Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?

[cdnpilot77]

I havent been very religious in my life so I cant really say if I think god was a dick, but the sodom thing really f'ed a lot of people in the ass

[trey kule]

Once upon a time, many years ago, I did some formal training in religous studies.
My answer to your question though would seem a little bizarrare I think. If you have not read them, there is an interesting set of books called "the earth chronicles" by a guy, if I recall correctly by the name of Zacharia. You can google earth chronicles if you are interested.
I dont agree with everything in them, but they do present an interesting perspective that would probably give you some insight into your question as in the first chronicle called "the 12th planet" he deals specifically with these two episodes.

[iflyforpie]

What I was taught is that God gave dominion of the Earth to man (I'm pretty sure it's in the opening part of Genesis somewhere).

So even though God is everywhere and can see everything, he doesn't necessarily have the right to interfere with it whenever he wants. This is also the reason why prayer is viewed as being important. We aren't asking or telling God anything he doesn't already know, but through prayer you are 'allowing' God into your domain.

This is the Sunday school version, but I wouldn't read to far into it. Obviously God decided to break his own rules when he sent rain for forty days and sent fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah.

He even turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt just because she looked back at the city.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo


As with any text written by man thousands of years ago that people proclaim to be absolutely true, it becomes more and more difficult as time goes on to keep it logical and believable....

[burhead1]

If you find yourself in the room full of righteous a holes and the earth starts to shake and the building begins to fall you can the yell out YOU DICK.


I just like your posts Niss

[trey kule]

I know I should stay out of this but I cant help myself.

The bible (old testament) is just one of many ancient texts. And it is not an original text, but a compilation of older texts..
So lets look at the Noah thing . When Moses first refused, God did not test him by asking how long he could tread water ...
Seriously, there are many accounts that still exist in South America, China, and India (and probably others) or the flood. They differ generally, because they only documented most of the people getting killed and some high ground left.And did not atribute it to a diety.
So, when it comes to Noah, we have an historical incident that has a couple of twists to it. Firstly, it was not written for a general audience, but for the use of the tribes of Isreal and "their god" (even the old testament, in genisis refers to gods in the plural...and even in the King James version or the American Standard).
An historical incident that was interpreted and written to teach a lesson. Not all fact, but enough of it in there.

So why just one person. Well , in this case, if other historical documents from that area and era (non biblical) are to be believed, it was a case where the head god wanted to see all mankind dead. It was argued by the others in the council of 12 to spare a specific guy and his family because he was popular with them.And so Noah was the chosen one. After the flood when Noah had the barbeque for the Gods, there was further worry about the spread of mankind...an interesting take on how the Gods thought this would be resolved.

As far as the whole God thing goes, I think one has to decide on the meaning of the word. A great spirit, omnicisent and without any emotions as we have is not like the God described in the old testament. The old testament God, walks, talks, and the lesser ones actually like to chase the ladies (its all in their folks if you take the time to read it.) So we have two different entities ...the ghostly spiritual one, and the much like man one that walks, talks and fornicates...and which at least one of them (the Jewish |God) who threatens all sorts of evil doings to those of his people that dont do what he says....and then makes them cut off the end of their little arms just to ensure the point is taken)
The spiritual one...ah...refered to as The dao, force without a name, etc etc, And maybe a completely different entity..So calling both of them God could lead to a great deal of confusion if you are trying to understand the motivation of the great spirit by the actions of the walker and talker...

Simple...right?

And so endth the Sermon.. In next week's sermon I will be discussing the Canada's privacy laws and the potential for Santa Claus's naughty list to be leaked..

[Beefitarian]

Nice post Trey, the counsel of 12 part sounds a little Joe Smith inspired to me. What are the historical documents that contain that? Don't get too deep, I don't know if my feeble mind can handle as much as it used to.

This is a pretty good thread niss, thanks.

Supposedly there's a particular place in hell for someone of this nature, but then I'd also have to believe in hell to go there.

I'm not sure that'll work. If I choose not to believe in Sudbury because I don't like the sounds of it, will it dissapear?

[trey kule]

I will emphasize it. "The Earth Chronicles" It is a little collection of books by a Jewish scholar , who is one of the few people that understands sumerian, and others of the older languages..It should be in the library. If the whole collection is not there, the first in the series, called the 12th planet, discusses the situations mentioned here. It is not difficult reading.
The group of 12 was not referring to joe smith. It is referring to some sumerian records. Also, it appears in Greek (mythology) with Zeus as the head, and in Chinese (mythology). I think the actual number of Gods that the records show was in the hundreds.

[Beefitarian]

Yeah, sorry if that sounded like something I wasn't going for, stupid internet text.

I didn't mean to accuse you of mixing things or pushing a particular religion. I was more wondering if there was a chance the ancient texts may have inspired others to change and shape the more modern aspects of Joe's church.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm not sure that'll work. If I choose not to believe in Sudbury because I don't like the sounds of it, will it dissapear?

Whether it disappears or not is irrelevant, its whether you go there or not. If you don't believe in Sudbury and never go there or nothing from Sudbury ever affects you, for all intents and purposes it might as well not have existed in your perception. More importantly if you have ended up in Sudbury, but didn't know you were there, is it possible to feel that you were punished by that turn of events.

In reality the concept of Hell as a punishment is only really effective if you believe that there is also a better place to go as well. If you didn't believe in either, but ended up in one when your mortal coil is at an end, you'd probably percieve that the new location of your soul was just the normal progression. It might seem like a pretty bad place, fire and brimstone and all that lot, but with no means of comparrison that would just then become your baseline.

Its interesting that in the historical record that Hell has a longer history than heaven does. Many of the names for the devil have been in existence far longer than the popular concept of one God. The three major Abrahamic religions have borrowed heavily from previous pagan and pantheist concepts.

Ignoring that, possibly the greatest arguement for God being a "dick" is the existence of "Hell". It certainly gives him a sterner and more vengeful feel (which interestingly enough, were concepts that were favoured in the Nordic pagan beliefs, Gods as wrathful and vengeful characters) but it really hinges on what you consider being a "dick" is and your own point of view. If you happen to be a believer who gets rewarded for your faith in the end, it seems to you it has all worked out and God's plan for you has worked out to its fruition. If you happen to be an unbeliever and find yourself in hell at the end, you might say that it certainly wasn't cool. If I say who was raised as a Christian and Niss who is Jewish, then one of us is going to hell in the end (or probably both for having this discussion, but lets assume we were both virtuous for the arguement's sake) and when put to the test one of us is going to say it was a "dick move".

Of course then that also brings up the topic of whether God really takes sides.

[Beefitarian]

Sudbury might be a little more subjective. I agree it might be possible to enjoy a trip there. I'm not convinced by some good Scotish/Australian tunes that hell's going to be ok just because they sang, "all my friends are going to be there too!"

Why would being a jew or christian cause the other to go to hell? Yahushua was a jew.
I can never find it but somewhere in the bible it says, "many will be quite surprised to see people they didn't expect in heaven."

[canwhitewolf]

Yahushua wasnt a jew

[Beefitarian]

Yahushua wasnt a jew

Fair enough you've caught me. The letter "J" wasn't even invented then.

[Shiny Side Up]

Why would being a jew or christian cause the other to go to hell?

Well there is that little bit about the Jews killing Jesus, so...

Seriously though, if one subscribes to any of the three abrahamics, there's a bit about where the unbelievers go. Why do you think its been so easy throughout history to crusade against the infidel? They're going to hell after all, why not help them on their way, you're just doing God's work after all. Coverting the unbelievers is also held in high esteem amongst the religions - in most its a surefire ticket to heaven. While its possible that all religions offer a path to heaven, this doctrine isn't present in any of the three, so if you subscribe to one of them you're really hoping you made the right choice.

Part of what makes someone's faith so strong if the belief that there is a purpose, there is a reason for it all. Its also easier to believe that you are doing something correct if you have an example of what is incorrect. By extension to believe in God, you have to believe he is infallable - there's not much point in believing in a God who goes oops, that's not very comforting. Its probably why most of the other pantheons have went out of favor, it was pretty hard to worship Zeus, who had a propensity for posing as you and screwing your wife, or Thor who occasionally drank to much and killed mortals in a blind rage.

[canwhitewolf]

Yahushua wasnt a jew

Fair enough you've caught me. The letter "J" wasn't even invented then.[/quote]
*********************************************


maybe He was a Galilean

[Beefitarian]

Well there is that little bit about the Jews killing Jesus, so...

Unpossible, we've just started the discussion on the letter "J". The thing's only like just under 500 years old.

Why do you think its been so easy throughout history to crusade against the infidel? They're going to hell after all, why not help them on their way, you're just doing God's work after all. Coverting the unbelievers is also held in high esteem amongst the religions - in most its a surefire ticket to heaven. While its possible that all religions offer a path to heaven, this doctrine isn't present in any of the three, so if you subscribe to one of them you're really hoping you made the right choice.

Well there you go. That's why I like the bible but I'm not a fan of religion. You can support those idea with the bible sort of, but you need to ignore a lot of what's in there.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well then in closing there really are only two probabilities.

1) You believe in God, therefore by extension you probably interpret the religious texts to prove his infallability, or...

2) You don't believe in God, in which case whether he is fallable or not is irrelevant.

I suppose there is also

3) You believe in God, believe he is fallable, most of which you feel you need to justify possibly to explain your own misfortune. After all if you think you are fortunate, I'm not sure what kind of world view you might have that would also say that this is wrong. That being said I'm not sure why a person would hold such a miserable belief - that God is indeed out to get them. There's paranoia and then there's paranoia. I suppose it might be slightly comforting to at least have the knowledge that you have the attention of such a wrathful God.

[trey kule]

So, nissters, I can only assume from your original question that you have done something that is eliminating any possibility of enjoying the exotic delights of your beloved and thus have time to ponder on such questions.
Did you manage to obtain the 12th planet or the earth chronicles? They are quite worthwile for those that ponder such questions as they offer a very different historical persepective , and were written by a world famous Jewish scholar at that.
Maybe downloadable on an e-book from the libreary. PM if you do read them and let me know what you think...
Alternatively, I have found flowers, groveling, and dinner has gotten me back to a place where I no longer have time to contemplate such mysteries.

[niss]

So, nissters, I can only assume from your original question that you have done something that is eliminating any possibility of enjoying the exotic delights of your beloved and thus have time to ponder on such questions.
Did you manage to obtain the 12th planet or the earth chronicles? They are quite worthwile for those that ponder such questions as they offer a very different historical persepective , and were written by a world famous Jewish scholar at that.
Maybe downloadable on an e-book from the libreary. PM if you do read them and let me know what you think...
Alternatively, I have found flowers, groveling, and dinner has gotten me back to a place where I no longer have time to contemplate such mysteries.

LMAO,

No joy on those books yet, I have a long list of books to read and so little time but I will let you know when I manage to.

And no these thoughts are not stemming from an angry wife or a dry spell. I teach Hebrew School at our Synagogue and am exposed to such things on a weekly basis, thus my curiosity and cynicism take hold of it.

[Beefitarian]

As an Athiest-Jew

I teach Hebrew School at our Synagogue and am exposed to such things on a weekly basis, thus my curiosity and cynicism take hold of it.

Ok, now I really want to come over with a case of "HE'BREW" to hang out and chat.
http://www.shmaltz.com/

We should probably try to get . and Hedley in on this.

[niss]

Hehehe, those would be good times indeed.

[Brewguy]

Well I wasn't originally going to jump into this debate, but my toddler is sick with a miserable cold, and so I've had way too much Bob the Builder, etc. and need a break.

Your question: Is God fallable, or a dick?

Consider that perhaps, he/she/it is neither.

Imagine a child has some playdough. He builds a little playdough car, playdough house and little playdough people. He spends hours and hours making these little dough people have various adventures / misadventures. All is good.

Mommy tells the child it's almost time for dinner, put away your toys and go wash-up. The child proceeds to smoosh the little dough people into massive ball, along with all the other things he'd spent time building and creating; and sticks it in a tub on the toy shelf ready to play with next time.

Is that child a dick? Perhaps the little playdough people would think so. It's all a matter of perspective.

Assuming there is a god who created us, etc. Does that mean we're of any importance to he/she/it? Our entire existence has taken place in the blink of an eye (in a geological time-scale). We are a tiny and insignificant spec in a vast universe. It's all a matter of perspective.

[niss]

Well I wasn't originally going to jump into this debate, but my toddler is sick with a miserable cold, and so I've had way too much Bob the Builder, etc. and need a break.

Your question: Is God fallable, or a dick?

Consider that perhaps, he/she/it is neither.

Imagine a child has some playdough. He builds a little playdough car, playdough house and little playdough people. He spends hours and hours making these little dough people have various adventures / misadventures. All is good.

Mommy tells the child it's almost time for dinner, put away your toys and go wash-up. The child proceeds to smoosh the little dough people into massive ball, along with all the other things he'd spent time building and creating; and sticks it in a tub on the toy shelf ready to play with next time.

Is that child a dick? Perhaps the little playdough people would think so. It's all a matter of perspective.

Assuming there is a god who created us, etc. Does that mean we're of any importance to he/she/it? Our entire existence has taken place in the blink of an eye (in a geological time-scale). We are a tiny and insignificant spec in a vast universe. It's all a matter of perspective.

Except the bible says that he is a loving and merciful God. Which clearly he doesn't seem to be.

Also you are taught that if you apologies and pray for forgiveness, God will forgive you. but what about the billions of creatures who did not anger God (Noah & Ark) who perished anyway?

On top of that I would argue that if that child a) did care about his creatures, b) was not a dick then would have certainly been fallible in his wanton destruction of his creatures.

[Beefitarian]

Brewguy might be on to something. The Playdoh creatures are Playdoh the whole time regardless of the shape or form they are in at whatever given time. No one felt bad for the Playdoh car that got squished, we have more sympathy for the Playdoh hot chick because we relate to it differently.

Maybe the animals that didn't get saved in the Ark didn't mind going back to a different form of dust (carbon) via the flood as opposed to what ever death they eventually would have got to. Maybe in their case since they were not being punished like the people they were given special conciousness that made them have fun drowning.

Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?

[Brewguy]

Niss: you appear to assume that god same sense of morality as a human, or that a human's mortal life has some degree of value or importance. If the soul is the bit that matters; destroying the mortal lives of 'billions' of creatures is really no big deal for a god.

Back to the child analogy, if you pick your toys up off the floor and put them in a toy box or on the shelf, have you really done those toys any harm? Certainly you may have disrupted them .... but they are still doing what they were intended for. They are still toys.

If god plucks the soul out of a creature, takes it off this earth and puts it in another place; has he/she/it done us any harm?

Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?

No, I haven't. I gather it's some form of Kosher beer is it?
I like beer ...

[niss]

Niss: you appear to assume that god same sense of morality as a human, or that a human's mortal life has some degree of value or importance. If the soul is the bit that matters; destroying the mortal lives of 'billions' of creatures is really no big deal for a god.

True, but for the purpose of this debate it is assumed that if God exists, he does so exactly the way he is described in the Bible and the accompanying texts.