Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?

[trey kule]

Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein, ...be careful what you are quoting from the Bible.

If you take a quick read when the Hebrew God and his head guy, Abraham were having a conference and discussing those pesky commandments and how they would convey them without the internet being available, you will see that God refers to himself (yes...himself) as a vengeful God. There are other Gods around, you see, and if Abraham and his team start paying alligance to any of those other Gods....well, he probably would have extended that little snip job a bit further up (It doesnt actually say the last part, but I believe!!)

Much of what we believe the Bible says, it does not....People believe it says money is the root of all evil..does not say that. What is says is the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...big difference. Sometimes it has to be read and hopefully intrepreted with as little of our prejudices and beliefs as possible. If you read Ecc 15.16 (I think, my memory is not what is used to be and it really was not all that good then), it actually says money is good..the best..Shekel accumulation is much to be desired..(Not sure if it actually says it exactly this way, but I am relying on the fact people will be to lazy to actually check.

Anyway, I am now getting into arguement mode so will bow out for awhile. going to go and see if I can copyright He'Brew..the one most chosen. I suppose though that it will have to have a warning label that drinking this brew may cause one to suffer like no other brew.

[canwhitewolf]

presumptively..if there were a simple defintiion for the term God it might be that God ( if you choose to call the energy that) is that creative force in everything that is

that makes it simple

[Beefitarian]

Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?

No, I haven't. I gather it's some form of Kosher beer is it?
I like beer ...

Yeah, I've only tried the coney island lager, it was pretty good. I'm just glad I didn't have any thing in my mouth when I read this.

Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein

Oh man, THAT was awesome!

Too late on the beer Trey, www.shmaltz.com has had it in production for a while now.

[niss]

Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein, ...be careful what you are quoting from the Bible.

If you take a quick read when the Hebrew God and his head guy, Abraham were having a conference and discussing those pesky commandments and how they would convey them without the internet being available, you will see that God refers to himself (yes...himself) as a vengeful God.

But also a forgiving God (Yom Kippur) etc.

That said most examples of forgiveness are found in the New (wrong) Testament.

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/forgive.html

Biblical Repentance

"Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out" Acts 3:19

Repentance of itself is not simply a reform of one's behavior, although genuine repentance does result in a reformed behavior. But repentance itself is the sincere seeking to be forgiven. It is preceded by conviction and acknowledgement that one has sinned. The kind of repentance God demands is one which has visible results. Paul discussed his gospel with King Agrippa saying "that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance." Acts 26:20 And also John the Baptist says, "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance." Luke 3:8

[canwhitewolf]

anyone ever wonder why all this religious stuff comes from the middle east? does god love that place more for some reason

why didnt it come from nova scotia for example

[Giveitago]

Niss

Arguing (discussing) the (in)fallability of God with a self proclaimed athiest is probably not the most productive use of time.....

but...

Your example of the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah is only partially complete.

Abraham does in fact ask God to spare the city if he can find 50 good people, God agrees.....tries for 45....God agrees, continues on until the number is down to 10 people...just 10. In a whole city.

God doen't just smite the city then. Instead he sends two angels disguised as men to enter the city to find 10 good people. Instead the find 1 good man who save them from a gang rape. (read it, it's there). Lot (the good man), upon hearing of the upcoming destruction of the city pleads for his extended family. Lot is granted a reprieve of the city to gather his family for escape. Unfortunatley his family (a couple of future son in laws) scoff at Lot and refuse to leave. Lot gathers his immediate family and leaves. NOW God smites the city. With not a single righteus person left within it.

So God is not a Dick in this example. He has spared the righteous. But he is "Just". He has destroyed the wicked as he has allways said he would.

Do you think God knew there was no righteous left within the city save for Lot and his Family. I would think he probably did. But allowing Abraham to intercede on the cities behalf and then allowing Lot to intercede on his families behalf showed that God is willing and wants to allow for the repentance of the unrighteous. Wants his followers to intercede for and be concerned for the well being of others and allows them the opportunity to work on behalf of the unrighteous.

In my mid, this would be the opposite of God being a "Dick"

Now, that all being said I don't expect you to change your mind one way or the other on this discussion. But I wanted to put your example into perspective for the sake of the discussion.

We can discuss Noah, the great Flood and the rebuilding process later....too much typing.

[niss]

But that is exactly my point. What if Abraham was completely faithful and figured God was right to destroy it. God would have presumably destroyed the whole city, Lot and all.

That's why I think he might be a dick.

[Giveitago]

Niss

Had Abraham NOT interceded for the people of Sodom then the preceeding verses would be incorrect.

16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. [/color]

God KNEW he would intercede, by interceding for those in Sodom, he WAS being completley faithful. He was "keeping the way of the Lord to do Justice AND Judgement" The Lord did not command Abraham to destroy the city, had he done that and had Abraham refused then he would have been unfaithful. He told Abraham of his PLAN to destroy the city IF they hand indeed commited the grevious sins which ha cried out to the Lord.

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Note that Abraham never said God was not right to destroy the city if it was evil. He petioned the Lord to spare the city IF 10 Righteous men could be found in it. Unfortunatley for Sodom, Only one Man was righteous.

[Slats]

Having been subjected to a very religious upbringing in which I was coerced into attending church 3 times a week on top of attending a religious school, I think I am very well versed in this subject matter and I find people's various levels of familiarity and the resulting views on this topic most interesting. But in the interesting of just plain answering niss' question: I like to think that if God does exist, he is kind of a dick. It would make me personally feel better about suffering from the same affliction, if not for the fact that being a dick, by it's very nature, precludes me from giving a shit about it.

[trey kule]

Oh vey, I should leave this alone...

canwolf...My whole original point was that the definition of God is in fact flawed. The definition you put forward only refers to some sort of spirit, The biblical God, in many descriptions, walks, talks, threatens, makes deals, and demand his people be team players....that is not a spirit ...And with our use of a single name for two different entitities we confuse ourselves, and subsequently try to attribute to each of them some of the attributes of the other.
The Bible is not the only source of historical information of what went on during those periods, and the bible itself, in Genisis refers to the Elphim (I hope I still spelled that right). In the original Hebrew, the plural is used in Genisis and not the singular in many cases.
As to Angels..simply means messanger..Not some winged magical creature that we might have had shameful thoughts about as teenagers.

Now the really serious stuff...
Nova Scotians have beer....nuff said there I think...but the realitiy is that the bible is based on events in the middle east. There are God like records from places other than there but in North America we simply do not hear of them yet...multiculturalism will change that in the future.

It was dissappointing to be told about the beer...I shall suffer terribly, and no one has suffered as much as I have ....anyone got any other good beer names? Duff and Quahog have also been copywrited.

This was a good discussion Niss, but I wouldnt post to much more....If the big guy is really a dick and has the powers of Santa Claus , he knows now you have doubts...and you know where that will lead.....just saying is all.

[canwhitewolf]

[quote="trey kule"]Oh vey, I should leave this alone...

canwolf...My whole original point was that the definition of God is in fact flawed. The definition you put forward only refers to some sort of spirit, The biblical God, in many descriptions, walks, talks, threatens, makes deals, and demand his people be team players....that is not a spirit ...And with our use of a single name for two different entitities we confuse ourselves, and subsequently try to attribute to each of them some of the attributes of the other.
[quote]
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and there in lies the problem...mankind writing this stuff and putting his own spin on things. and mankind writing this stuff for their own agendas