Annual Maintenance Costs?

[DanDare]

I'm a newbie and I'm curious as to what the annual maintenance cost for a single-engine private plane (say a Cessna 152 or 172, for example) would be in the GTA area?

I realise that much would depend upon hours flown, but is there a rough cost per hour, or per 100 hours, which would include any yearly mandated inspections, as well as oil & filter changes, gas, parking (either hangar or field) etc.?

[iflyforpie]

$2000.00/year for an annual is a pretty good average. Since you have to do one every year anyways it doesn't change much with hours flown, so the more hours you can fly, the lower this and other fixed costs (insurance, parking/hangar) will be per hour.

[CpnCrunch]

Bear in mind that owning an old aeroplane is a little bit like playing the lottery but having to PAY OUT instead of win. If you're unlucky you could end up spending $10k in maintenance in a year. This is most likely to happen the first year you own the plane.

[Hedley]

All good advice above.

An annual on a simple fixed-gear, fixed-pitch prop light aircraft like a 172 is going to take 16 hrs of labour or two man-days. One day firewall forward, and one day on the airframe. Multiply that by your shop rate.

Snags are extra, and yes, there will be snags.

And hopefully your logs aren't too screwed up with respect to AD compliance. Lots of people don't bother to log AD's which are NOT applicable, and years down the road this can snowball into a massive headache.

[DanDare]

WOW!!!....Thanks, everyone. So it seems that owning a private plane is the airbourne equivalent of owning a boat -- which I'm told stands for "Break Out Another Thousand". In that vein, I guess you could then say a plane means "Paying Lots Annually Never Ends".

I actually asked because I was trying to figure the approximate annual costs to be shared among members of a group-owned plane, and how these total costs would compare to paying say, $140/hr to rent, over a number of years.

Any ideas?

[PAJ]

My specific details for 2010 .... Please note that YMMV
Shared PA28-181 with two other friends/partners
I flew 45 hours in 2010
Very simple math - my per hour cost was $125.00
This includes my share of everything for the year eg. insurance, hangar, annual, fuel, oil, reserve fund, fix this minor whatever, fix that etc. etc.

So, in simple terms (excluding the initial $$ to buy the a/c), I am flying for approximately the same hourly cost as if I was renting. The per hour cost goes down the more I fly. Starts to get interesting at about the 100 hour mark but for me, that is just not practical.

This formula can easily get blown out of the water if some major maintenance issue were to surprise us. Any money spent on a thorough pre-purchase inspection is well worth it.

Hope this helps and good luck. Feel free to PM me if you want more specific detail.

PAJ

[DanDare]

Thanks PAJ, your figures are exactly what I was looking for.....

So basically, putting aside convenience and prestige factors, a point must be reached where each ‘plane partner’ can justify the total share costs (including purchase price) to himself, in comparison to what he’d pay in rental costs for the same number of flying hours.

From what you've explained, per hour 'ownership' costs would decrease as flying time increased – which in turn would increase fuel costs and…….I think I’ll take you up on your offer. A PM will be winging its way to you shortly. Thanks!

[LousyFisherman]

Calgary, C150, 10 person partnership which makes insurance more expensive

$2000/year annual
$2400/year insurance

The partnership charges each person $50/month fixed costs and $30/hour dry.
Fuel is 5 gallons/20 litres per hour.

Of the $30/hour:
$2.00/hour propeller reserve
$13.50/hour engine reserve
$14.50/hour operating costs

Operating costs include any extra maintenance required, CFS subscription, NavCanada fees, equipment certifications outside of the annual.

These numbers allow us to carry a large operating surplus while fixing every little thing that breaks (door panels, wing covers etc) as well as achieve 100% reserves by the time the engine is timed out.


YMMV
LF

[Hedley]

Free advice, worth exactly what you paid me for it:

Before you get an airplane, get an AME. Most people do it the other 'way round, which can be very expensive.

When you see an airplane you like, have your AME look at the specs on it. If he's experienced on type, he can reject most aircraft without even seeing them. All he needs is photocopies of the logs and some photos, which is a lot cheaper than looking at it in person, if it is distant.

Once you and your AME have agreed upon a prospective airplane, have him do an annual inspection as the pre-purchase inspection. Any snags he finds, you negotiate with the seller, and you get a fresh annual from YOUR AME when you buy it. It goes without saying that he researches all the AD's for compliance.

I wish I had a nickle for every time a new owner told me that his first annual was expensive. Sigh.

For example. Let's say you look at an aircraft with a shiny paint job and say gosh, it's got a cherry engine - only 100 SMOH. But your AME looks at the logs and says yes, but it was overhauled 20 years ago and was never pickled, so it's going to suffer from internal corrosion requiring a premature overhaul when you start to use it. AME's know this sort of stuff.

Also, research the airframe, engine and prop Airworthiness Directives for the type you are interested in. Be aware that a tiny change in year can make a huge difference. For example, I would vastly prefer a C172 of vintage 1973 to 1976. I would not buy a C172 of vintage 1977 to 1980. Why?

This is the sort of research you need to do, before you buy. The good news is that all this stuff is on the internet. For example, you can search AD's in both Canada and the USA online now.

Avionics is now a HUGE portion of the purchase price of a light aircraft. You want to make sure it ALL WORKS and that the paperwork is in order. For example, you see a sexy G430 in the panel. Great. But is it a VFR or IFR installation?

Got a funny story about avionics for you. I know a guy, bought an airplane with a G430. Nice radio. Pretty colour display. Detailed pre-purchase inspection - or so he thought. The comm part worked ok, but he couldn't make the GPS or VOR work - he thought he wasn't pressing the right buttons, maybe bad software? I walk around the airplane and notice that there was no GPS antenna. No VOR antenna. That G430 was the prettiest little comm radio you ever saw

[Big Pistons Forever]

$2000.00/year for an annual is a pretty good average. Since you have to do one every year anyways it doesn't change much with hours flown, so the more hours you can fly, the lower this and other fixed costs (insurance, parking/hangar) will be per hour.

$ 2000/yr....That is what my 2 seat Grumman AA1B would have averaged over the 11 years I have owned it, except for the year it was $7000 (4 new cylinders, the cylinder barrels on the old ones were worn past oversize limits) and the year it was $3500 (new exhaust, the old one had more beads than an Indian Princess, and just could not be welded anymore). and the year it was $4000 (new transponder after the old one (Narco AT50) was deemed beyond economical repair).......

Still the advantages of having "my" airplane that is ready to go when I want to go, has no daily minimums, fuel surcharges etc etc, and wasn't abussed by the last renter pilot make ownership well worth the expense

[iflyforpie]

$2000.00/year for an annual is a pretty good average. Since you have to do one every year anyways it doesn't change much with hours flown, so the more hours you can fly, the lower this and other fixed costs (insurance, parking/hangar) will be per hour.

$ 2000/yr....That is what my 2 seat Grumman AA1B would have averaged over the 11 years I have owned it, except for the year it was $7000 (4 new cylinders, the cylinder barrels on the old ones were worn past oversize limits) and the year it was $3500 (new exhaust, the old one had more beads than an Indian Princess, and just could not be welded anymore). and the year it was $4000 (new transponder after the old one (Narco AT50) was deemed beyond economical repair).......

Still the advantages of having "my" airplane that is ready to go when I want to go, has no daily minimums, fuel surcharges etc etc, and wasn't abussed by the last renter pilot make ownership well worth the expense

Shhh.... I'm trying not to scare him off.

In all honesty, yours is more typical. If an engine overhaul is in there somewhere, just the labour to re and re plus the extra parts (new rubber mounts, hoses, ducts, baffles, etc) would be the price of an expensive annual in itself--never mind the cost of the overhaul AND the annual!!. Things like carbs, gyros, vacuum pumps, and radios can easily add $1000 or much more (we also had an AT50 go, and the AT165 plug-and-play replacement was just under $2000).

But do a proper pre-purchase and spend a little more money up front for a nice plane with no major ADs and a newer engine that has been overhauled in the last five years and you will probably do alright. But have a contingency fund set aside.

[DanDare]

WOW!!!! $7K + $3.5K + $4K = $14.5K for major maintenance items.
+ 11 mandatory inspections @ $2K per = $22K
= $36K/11 years, or $3,270/yr -- and this doesn't include the purchase of the plane itself of course, or 'minor' maintenance, fuel or any other expenses.

....Maybe I'll just take up stamp-collecting

$2000.00/year for an annual is a pretty good average. Since you have to do one every year anyways it doesn't change much with hours flown, so the more hours you can fly, the lower this and other fixed costs (insurance, parking/hangar) will be per hour.

$ 2000/yr....That is what my 2 seat Grumman AA1B would have averaged over the 11 years I have owned it, except for the year it was $7000 (4 new cylinders, the cylinder barrels on the old ones were worn past oversize limits) and the year it was $3500 (new exhaust, the old one had more beads than an Indian Princess, and just could not be welded anymore). and the year it was $4000 (new transponder after the old one (Narco AT50) was deemed beyond economical repair).......

Still the advantages of having "my" airplane that is ready to go when I want to go, has no daily minimums, fuel surcharges etc etc, and wasn't abussed by the last renter pilot make ownership well worth the expense

[PAJ]

From what you've explained, per hour 'ownership' costs would decrease as flying time increased – which in turn would increase fuel costs and……

Correct however the fixed costs (hanger, insurance, subscriptions, fees etc) don't increase with more flying time so the per hour cost decreases with more hours flown. Of course, your total costs are greater but then so is your fun!

[azimuthaviation]

Theres always the owner maintenance route.

[crazy_aviator]

One can never EVER EVER overemphasize the importance of a THOROUGH pre-purchase inspection. MOST shops dont have the ability to do it, Most prospective owners are either too ignorant or too cheap to get a proper one and in the end , the AME almost always takes the heat!

[DanDare]

I'm not looking for an argument in any way, but if MOST shops don't have the ability to do a thorough pre-purchase inspection, this would seem to suggest that most AME's lack the ability to do a proper job, as wouldn't they be the ones who'd actually do the inspection and sign it off?......So how would we find the shops who actually do a proper pre-purchase inspection?

One can never EVER EVER overemphasize the importance of a THOROUGH pre-purchase inspection. MOST shops dont have the ability to do it, Most prospective owners are either too ignorant or too cheap to get a proper one and in the end , the AME almost always takes the heat!

[crazy_aviator]

Yes, i implied but didnt say that most shops cant do a thorough PPI. Your right in reading me correctly, a proper PPI is roughly equivalent to an annual which should ALSO include a proper test flight AND a thorough avionics inspection,,,MOST shops DONT talk well between shop and flt staff and avionics PERIOD! A GOOD AME with abilities in all fields would be a great asset in a ppi.
Let me repeat that it is RARE to find a multi-talented AME who can do a thorough PPI on a complex A/C

[crazy_aviator]

Yes, i implied but didnt say that most shops cant do a thorough PPI. Your right in reading me correctly, a proper PPI is roughly equivalent to an annual which should ALSO include a proper test flight AND a thorough avionics inspection,,,MOST shops DONT talk well between shop and flt staff and avionics PERIOD! A GOOD AME with abilities in all fields would be a great asset in a ppi.
Let me repeat that it is RARE to find a multi-talented AME who can do a thorough PPI on a complex A/C

[Hedley]

it is RARE to find a multi-talented AME who can do a thorough PPI on a complex A/C

Not sure I understand that statement. If an AME is experienced on type, he will be familiar with the SB's and AD's on the airframe, engine and prop and will be able to very quickly poke at potential trouble spots.

For example, on a C182, you want to take a careful look at the rivets from the nose gear assembly to the firewall. And, is the firewall wrinkled? This can be a problem with the 182, with people not trimming properly on final, and not being able to hold the nose off during landing.

Once an experienced (on type) AME gives you the green light - which means no surprises on your first annual that he signs off - then you need an experienced pilot, with time on type, to fly the aircraft and make sure that everything works.

Attitude indicator stays upright? Heading indicator/HSI doesn't precess? Intercom (all mike and headset jacks) and audio panel works? GPS comes online with satellites and indicates correct track and groundspeed? Database current? Comm radios both work, including squelch, volume, sidetone, transmit power and clarity? Transponder works? Indicating altitude and encoder agree, according to ATC? VORs function correctly? LOC? GS? ADF? DME? Electric trim? Autopilot holds heading and altitude without wandering? Coupling? Engine run smoothly and develop good power? Fuel flow correct? Engine and fuel gauges working correctly? Flaps and gear work, including indicators? etc.

[DanDare]

Hedley, I may be completely wrong here but I think you and Crazy_Aviator may be saying the same thing, in different ways.

As I understand it, he seems to be saying that in the majority of shops the personnel involved in the mechanical, flight and avionics depts don't always communicate well with each other, so info regarding problems discovered during the PPI which may affect more than one area, may not be passed between them. And therefore an AME who ensures a proper PPI is a rarity in most shops.

You appear to be pointing out that the AME basically does the structural/engine inspection, and the flight and avionics tests are usually performed by others.

Being a newbie, there is the distinct possibility that I've misunderstood you both.

However I'm still not clear on how a prospective purchaser would find the minority of "good" shops that Crazy_Aviator believes can carry out a proper PPI. In other words, how would a purchaser find a shop which would perform a proper PPI, to ensure necessary repairs in all areas became known to him BEFORE he made the purchase?

[azimuthaviation]

Has anyone thought to specialise in pre purchase inspections? if someone did the pre-purchase but had no potential of having a personal stake by being an AME afterwards then his opinions would be more unbiased and reliable. Plus the overhead of such an organization would be considerably lower I would think, and could offer a better rate for the same quality of work.

[DanDare]

I'd imagine that to offer such a service, as Hedley has pointed out already, you'd require an AME who is highly-experienced in all types of a/c. And you'd also need an avionics expert of the same calibre. Either of these could also be the "test pilot" if they also had the degree of flying experience required.

But technicians of this calibre wouldn't come cheap, and is there enough business available to specialise in PPI's to make it financially feasible, as used planes aren't bought and sold as often as used cars? Additionally, if you're not being contracted to make the repairs your AME and avionics expert discover, you wouldn't be making any money at that end. And where exactly would you locate to get the maximum number of PPI's?

[iflyforpie]

A pre-purchase inspection is not an annual inspection. You shouldn't be paying an AME 80-100$/hr to find niggly sh!te that doesn't make a real difference in the long run.

Try to work it backwards. A good pre-purchase should be about 500$ and done by an AME who is familiar with the aircraft type at hand, but not directly involved in the maintenance of the subject aircraft. If you are lucky and can find an AME on the same field or nearby that can do the work, that should be about five hours of inspection.

What you are looking for is deal breakers and high ticket items. You aren't going to find a $200 cable that needs replacing economically with a pre-purchase. There are things that you do have to swallow sometimes as a new owner. What can happen too is if you spend too much on a pre-purchase, you might feel compelled to purchase the aircraft because of the money you've invested. Even if the owner comes down in price, it might not be worth living with a lemon.

Things like outstanding ADs, engine issues (leaks, uneven compression), damage history, and corrosion issues can all be quickly determined without the time or invasiveness of an annual inspection.

Another thing as mentioned is test flying the aircraft. You don't necessarily need an AME to do this, just make sure the airplane and all of its systems and accessories function as they should. If you are a newbie pilot, perhaps take someone you trust with more experience to help you test the aircraft and offer you advice or opinions.

If you have your heart set on a specific aircraft, seek out a type club. Most memberships are not too expensive and they often have checklists or publications for purchasing that type of aircraft.

[azimuthaviation]

Additionally, if you're not being contracted to make the repairs your AME and avionics expert discover, you wouldn't be making any money at that end.

Herein lies the value of such an endeavour, the objectivity. Without a personal financial stake dependant on the outcome of the inspection, a more reliable and honest assesment can be axpected.

[DanDare]

We can but hope that you will soon find a suitable philanthropic soul who will undertake the work and assume the heavy responsibility, free of any desire for financial gain.