Federal Court Decision re V-K JR, February 3, 2011

[MackTheKnife]

Going back to Aug 2009 when damages became a sure thing one can only estimate the amount but here's a stab to the end of Feb 2011. Keep in mind this is only ACPA's half .

Aug 2009 > Feb 2011 = 19 months

19 x 150 x 10,000 / 2 = approximately 14,250,000.00 that ACPA could very well be on the hook for to date. This is assuming all of the 150 litigants were retired and filed as of Aug 2009 ( Which btw they were )

Now start increasing that number at the rate of $750,000.00 per month for every month ACPA keeps it head buried in the sand over this failed issue.

Then, add to that figure an additional $10,000 /month for each and every additional forced retired pilot that decides to fight it from this day forward.

Can you say Strike Fund squandered ??? Can you say Special Assessment from now until forever ?

[Understated]

Correct. A very small number have fully mitigated by accepting work overseas or with corporate entities flying biz jets. Not all pilots hitting age 60 are B777 Captains. Some are A330, some are B767, some are A320 and a few are EMJ Captains. So there will definitely be a discount to the $10,000 per month ballpark. Probably about a 50% discount would be a safe assumption, regardless of the JR on mitigation.

We are averaging three pilots per month added to the list of complainants.

No matter how you cut it, the numbers will be large.

[HavaJava]

The Tribunal awarded damages to the pilots of the difference between their salary and their pension for the period subsequent to the August, 2009 Tribunal decision. For a B777 Captain that is approximately $10,000 per month

Seeing as the JR was not prescedent setting, it is doubtful that the 150 pilots will have their damages start from August 2009 as V & K did. But at the end of the day it still does not make a huge difference.

It may seem like there is more support for flypast60 on this forum because of the core group of posters who spend an inordinate amount of time spreading propaganda on this forum. I personally think this is part of the flypast60 game plan...spend massive amounts of time trying to swamp these forums and convert as many people as possible through fear and mis-information.

To those ACPA members and outside observers who may be succumbing to fear of liability please know that it IS still worth it to fight this even if only to delay mandatory retirement.

Using Understated's estimated of $10,000 a month for 150 pilots currently on the list works out to $18 million a year. If ACPA is assessed half of that and then assesses each of the 3000 members and equal share it works out to $3000 a pilot per year. The average salary difference as you step up to the next higher paying position in the company is $20,000 a year. The difference in seniority between pilots in a lower position compared to a higher position often only varies by 150 numbers. Therefore, for every year we delay mandatory retirement the majority of pilots actually still stand to benefit due to delaying career stagnation (or even lay-off) for a longer period of time.

To those ACPA members who are trash talking flypast60 or issuing threats (even veiled one), please stop now (the union leadership has also requested this). Threats will not accomplish anything and we have already seen that this group is spring loaded to sue. These guys are looking for anything to further their discrimination claim and try to squeeze as much money out of this as possible. Also, for those who are saying they will refuse to fly with these guys, although I understand your feelings I'm afraid your actions won't accomplish much. If taken to the extreme, and everyone refused to fly with these guys then the company would be forced to displace them with full pay and let them sit at home while they collect big fat pay cheques...which is what the majority of them seem to want in the first place!

So basically, it is worth it to let this play out in the courts (even if only to delay the inevitable) and stay as civilized as possible when having any face-to-face dealings with anyone in the FP60 group.

[hypoxic]

Ray, Is it true you are doing all of this work for free? There is nothing in it for you, money wise? There were rumours that if the ftyd crowd got a payout that you would get a nice cut!

[Rockie]

Seeing as the JR was not prescedent setting, it is doubtful that the 150 pilots will have their damages start from August 2009 as V & K did. But at the end of the day it still does not make a huge difference.

You may be looking at this from the wrong direction. "Not precedent setting" could also mean their damages will accrue from before August 28th, 2009. Like from the day they retired.

Using Understated's estimated of $10,000 a month for 150 pilots currently on the list works out to $18 million a year. If ACPA is assessed half of that and then assesses each of the 3000 members and equal share it works out to $3000 a pilot per year. The average salary difference as you step up to the next higher paying position in the company is $20,000 a year. The difference in seniority between pilots in a lower position compared to a higher position often only varies by 150 numbers. Therefore, for every year we delay mandatory retirement the majority of pilots actually still stand to benefit due to delaying career stagnation (or even lay-off) for a longer period of time.

So let me get this straight. You not only advocate discriminating against yourself and your peers, but you are in favour of making them pay for it to extend the practice as long as possible? Sounds a bit twisted to me especially when you consider that those people are going to get reinstated as Vilven and Kelly were, and you will have gained absolutely nothing.

Your advice to the members regarding conduct is a breath of fresh air though. Nice to see.

[vic777]

Ray, Is it true you are doing all of this work for free? There is nothing in it for you, money wise? There were rumours that if the ftyd crowd got a payout that you would get a nice cut!

Obviously Ray deserves to be paid for all the legal work he is doing. ACPA is paying their lawyers quite handsomely .... with your money, and mine, and Ray's.

[accumulous]

Using Understated's estimated of $10,000 a month for 150 pilots currently on the list works out to $18 million a year. If ACPA is assessed half of that and then assesses each of the 3000 members and equal share it works out to $3000 a pilot per year. The average salary difference as you step up to the next higher paying position in the company is $20,000 a year. The difference in seniority between pilots in a lower position compared to a higher position often only varies by 150 numbers. Therefore, for every year we delay mandatory retirement the majority of pilots actually still stand to benefit due to delaying career stagnation (or even lay-off) for a longer period of time.

Well folks, there you have it, finally.

The Cat is out of the bag.

Precisely what the Courts could see clean through the thin veil of hypocrisy.

Selling Discrimination for $3000 a year.

Hurry, hurry, hurry. Step right up folks. For only $250 a month after taxes you can whack a senior pilot and get that seat.

Absolutely, unequivocally brilliant.

The Dining Car on the Runaway Train is selling Snake Oil.

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

Ray, Is it true you are doing all of this work for free? There is nothing in it for you, money wise? There were rumours that if the ftyd crowd got a payout that you would get a nice cut!

Cheap shot. But you guys will never ever miss an opportunity to slander anyone, in whatever way possible, and the more subtle the slander, the better. How would you like me to start a rumour about you? Hypoxic did A, B, C.... Must be true, you know. Where there's smoke, there's fire!

Aren't retainer relationships private and confidential as between the solicitor and the client? Heck, we can't even get a straight answer from ACPA about how much of our money is being spent on our lawyers fighting this, even though we have a right to know, and you want to know how much the pilots that are not being represented by their own union are paying him to do the work that the union should be doing?

There is one way to find out. Hire him. See how much he charges you. I hope he charges you gazillions. He's worth it.

[Janszoon]

The way I see it, Flypast60 is going to happen eventually. However, those in support, who benefited from years of seeing those above them retire at 60 and have been able to plan their progress through the company by knowing when those above them will retire, are happy about the changes because they can now retire when they want. They benefited from the system they are trying to overthrow, and are wondering why those below them are against it?

The Flypast60 group has to understand the frustration and anger that the younger crowd has. It's not helping by saying "it's happening, deal with it". That lends credence to the younger crowd's assumptions that this is a selfish move. Is anybody working on a solution for ALL involved?

[Lost in Saigon]

The way I see it, Flypast60 is going to happen eventually. However, those in support, who benefited from years of seeing those above them retire at 60 and have been able to plan their progress through the company by knowing when those above them will retire, are happy about the changes because they can now retire when they want. They benefited from the system they are trying to overthrow, and are wondering why those below them are against it?

The Flypast60 group has to understand the frustration and anger that the younger crowd has. It's not helping by saying "it's happening, deal with it". That lends credence to the younger crowd's assumptions that this is a selfish move. Is anybody working on a solution for ALL involved?

The way I see it, those approaching 60 have seen their salaries and benefits slashed to unconceivable levels. We are ALL going to have to look at the future differently.

[Rockie]

Is anybody working on a solution for ALL involved?

That's a very good question. If you read these posts you will detect an overriding theme of getting the union and pilots to be realistic, and work on a solution for ALL involved. Because everybody here supporting the end of mandatory retirement knows it is going to happen no matter what, and fighting it harms the pilots in so many ways while not helping them in the slightest.

But, too many people cannot focus on anything but blaming the individuals for something that is happening in this country regardless and deriding their motives. I can't think of a more useless waste of people's time, energy and money.

To answer your question, no, nobody is working on a solution for all involved. What do you think we've been trying to get people to do?

[Janszoon]

The way I see it, those approaching 60 have seen their salaries and benefits slashed to unconceivable levels. We are ALL going to have to look at the future differently.

Of course the younger group understands that salaries have been slashed. To slash, you have to start from levels that were higher. Those beginning their careers are starting with the slashed salaries you speak of, and it seems to them that their salaries will be slashed further because those at the top want more. The young crowd didn't benefit from "the good times" of cheap prices, lower taxes and higher wages. They are working more for less, and now you are asking them to feel sorry for the older guys. Can you understand that frustration, or at least acknowledge that it exists?

The solution is not in shaming the younger crowd into feeling bad for raising concerns. The younger crowd is concerned about their welfare, as the older crowd is concerned about theirs. Flypast60 is going to happen, people will be angry, but don't make those who will seemingly be most negatively affected by this feel they can't raise their concerns.

Any time somebody says they are against Flypast60, immediately they are pounced upon. Concerned about Flypast60 and what that means for your career? Well you're just being discriminatory, because it WILL happen, so just deal with it. That isn't the way forward.

On the flip side, it should be understood that the Flypast60 group should not be individually derided for their support of the Flypast60 movement. The younger crowd needs to understand that it isn't about individuals, it's about society and the movement towards less discrimination in the workplace. It is the way forward, a positive for social change.

So how do you get these two groups to understand each other and work together towards a better outcome for all? It won't be through infighting and slander, but through understanding the concerns of each side and addressing them. I don't know how that can be done, but I'm hopeful that both groups can eventually work together to come to a solution that will not favour one side over the other.

[Rockie]

Any time somebody says they are against Flypast60, immediately they are pounced upon. Concerned about Flypast60 and what that means for your career? Well you're just being discriminatory, because it WILL happen, so just deal with it. That isn't the way forward.

You should read the ACPA forum. This is the only forum where anybody not towing the ACPA party line can say anything and get a little support, and even this place wasn't so even handed at one time. So you won't find anybody letting up here.

[accumulous]

So how do you get these two groups to understand each other and work together towards a better outcome for all? It won't be through infighting and slander, but through understanding the concerns of each side and addressing them. I don't know how that can be done, but I'm hopeful that both groups can eventually work together to come to a solution that will not favour one side over the other.

That’s a welcome social comment on a case study of discrimination that will likely become recommended reading for a lot Canadian law students. It is being addressed through 6 different venues all the way up to and including Parliament.

The odds of holding any counseling sessions in the near future disappeared off the radar about the same time the ACPA Forum was put in lockdown and senior pilots were denied access to meetings. The latest MEC missive contains a call to maintain the same altitude and heading. That, folks, is all she wrote.

A more stable approach will very likely be one that uses a large degree of chaperoning. The Human Rights Commission often includes suggestions for remedial guidelines when it closes a case. It wouldn’t be a stretch to suggest that is exactly where this is headed.

There’s no doubt that in the very near future, that will take place though actions of the Corporation, as directed by the CHRC. It would not come as any surprise at all that the first inkling of what might be in store on that slate will come embedded with the forthcoming Canada Industrial Relations Board release.

[Morry Bund]

It may seem like there is more support for flypast60 on this forum because of the core group of posters who spend an inordinate amount of time spreading propaganda on this forum. I personally think this is part of the flypast60 game plan...spend massive amounts of time trying to swamp these forums and convert as many people as possible through fear and mis-information.

Ha. Ha Ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha. Ha Ha. You funny man!

[Doug Moore]

I'd like to introduce you to a dog I just picked up at the SPCA. I've named him AK-PAW. He's a little perplexed with what's going on around him, but I have every confidence that with a little guidance and training, he will eventually figure out that what he perceives to be a threat to his meal today will not in reality be the case tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWjzCRC174&feature=fvsr

[Norwegianwood]

I'd like to introduce you to a dog I just picked up at the SPCA. I've named him AK-PAW. He's a little perplexed with what's going on around him, but I have every confidence that with a little guidance and training, he will eventually figure out that what he perceives to be a threat to his meal today will not in reality be the case tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWjzCRC174&feature=fvsr

Too funny Doug, alas methinks little AK-PAW will have to be hauled off to obedience school for retraining as he (she) seems to think this is normal behaviour

NW

[rudder]

It's not the only difference: The other is the cost associated with planning; the time required to replace a pilot who has retired.


If you look at the Equipment Bids, you will notice that retiring pilot names are stricken off the list as much as 18 months before the pilot retires. In other words, the Company has been given an 18 month time allotment to replace a pilot. Most of the retiring pilots are coming off the B777 Captain position. So, how long does it take to replace a B777 Captain?

Well let's see. It takes approximately 2 months to train an A330 Captain to replace a B777 Captain. However, before the A330 Captain can be trained off, a B767 Captain has to be trained in order to replace him. Before that can happen, an A320 captain would have to be trained on to the B767. This exercise is repeated right down to the lowest equipment/position on the equipment list.

At the end of the day, the Company almost needs to know 18 months into the future as to their hiring requirements, just to replace one B777 Captain.

At the present time, the Company knows exactly the number of pilots they need to hire, because pilots are leaving at the top level at a pre-determined date (within a small margin of error - if pilots were to leave any earlier than 60, they would be financially penalised on their pension).

Now, let’s suppose that pilots, who are mostly B777 Captains, are given the choice of date as to when to retire. How can the Company plan for this? For example, one B777 captain may still wish to retire at age 60. However, another one would like to go until 60½ , while another wants to go until 61⅜ , and another goes to 62¾, etc. Everybody will be going at a different time than expected, not giving the Company any notice as to when they want to leave.

The Company’s planning is shot out the window. Either they will hire too many pilots (most of the excess will sit on the B777, as you've seen with the latest bid with Vilven & Kelly being listed as additional pilots to the needed requirement of pilots), or not enough to crew the airline.

So, if you don’t have enough pilots, how much will this cost the Company in cancelled flights over an 18-months period?





Now, let’s take everything that I said above and take it to the extreme.

On what equipment/position will most pilots who are between the ages of 60 and 65 find themselves on?
On what equipment/position will most pilots who are over the age of 65 find themselves on?

If you answered B777 Captain and B777 F/O respectively, then you are correct.
So again, taking this to the extreme, let’s assume that every single B777 Captain is between 60 and 65, and every F/O is over 65. Is there anything preventing these pilots from leaving all at the same time?

Let’s assume that the Company pisses us off once again like they’ve done so many times in the past. Unfortunately for those of us who are under 60, we have to take it on the chin, because in our seniority-based industry, we cannot leave; we cannot take our seniority with us to go somewhere else.

However, there is nothing holding back a person who has nothing to lose; he can just hang it all up, and live off a lavish pension. So under this extreme case, if at the same time, every over 60 pilot had enough, the entire B777 fleet would be grounded for up to 18 months.

So, how much would this cost Air Canada? Now, you know why their lawyers are worried?

You have got to be kidding? Every other airlne in North America has figured this out but AC is incapable?

DAL watched almost 2000 Captains retire in just over a year on very short notice and they still managed to keep the engines turning. Your post sums up the institutional paralysis that plagues AC.

[777longhaul]

most likely, the contract, that is constantly delayed, will have a requirement for a pilot to submit his/her retirement request 18 months (or some other number) before they WISH to retire. Same as before, just a different way of doing it.

there will be adjustments to many issues, and thats what they are, just adjustments, to a different way of doing things.

the BIG change, the 2900 pilots that would not see max pension, will get a CHOICE, on how much longer they wish to improve their pension contributions, and as a result, their final pension. Hell, they might even see the indexing put back into the plan, just like senior management has! Now thats a real thought.

[Say Altitude]

Do you REALLY think that if FP60 stays, that the contract will not change to make sure you end up BOTL? Do you really think there isn't a ground swell of discontent among the junior members to make sure that things are made a little more equitable? Rightly or wrongly, the junior membership has put up with a lot of crap being sent downhill and hasn't done much about it - which is disappointing to say the least but it is what it is.

I'm telling you - change is coming (isn't that the same mantra you keep saying?). The whisper campaign is alive and well. Most have sat back and watched things progress through the Courts and the Tribunal but that's going to come to an end eventually and if it all shakes out the way you keep saying it will (FP60 staying), then be prepared for the fallout.

Just for a second assume FP60 stays (although it's still not a done deal), you can be rest assured that once you've spent your time at the top of the heap, you're going back to the bottom to make room for those junior to you to progress. Just like those before you did so you could get to the top. And there are plenty of ways to make that happen that doesn't solely rely on age based retirement and still allows you to keep working for the "love of flying". You'll just do it as EMJ F/O's doing triple LGA turns starting at 0600 and a seniority number of 3100.

Don't for a second be under any illusion that if FP60 stays that you're staying senior.

[Mechanic787]

Do you REALLY think that if FP60 stays, that the contract will not change to make sure you end up BOTL? ... And there are plenty of ways to make that happen that doesn't solely rely on age based retirement and still allows you to keep working for the "love of flying". You'll just do it as EMJ F/O's doing triple LGA turns starting at 0600 and a seniority number of 3100. Don't for a second be under any illusion that if FP60 stays that you're staying senior.

As I said in one of my posts here last year, do you have a valid licence to fly commerical passenger aircraft?
If so, please publish your schedule for us so that you can spare all of the other "professionals" in the world the risk of getting on board an aircraft behind anyone quite so mentally, logically, and factually challenged.

Have you not been able to fathom any of the practical consequences of the recent legal developments? It is precisely the attitude of individuals like yourself that has led ACPA to a plethora of legal challenges. From what I read of some of the posts here, your union executive appears to be gradually coming out of that fog. You owe it to yourself to do the same.

[Lost in Saigon]

Do you REALLY think that if FP60 stays, that the contract will not change to make sure you end up BOTL? Do you really think there isn't a ground swell of discontent among the junior members to make sure that things are made a little more equitable? Rightly or wrongly, the junior membership has put up with a lot of crap being sent downhill and hasn't done much about it - which is disappointing to say the least but it is what it is.

I'm telling you - change is coming (isn't that the same mantra you keep saying?). The whisper campaign is alive and well. Most have sat back and watched things progress through the Courts and the Tribunal but that's going to come to an end eventually and if it all shakes out the way you keep saying it will (FP60 staying), then be prepared for the fallout.

Just for a second assume FP60 stays (although it's still not a done deal), you can be rest assured that once you've spent your time at the top of the heap, you're going back to the bottom to make room for those junior to you to progress. Just like those before you did so you could get to the top. And there are plenty of ways to make that happen that doesn't solely rely on age based retirement and still allows you to keep working for the "love of flying". You'll just do it as EMJ F/O's doing triple LGA turns starting at 0600 and a seniority number of 3100.

Don't for a second be under any illusion that if FP60 stays that you're staying senior.

While you are at it, (just to make a bit more room for us junior guys to move up), lets make all visible minorities go to the BOTL. You have no problem with that, right?


What you don't seem to understand is that Canadians have certain Human Rights. Human Rights that protect us from idiots like you.

There is NO WAY in the world that you will be able to send FP60 pilots to the bottom of the list. The only thing you could hope for is some new way to distribute the salary to the general pilot community that best represents your own selfish interests. AND you'll probably just end up shooting yourself in the foot in the process. Remember not all older pilots are senior. In the last 20 years many pilots were hired in their 30's and even 40's.

[Rockie]

Do you REALLY think that if FP60 stays, that the contract will not change to make sure you end up BOTL?

Reach between your legs, grab a tight hold of your neck, and pull as hard as you can.

[MackTheKnife]

Do you REALLY think that if FP60 stays, that the contract will not change to make sure you end up BOTL?

Thank you so very much for confirming why this conflict is still on going. I pity ACPA having to pacify people like you.

There is some good in all this though. You can be gratefull god gave you a mouth where your stupid comments can at spew forth from because there is obviously nothing between your ears.

[Localizer]

Thank you so very much for confirming why this conflict is still on going. I pity ACPA having to pacify people like you.

There is some good in all this though. You can be gratefull god gave you a mouth where your stupid comments can at spew forth from because there is obviously nothing between your ears.

And I pity the aviation industry for people like you and groups like FP60.

Once again its nice to see school yard comments from members of FP60. Maybe one day you'll respond to a question and not hurl an insult while at it .. maybe act your age perhaps?