Logging Instrument time real world

[oates76]

Hi All, I'm fairly new to the flying for dollars world, so previous to this almost all my IFR time has been under a screen or hood, so it's been logged as Simulated Instrument. Browsing the CARs, I get a little confused when looking for recency requirements. So far when logging time in the "actual instrument" time, that's only when I'm flying IFR in IMC, so maybe a .2 or .1 on most days, and we're usually above the weather in cruise. However, I get confused in the CARs, when mentioning the requirements for keeping a log, one is to "log with respect to day, night or IFR". So does this mean specifically IFR in IMC, or should I somehow be logging all IFR flights as such, somewhere in my logbook?

Any help appreciated to help me get my head around this one.

[BTD]

I'm assuming here that since you are relatively new to working, you still have your ATPL to get, but other than that you have all the licenses you need.

For the ATPL you require 75 hrs instrument. This time is IMC, simulated IMC time, or 25 hrs simulator. Not IFR flight plan time. So log only the time you are flying IMC.

Once you have your ATPL, nobody really cares. Most logbooks have a column for IMC or Actual IFR. As far as Transport is concerned, as long as you have met the currency requirements, they don't care what you log. As far as other operators are concerned, once you are flying for a company that does IFR flying, it doesn't matter. They know that if you have been flying an IFR job for a year or two, you can probably get around IMC.

For me personally, I log only the time I am in cloud. And I ball park it for each day based on the conditions. So for my 4000+ hrs, around 600 is actual IMC. The only person who is going to look at that now, is me. In my electronic logbook I also have a column for IFR flight plan time that I put in. But 98% of my flying is on an IFR flight plan, so that number is meaningless. I just threw it in there early on, and keep it because it only takes a fraction of a second to fill in. Hope that helps.

BTD

[metal]

I'm assuming its CAR 401.08 that you got that excerpt from

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

I'm fairly certain that they're referring to IMC, as I've never really seen a requirement anywhere to log specifically that you're flying VFR, or IFR.

[xsbank]

This has been argued back and forth on this site for years - do a search for all the various definitions of "IFR."

I do lots more when I file IFR than just following the instruments about. In fact, just keeping the wings level is probably the easiest part of IFR... If I file, I log it. Looking at the ground only confuses and complicates the process...

Do you look all around to see if there is a tiny bit of ground showing, therefore not IFR?

I think its a specious argument. File and log it.

[Chaxterium]

I was always told that whenever you have no choice but to fly by the instruments, log actual. So for example if I'm filed IFR but it's day VMC, I don't log it. But if it's night VMC over the ocean and I have no reference to the ground, I'm logging every second of it. This keeps me pretty close to the 10% mark.

[ybwflyguy]

Next time you're at the Transport Office, read the "So you want an ATPL" flyer. I may be wrong but I seem to remember them defining instrument time (the 75 hours needed for the A's) as to be IN or ABOVE cloud. Although as with other terms they use (e.g. cross-country) it's open to different interpretation by every inspector.

[KK7]

I just don't picture people with a pad of paper on their knee, recording every minute they are are popping in and out of cloud:
15:46 - in cloud
15:47 - out of cloud
15:49 - in cloud briefly, through some wispiness then back in cloud
15:51 - out of cloud.
. . .

It's different if you're collecting instrument time to satisfy an ATPL requirement because there appears to be a variety of different interpretations of what kind of instrument time you need depending on the TC inspector and/or region. I have never encountered someone who is short instrument time by any means to get their ATPL though, and never heard of any problems with an inspector refusing to issue an ATPL for lack of instrument time.

Once you have your ATPL, WHO CARES how many minutes you've specifically flown in cloud? When flying IFR, and not necessarily in IMC, is your primary means of attitude maintaining and navigation by looking outside, or looking at the instruments? Usually, it's the instruments since that's the mode of flight you're in. That isn't to say you aren't looking outside to check for traffic, cross check the information you're getting from instruments, and enjoying the view. But your primary means of flying the airplane is via instruments, and that is most definitely instrument time and I don't think anyone can debate that. If filed IFR, this is how you should be flying.

If you're flying and you are NOT flying using the instruments for attitude and navigation, then this is NOT instrument time. Presumably you wouldn't be filed IFR either.

Once again, there is a simple test - ask yourself, "am I primarily using the instruments to fly, or not?" If the answer is yes, then log the time as instrument. If the answer is no, then don't log the time as instrument.

[Tim]

i think the fact that everyone has given you a different answer should tell you something.

notice how nobody has a reference to prove their point? you can basically do whatever you want, so that makes everything that everyone has said right, but there isnt just ONE right way.

you can call TC and ask them for an 'official' opinion.

[raven54]

I personally log every time I enter or exit cloud. I don't know what KK7 is talking about, he's crazy.

[Never Mind]

I work in a 705 operation and always file IFR regardless of what the weather conditions are like. First of all what I use is the air time(not flight time) as the basis of the calculation. Then I subtract 0.2 for every t'off/ldg. This gives me my instrument time.

Example: Flight 320/1 has 10 legs and a total flight time of 5.0 hours. The total air time for that day was 4.0 hours. 10 x 0.2 = 2.0 (hours). Therefore the instrument time that goes into my log bog is 4.0 - 2.0 = 2.0 (hours).

Never Mind

[raven54]

I work in a 705 operation and always file IFR regardless of what the weather conditions are like. First of all what I use is the air time(not flight time) as the basis of the calculation. Then I subtract 0.2 for every t'off/ldg. This gives me my instrument time.

Example: Flight 320/1 has 10 legs and a total flight time of 5.0 hours. The total air time for that day was 4.0 hours. 10 x 0.2 = 2.0 (hours). Therefore the instrument time that goes into my log bog is 4.0 - 2.0 = 2.0 (hours).

Never Mind

Pretty much the same program I'm on...if I'm not referencing a VNC or WAC then it's instrument time for me.

[Cat Driver]

IFR is the acronym for " Instrument flight rules "

Arguing about the meteorological conditions during flight is rather senseless as the flight was performed under instrument flight rules.

If you have to keep track of time in cloud you have a problem that can only be overcome by becoming more comfortable with flying without any outside visual clues.

Anxiety due to not being comfortable in your environment at a given time is counter productive to safe flight, maybe you need further training?

[Big Pistons Forever]

[quote="KK7"]I just don't picture people with a pad of paper on their knee, recording every minute they are are popping in and out of cloud:
15:46 - in cloud
15:47 - out of cloud
15:49 - in cloud briefly, through some wispiness then back in cloud
15:51 - out of cloud.
. . .

I actually flew a few times with a guy that did this. One day we were in and out of some puffy Cu and he had a stop watch on his knee board. He would start the clock every time we ducked into the cloud and stop it when we popped out. He probably clicked his stop watch 30 times during the flight On another flight the only cloud was a lens of stratus about 300 feet thick so he asked for a block of airspace so we could fly in the middle of it so he could log more IMC time

[Dagwood]

If it's not VFR as per CARS 602.114 and 602.115, I count it as IMC or IFR or CLOUD or whatever column is in the logbook.

If you are within 500' vertically of a cloud, it is not VFR by the aforementioned CARs, so you can count it as IFR, but you'd better be on an IFR flight plan or you're not following the rules.

Edited for spelling

[alti2d]

It seems everyone has their own interpretations...

So, where

CAR 401.08

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

and given the definitions under general provisions

"IFR" - means instrument flight rules; (IFR)

"IFR aircraft" - means an aircraft operating in IFR flight; (aéronef IFR)

"IFR flight" - means a flight conducted in accordance with the instrument flight rules; (vol IFR)

"IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud; (IMC ou conditions météorologiques de vol aux instruments)

"VMC" or "visual meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions equal to or greater than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud. (VMC ou conditions météorologiques de vol à vue)

found here http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 1-1104.htm


the logbook publishers have it wrong and should include a column for "IFR" (or you could just write it in a blank spot) and when you fly you should be logging your IFR flight or VFR flight time as well. But who really does that??

[FlaplessDork]

It seems everyone has their own interpretations...

So, where

CAR 401.08

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

and given the definitions under general provisions

"IFR" - means instrument flight rules; (IFR)

"IFR aircraft" - means an aircraft operating in IFR flight; (aéronef IFR)

"IFR flight" - means a flight conducted in accordance with the instrument flight rules; (vol IFR)

"IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud; (IMC ou conditions météorologiques de vol aux instruments)

"VMC" or "visual meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions equal to or greater than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud. (VMC ou conditions météorologiques de vol à vue)

found here http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 1-1104.htm


the logbook publishers have it wrong and should include a column for "IFR" (or you could just write it in a blank spot) and when you fly you should be logging your IFR flight or VFR flight time as well. But who really does that??

In bold it refers to flight conditions, not whether you filed IFR or VFR.

[pilotsteve]

What's a "flight condition"? From context it seems that it refers to whether the flight is operated under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules.

[Hedley]

FWIW I log actual instrument flight time whenever:

1) I am operating IFR
2) I would be unhappy to lose my attitude indicator

Some people log actual on top of a cloud deck, in the bright sunshine, which I don't. See above.

Yes, after you get your ATPL your instrument time doesn't matter as much. However if you want to get your name into the DPE pool you need 500 hrs instrument, IIRC.

Some people log all the time they are operating IFR as actual instrument time, which I don't think is the intent of the CARs, but YMMV.

Anyone can glance at your logbook and see if you're padding the actual. If you have 2000TT and have logged 1500 actual and 1000 on floats, well, that's a bit hard to believe unless you're doing something pretty unusual.

[Never Mind]

If you need a controlled rest period while in the cockpit, and transfer control to your partner, would you time your catnap and then deduct it from your flight time? If you need to step out of the cockpit to look after physiological needs will you time your stay in the lavatory and then subtract it from your logbook? Technically you should but of course everyone can see it's an exaggeration.

When it comes to logging actual instrument time one needs to be balanced and tempered with honesty. Personally I feel pressing a stopwatch every time you go in and out of cloud to add to your work load, if not even distracting from the task at hand. Your attention needs to be focused on flying the plane, monitoring the instruments and/or the autopilot, listening to the radio for traffic etc.

My 1.9(U.S.) cents,

Never Mind

[oates76]

Thanks for all the help guys, seems I've opened a can of worms. I'm not sure if I feel better now or am more confused But I see what you're all saying. I think I'll give my local inspector a ring just to see what they say since that's where I'll be handing in my logbook for my ATPL.

Oates

[metal]

Post up what their interpretation is; it'd be good to see how they view it.

[cptnCanada]

I've heard of pilots logging both ways and having no problems getting their ATPLs signed off in the end, so take your pick.

I log IMC = IFR FLIGHT - 0.2 ground, regardless of WX.

[jldefoa]

I'm a 700+ hour pilot (PPL SEL Night VFR-OTT IR(G3). Since I got my instrument rating <2 years ago I've wondered about how to log instrument experience too. I even got myself a new watch with a stopwatch (and an E6B) to keep track of time "in cloud." I've been surprised how little time one generally spends "in the soup" on the average IFR flight. If time "in cloud" was the only time that counted as instrument time there is no way any private pilot could maintain recency.

CAR 421.46(2)(b)(ii) states the applicant for an instrument rating "shall have completed a minimum of: 40 hours of INSTRUMENT TIME of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time." The intention is to ensure the wana-be instrument pilot has enough TIME FLYING a real or simulated AIRCRAFT BY "scanning THE GAUGES," and whether it was done in in real or simulated instrument conditions is rather immaterial.

As we all know, once the instrument rating is obtained, maintaining currency can become a challenge, especially for the private pilot. In the case that one is more than 12 months past the successful completion of an instrument rating flight test
CAR 401.05(3) states that, "No holder of an instrument rating can exercise the privileges refered to in Section 401.47 unless the holder has ... (b&c) within the six months preceeding the flight, ACQUIRED SIX HOURS of INSTRUMENT TIME and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, IN ACTUAL or SIMULATED instrument meteorolgical CONDITIONS, (b) or in a Level B, C or D simulator, of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision .... (c) while acting as a flight instructor."

Both the training requirements 421.46(2)(b)(ii) and the recency requirements 401.05(3)(b&c) mention INSTRUMENT TIME and that the IMC can be actual or simulated (e.g. the only fog for miles is on your goggles). So "recency" requires the same controlling of the aircraft by "scanning the gauges" that the flight test requires. If "George" is flying the plane and you are doing anything other than controlling the aircraft (one can fly approaches on a flight test using the autopilot but it isn't "hands off" - you are "flying the autopilot") then it shouldn't count as instrument time. Clearly, if one is "VFR On Top" while on an IFR flight plan one shouldn't log "instrument time," while if you are busy flying a hold in severe clear CAVOK you should.

Now, as you all know,
CAR 401.08(2) states the pilot's "personal log ... shall contain ... information in respect of ... the FLIGHT CONDITIONS with respect to day, night, VFR, IFR."

While talking about flight CONDITIONS it lists acronyms for RULES, despite the existence of two acronyms, VMC & IMC, for meteorologic CONDITIONS.

The NavCanada website has a button labelled "FLIGHT CONDITIONS" which links to a (number of) map(s) which show observed or forecast FLIGHT CONDITIONS across the country reporting VFR, MVR or IFR weather. One can debate whether "Flight Conditions" is the most appropriate term.
http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca: ... NS_Inconnu

"Weather Conditions" OR "Weather Category" would be the most logical alternatives to "Flight Conditions" (and might avoid confusion with CAR 401.08). We can see "IFR weather" & "IFR conditions" used in place of "IMC" in the TC-AIM, in:
MET 3.3.9 Grafical Area Forecast (GFA): Comments Box: "... An IFR outlook ... is included ..., indicating the main areas where the IFR WEATHER is expected, the cause of the IFR WEATHER ... . In the example given, IFR CONDITIONS caused by .... For meteorological purposes, the IFR outlook is based on the following [table]: [column 1] CATEGORY: IFR, MVFR, VFR ..."
So to the meteorologist, IFR weather conditions are just one of three weather CATEGORIES.

So who erred? Did Transport Canada mean METEOROLOGIC conditions and were just sloppy, using VFR & IFR when they meant to write VMC & IMC? Or is NavCanada wrong to label their map as "Flight Condtions" when "Weather Conditions" or "Weather Categories" would be more appropriate?

In the TC-AIM the term "flight condition(s)" appears seven times:
GEN 5.1 Glossary of Aeronautical Terms: Transition - The general term that describes the change from one phase of flight or FLIGHT CONDITIONS to another; e.g. transition from enroute flight to the approach or transition from instrument flight to visual flight.
MET 1.1.6 Plot Reports: PIREP - Pilots are urged to volunteer reports ... meteorological information ... significant to safe or comfortable FLIGHT CONDITIONS.
MET 1.3.8 ATC Weather Assistance: The following information should be given to ATC as early as possible when requesting clearance to detour around weather activity: flight conditions IMC or VMC;
RAC 1.1.1 (i) Flight information service is provided by ATC units to assist pilots of aircraft by supplying information concerning known hazardous FLIGHT CONDITIONS. This information will include data concerning unfavourable FLIGHT CONDITIONS ...
RAC 11.6.1(g) Flight Planning Procedures: Routes: Pilots of potential non-stop westbound flights .... after assessing the onward FLIGHT CONDITIONS, will advise ATC of the intended destination ....
AIR 1.5.7 Downdraft and Turbulence: ... the danger to aircraft is enhanced by the lack of warning of the unusual flight conditions.

So we have "flight conditions" applying to "instrument flight to visual flight," in-flight weather encountered, IMC or VMC, hazards to flight, weather along the intended route in general, and the specific hazard of downdrafts & turbulence. Weather "flight conditions" are not necesarilly IFR or VFR. Turbulence is neither VFR nor IFR. Rain is neither VFR, MVFR nor IFR, though the associated decreased visibility is.

While there is no exact reference to "flight conditions" as "VFR, IFR" in the TC-AIM as in CAR 401.08(2), which TC-AIM use is closest to the intention of that section?

First, I want to recognize that someone earlier listed the definintions of" IFR," "IFR aircraft," "IFR flight," "IMC," & "VMC." We know that IFR & VFR apply to two different sets of RULES which regulate which weather conditions instrument & non-instrument pilots can fly in and how. The meteorlogists also use those terms, as well as MVFR, to summarize the observed & forcast weather for a station or region, which generally sumarizes which kind(s) of flying can be done in that weather. Where the weather is listed as MVFR it generally means one can fly VFR but sometimes to do so is foolhardy, while at stations reporting IFR weather generally means one cannot fly VFR, but there are exceptions. At an uncontrolled airport with 2.5 SM visibility and a 950' AGL ceiling a VFR pilot can legally practice circuits, and Special VFR lets a VFR pilot get in or out of a control zone with IFR visibilities (it uses uncontrolled airspace rules at a controlled airport). While the meteorologist's "IFR weather" criteria for the GFA's IFR outlook are fixed (reflecting controlled airspace rules) IMC is a moving target, with different visibility requirements for night, for controlled airspace, and for below or above 100' AGL in uncontrolled airspace.

Back to comparing the TC-AIM use to CAR 401.08(2). Remember that the other "flight conditions" that must be logged are Day or Night. Like, VFR & IFR they are mutually exclusive, but could be sequential. A flight can start in daylight and end at night, or start at night and end in daylight. In the log the flight will be divided between the day and night columns. Likewise a pilot may depart IFR to get through weather, then cancel and continue VFR, or depart VFR and file IFR to transit enroute weather, or for the descent, approach & landing at the destination. TC-AIM GEN 5.1 "Transition" refers to "phase of flight" and gives "enroute" and "approach" as examples. It refers to "flight conditions" and gives "instrument flight" and "visual flight" as examples. The example refers to transition from instrument flight to visual flight, as when an IFR flight is "cleared to the visual approach." At that point the pilot stops logging instrument time and logs visual time instead.

So, after all that, it appears that if one is not navigating and keeping the aircraft upright by looking outside for a real horizon (vs enjoying the view), i.e. one is flying on instuments and the extant "flight condition" is IFR. Obviously, if you are cruising along in clear air in Class A airspace, where all operations are IFR, the flight condition to be logged is IFR.

Now it looks like I've got a chance to maintian my IFR recency without having to go launch into IMC for an hour each month, or drive hundreds of km to the nearest simulator or flight training device. I just have to file IFR and fly on instruments, and do at least one approach to minimums each month.

Regards,

J L De Foa, MD, CAME

P.S. I've sent an e-mail to TC-CA to confirm this interpretation.

[trey kule]

It is a sad commentary on our regulator's ability to make and communicate clear definitions.
Or perhaps it is a sad commentary on how many people can view the same thing differently.

Glad this is not an issue for me anymore, though I dont recall it ever being. It seems to be a more recent issue with the number of people trying to get upgrades with the bare minimums.Just an observation. Quite frankly if you are sitting at flt level360, and there is not a cloud in the sky, the flying is no different than if you are flying through a cloud on the descent or climb...so I have trouble believing TC is the problem here.

LIke kk7 posted about logging time in and out, or even through and above. There are more important things to do in the cockpit, and I really can only expect TC would have an issue with the way you are logging it if you showed up for your "eh" license with the very minimum

[Cat Driver]

When flying floats how should I log it?

Should I log taxi time and next the time on the step, should I keep a separate entry for step turns with only one float in the water?