Airspeed Limitations, CAR 602.32 amended 2010/11/10

[RenegadeAV8R]

CAR 602.32 that specifies the airspeed limitations of 250 kt below 10,000 ft ASL and 200 kt below 3,000 ft AGL, within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome, was amended on November 10th, 2010.

The complete section was reworded, and the provision that used to allow to exceed these limits on departure was removed (shown in bold, below).


The way CAR 602.32 is now, the airspeed is limited to 200 kt below 3,000 AGL, even on departure.

Am I missing something?



Reference below:

New CAR 602.32 - http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#602_32

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)


Old CAR 602.32 - http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 2-3778.htm

Previous version - 602.32 - 1996/10/10
602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.

[kevenv]

The way CAR 602.32 is now, the airspeed is limited to 200 kt below 3,000 AGL, even on departure.

Am I missing something?

An interesting question as the briefing we received only focused on the 250kts below 10000 on departure. No one ever asked about blo 3000. I'll be interested to see what others think.

[Posthumane]

So does this mean no high speed fly-bys at airshows by the cf-18 and the like?

[slam525i]

So does this mean no high speed fly-bys at airshows by the cf-18 and the like?

(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

[SII]

This rule change is a direct result of sully's run in with the geese.

[iflyforpie]

I think they were just simplifying it a bit.

(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.

This takes care of higher departure speeds if required. It does mean however that you cannot arbitrarily exceed 200 knots if there isn't an operational requirement to do so.

[Rockie]

So does this mean no high speed fly-bys at airshows by the cf-18 and the like?

(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

The CAR's also do not apply to military aircraft.


102.01 These Regulations do not apply in respect of:

(a) military aircraft of Her Majesty in right of Canada when they are being manoeuvred under the authority of the Minister of National Defence;

(b) military aircraft of a country other than Canada, to the extent that the Minister of National Defence has exempted them from the application of these Regulations pursuant to subsection 5.9(2) of the Act; or

(c) model aircraft, rockets, hovercraft or wing-in-ground-effect machines, unless otherwise indicated in the Regulations.

[Posthumane]

Thanks for the reference about military aircraft. Brain fart on my part. I seem to recall some people complained when a CF-18 did a high speed fly-by at my city when we had the "Centennial of Powered Flight in Canada" aircraft come and visit. Since this was not an airshow but a gathering, they did not have a special operating certificate.

[RenegadeAV8R]

I think they were just simplifying it a bit.

(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.

This takes care of higher departure speeds if required. It does mean however that you cannot arbitrarily exceed 200 knots if there isn't an operational requirement to do so.

Thank you iflyforpie

[J31]

This rule change is a direct result of sully's run in with the geese.

I do not think that had much bearing. US Airways 1549 had just retracted the flaps was at 215 knots and 2800 ft when they struck the geese.

[beaverbob]

You are still missing a part:

NEW: (b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
Bob

[square]

Most annoying rule in the book, and one that not a single person gives a shit about other than to CYA.

[SII]

This rule change is a direct result of sully's run in with the geese.

I do not think that had much bearing. US Airways 1549 had just retracted the flaps was at 215 knots and 2800 ft when they struck the geese.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 12776.html

In March 2009, three months after a US Airways plane collided with a group of Canada Geese during takeoff and was forced to ditch into the Hudson River beside Manhattan, the government indicated it would force planes to slow down during takeoffs.

[BEFAN5]

Hmm. Not so sure. If I was going to have a flock of geese fly up infront of me and get sucked up into the fans, I'd rather have those extra knots to get back to the airport. Maybe he wouldn't have lost both engines if he was at 200 knots, but I also know he would have hit a building if he didn't have those extra knots.

[Rockie]

It's more about something coming through the windshield and taking your head off than going through the engine. For that reason I didn't go above 250/10000 even when it was allowed. What's the rush anyway?

[J31]

You are still missing a part:

NEW: (b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
Bob

I'm not sure if your quote was directed at me or not but there is more to that CAR....and also a similar regulations in the US:

Old CAR's
(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.

New CAR's
(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

The flaps up minimum safe speed for most transport category is around 200 kts. I suspect the that it was about 210 kts for the A320 weight. Some of the larger aircraft the min speed may be even higher at heavy weights.

[J31]

Here is the whole article SII.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 12776.html

OTTAWA — Everyone knows airplanes and birds don't mix.

And the federal government has now banned high-speed takeoffs for planes — limiting takeoff speed to 250 knots — to reduce the chance and severity of collisions with the feathered flying flight risks.

According to Transport Canada, there have been 1,694 bird strikes in the past three years.

In March 2009, three months after a US Airways plane collided with a group of Canada Geese during takeoff and was forced to ditch into the Hudson River beside Manhattan, the government indicated it would force planes to slow down during takeoffs.

The changes to the Canadian Aviation Regulations came into effect this past Wednesday.

"Speed limitations for departing aircraft will better protect air travellers and flight crew,” said Transport Minister . Strahl. "This new safety measure will help prevent aviation safety incidents upon take-off.”

According to the government, lower-speed takeoffs reduce the risk of mid-air collisions, particularly with birds, which can disable wing tips, dent the fuselages, foul the motor, and – most dangerously - break the windshield.

Since migrating birds usually fly below 3,000 feet, once a plane is safely in the air, the chances of collisions are low.

In the U.S., bird-plane collisions reportedly cost $600 million a year, and have caused more than 200 deaths since 1988.

Most collisions occur at night or in clouds, when both birds and pilots are flying blind.

bryn.weese@sunmedia.ca

With the new CAR's the only thing that has changed is departure speeds are now limited at 200 kts below 3000 ft and 250 kts below 10000 ft or minimum flaps up speed. There no longer is the option to accelerate above those speeds in Canada. Not much has changed as it is standard operating for most operators in Canada to respect the 200/250 kt speeds. There has always been a 250 kt (or flaps up min speed) below 10000 ft speed limit in the US.

I suspect it is political spin to appear to be doing something. Granted it may slow down the speed demons that would wind the speed up to 340 kts at 1000 AGL.

Point being is the US Air flight 1549 was within the speed restrictions at the time and would still be today. Regardless of the speed striking a 7-10 pound goose is going to ruin your day at any speed.

[Hedley]

lower-speed takeoffs reduce the risk of mid-air collisions, particularly with birds

Not sure I buy that "see and avoid" works with birds at 250K but not at 300k.

[beaverbob]

You are still missing a part:

NEW: (b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
Bob

I'm not sure if your quote was directed at me or not but there is more to that CAR....and also a similar regulations in the US:


Not directed at you, but it seems to me that ATC has the final say according to the above quote.
Bob

[SII]

Here is the whole article SII.

that's why I provided the link.

Nothing really changes with this rule, you just can't have a hundred plus people survive a plane crash and appear to do nothing about the cause of it.

[CD]

The rule change is not a result of US1549. This particular change was accepted through the CARAC process in 2002 but didn't make it to Gazette Part I until 2009:

Consultation

The members of the Commercial Air Service Operations Technical Committee of the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council, which includes representatives of government, aeronautical associations (e.g. Air Transport Association of Canada, Air Line Pilots Association – Canada, and Aerospace Industries Association of Canada), unions (e.g. Teamsters Canada), operators and airlines (e.g. Air Canada) were consulted, and recommended this amendment during meetings held on February 2002.

This amendment was pre-published in the Canada Gazette, Part I, on April 4, 2009, followed by a 30-day public comment period. Only one comment was received, suggesting clarification in the Regulatory Impact Assessment Statement. The Regulatory Impact Assessment Statement was changed accordingly to ensure that the intent of the Regulations was accurately described.

SOR/2010-219 October 21, 2010 - Regulations Amending the Canadian Aviation Regulations (Parts I and VI - Airspeed Limitations on Take-off)

[J31]

Here is the whole article SII.

that's why I provided the link.

Nothing really changes with this rule, you just can't have a hundred plus people survive a plane crash and appear to do nothing about the cause of it.

For those who did not check the link I felt the complete article need to be read to get the right context. You are right...not much changing but a good political way to spin it.

Cheers!

[kevenv]

If the 200 kts blo 3000' is for safety, why does it only apply around controlled airports?

[RVgrin]

If the 200 kts blo 3000' is for safety, why does it only apply around controlled airports?

I would never presume to guess the rule makers' thinking, but one argument in favour of this discrepancy is that the threat of mid-air collisions can reduced both by ATC in a controlled environment and by the Pilot getting the f*-K away from an uncontrolled airports as quickly as possible.

[swordfish]

If the 200 kts blo 3000' is for safety, why does it only apply around controlled airports?

Chaa-Ching!!!