin? Do you even know what a comm/vor/adf/gps/dme/ics/transponder is? Who developed the TSO for IFR GPS? Do you even know what a GPS is? Who put those satellites up in the sky, and maintains them? Do you even know what a satellite is?

Are you aware of the personnel licence reciprocity between the USA and Canada?

Are you aware that the vast majority of general aviation hours worldwide, are flown in the USA?

Ever heard of ICAO? Aviation isn't just a Canada-only thing.

Do you know what a map is? Look at one, sometime. The overwhelming majority of Canadians live on a narrow fringe hugging the US-Canadian border.

Economically, US-Canadian trade is HUGE. Are you affected by money? Would it matter to you if you lost your job and your house? Or, do you live in a forest in BC in a treehouse with a solar-powered laptop, stealing your neighbour's wifi?

Ever heard of a homebuilt airplane? What's the most popular kind? The RV, from the USA. Their rules about homebuilts affect Canadian homebuilders.

Do you think ceritifed aircraft need parts to stay serviceable? Where do those parts come from?

Just frikken incredible.

[MichaelP]

So as a matter of safety, I would have to disagree with your
idea that everyone be permitted to fly low-altitude aerobatics.

It's a don't do as I do do as I say sort of thing I suppose...

I think the difference is that aerobatics are much more a part of the European culture than of the Canadian one and there are a lot of competent aerobatic pilots there.
I lost an aeroplane and the friends flying it when they were doing low level aerobatics... I agree that it's not for everybody!

Yes you can get a low level aerobatic waiver go through the process, but then you need an airshow permit in this part of the country.
I remember a fly-in where there was a threat that if anyone did a fly by it would constitute an 'airshow', and since the fly-in was not given an 'airshow' permit there would be serious trouble if anyone did anything considered to be showing off I suppose.
People are scared now to do anything. Even a low approach and go around can be seen as breaking the regulations!
There was a period here where a low pass would get you a fine!

[Hedley]

a fly-in where there was a threat that if anyone did a fly by it would constitute an 'airshow'

Good point. An "individual" SFOC is quite different than an airshow SFOC.

An airshow SFOC is required to perform aerobatics in front of an invited assemblage of persons.

As you might imagine, I have rubbed up against this one before. An individual SFOC holder must be careful not to invite anyone to watch him fly, lest it be mis-interpreted as an airshow.

This can get to be a bit of a sticky wicket if people know that you regularly practice, say, every tuesday and thursday nights. Even if you don't invite anyone, people can still show up to watch you fly, and Transport takes a dim view of that, despite your protestations that you didn't invite anyone to the airport, to watch you fly.

As a result, I try to keep my practice times secret and as random as possible, to avoid running afoul of CAR 603.01 and to have as few people as possible see me fly aerobatics.

[akoch]

Just frikken incredible.

Hedley, come down. My job, or house or living do not depend on the US in any way shape or form. Canada, Asia and Europe - to a much larger degree. Not sure why it worries you so much, but no problem. I've known and flown with 16,000h+ pilots who never flew any of the aircraft you mentioned. I guess they now need to be educated that they wasted their lives. Even the aircraft in this video happened to be using an MT prop, Centurion engine, and I'll give you that - Garmin G1000.

[Hedley]

come down

My apologies. I got on a roll with my rant. One of
my many character flaws

I've known and flown with 16,000h+ pilots who
never flew any of the aircraft you mentioned. I guess they
now need to be educated that they wasted their lives

Not in the least. But if you're going to live and fly in Canada,
you have to realize that we are in bed with an elephant,
even though we might pretend we are not.

BTW, just to let you know I am NOT a western bigot, here
are some pictures of me and my son at an airshow this
summer, in Canada:





Look familiar? I have enormous respect for good engineering.

PS You like the paint scheme I chose?

[Cat Driver]

Yes, but why would anyone care about the USA and their rules?

Well akoch, me for one.

In fact FAA part 91 and the FAA instrument rating was what allowed us to earn a good living all around the world.

The Canadian rules are arguably the most bizarre in the free world.

Not to mention the level of corruption at the top of TCCA, at least most of the countries in Africa were preferable to work in as money generally got us what we wanted.

It never ceases to amaze me how insular most Canadians are......

[akoch]

It never ceases to amaze me how insular most Canadians are......

This is what (implied) caught my attention in this thread, and probably prompted the question. But this is human nature in most places anyway, far from being a Canadian, US or European thing only. So it looks so funny, even ridiculous. Anyhow, let it rest.

Hedley - nice score. Albatross is an excellent aircraft and has very good reputation back there. I've seen it operating from unimproved fields no problem. And a guy in my company used to service L29 and L39s, and has only good things to say about them. But I can only guess the fuel and operating expenses on it, like over $1k for a flight hour? I'm curious, I had a chance to import one, acquisition price is still affordable. But the operating expenses don't seem to look reasonable at all.

A year or so ago a similarly painted L39 made a low pass and then went vertical over CZBB, I was asked to extend the downwind for that. Was it you then?

[Hedley]

I can only guess the fuel and operating expenses

Like death and taxes, it doesn't pay to dwell on it

[MichaelP]

Hedley's one of the few people to make a lot of money in aviation to be able to buy a jet among other toys...

I had a chance to import one, acquisition price is still affordable.

You didn't ask me about buying one of these!

If I had the choice I think I'd go for a Folland Gnat

It never ceases to amaze me how insular most Canadians are......

I'd get shot down big time if I wrote this, right Barney?

As for the "USA and its rules", there's 'Manifest Destiny', and Canada has always played into American policy...

[Hedley]

Folland Gnat

Looked at one. Decided against it. Maintenance nightmare, apparently.

[MichaelP]

It's a neat little jet though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat

[akoch]

You didn't ask me about buying one of these!

There were only so many things one could ask in limited time. I probably only had a chance to learn like 5% of the diamond questions I had anyway. Learning and knowledge take time, I have not found a way around this yet unfortunately. Thank you for your insights back then Michael.

[akoch]

MIchael, what do you think - would DA-40 feel much different to spin and recover vs the Katana?

The last turn to base looked much like a barrel roll, did not it?