"No phone calls please!"

[jeta1]

.

[KK7]

KK, shall we agree to disagree? I guess your employees need more managing than ours.
Fly safe.

We can definitely agree to disagree

Our company has 703 and 705, operating world wide in some very difficult conditions and rapidly changing situations. The CP has over 100 pilots floating around the world to deal with, plus training and staying current on several aircraft. Because of the locations of our bases, he's made himself available to us at all hours of the day or night. We get complex requests from the customer that have a lot of gray legal areas that he has to deal with. So yeah, he's a busy guy. I suppose if you wanted a job at Air Canada you expect to be able to call them up and get the answers you need?

I think pretty much all companies do a pretty good job at making themselves available. Of course their going to do it on their own schedule, and that's called an interview. Just because you accept to go to an interview without info like salary ahead of time, doesn't mean you're accepting whatever conditions they are offering. To me an interview is more than just a company seeing if they want to hire you, but also for the pilot to see if they want to work for the company. If they offer a job, you are allowed to say no! I usually go into interviews with a long list of questions on a pad of paper ahead of time, and I often end up asking the interviewers more questions than they ask me, unless they happen to give me most of the info I was looking for on their own, which they sometimes do. I take notes, and if they offer a job, I don't just accept it right away even if it looks unbelievable. I at least take a day to consider the angles and make an informed decision that I sleep on first.

The interview is the time the company gives you to ask all the questions you can possibly think of, and you have their 100% attention. If you don't like what they have to offer right there in the interview, just say so.

[Benwa]

What I do is send an email with the salary, etc to those invited to an interview. That way, if they are not interested in the conditions, we won't waste each other's time.

Those that weren't selected will receive an email when all the positions are filled. That way they don't wait for a call eternally.

I don't mind the occasional drop-in, but I only have a couple per week. Phone calls, I don't mind, but if I'm busy, you might get the voicemail.

[Go Juice]

I guess some company are ashamed of what they are paying their pilot. So they won't tell you in the ad, and they won't take your phone calls because they are SO important.

But after under paid pilot to be drives 2000km to the middle of nowhere in his best up honda civic for the said interview, they finally tell him about the low pay. He just drove 2000km so ot course he'll take the job, IT IS HIS DREAM after all.

So when he tells to O SO BUSY chief Pilot that he'll take the job, the CP looks at him with a used car salesman sile and tell him: let's talk about your training bond.....


Have a nice day ppl

[DHCdriver]

If the ad says " NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE" and salary "TBD" I keep on searching, they obvisiously are not the company for me. I like the family type companys where everybody is treated the same, your not just a number. If they can't take the time to talk to the applicants that meet the requirements and tell you what they are going to pay you for what you have to offer, then a alarm goes off in my head. STAY AWAY. Just my 2 cents. Happy flying everybody.

[trey kule]

I find it almost unbelievable that people would post some of the contents here because they felt the potential employer's policies and attitudes were interferring with their career path.

Lets look at the original post. Guy ignored the please do not call...and called. Damned if he was going to let the employer dictate what would affect his career path. And he got put straight. Not his fault. Not at all. Damn employer. So he comes on a public forum and posts that anybody that does not take calls is an big egotist and should get over themselves..He does not see the irony in that.

But lets be clear. And I speak from only the company I work for. After everyone at the company has had input, a list of must haves/should haves/nice to haves is drawn up and the ad posted. Some details are not posted at that time for two reasons. 1. About 50%, or better of the resumes received are from people who dont fit the profile we are looking for by not meeting the stated requirements., and 2. We do not wish to provide details of pay for the world, our competitiors, or for any of those who are pissed off about something in our ad and will come out and rant. We sometimes do not even list type of a/c if it is new type coming on line .
qualified canidates receive a complete information package with duties , salaries, compensation, etc. If they choose to fill out the app and submit it with the required docs everyone is pretty much aware of how things wil be. At the interview questions are encouraged, but we try to make as much info available beforehand as we understand some people are a bit timid in the interview setting. We have little turnover, and I think we do a good job at selecting the right people.

If there is time available and we get the odd phone call or walkin , no one has a problem with that. But when you post a job , the phone calls pour in. Should we make time? Look at some of the posts.. If the ad says no phone calls, drop by in person...(does he get why the no phone calls is there?). Pretend you didnt read the ad (another honest person..the kind you can trust when they say they just got delayed somewhere for traffic).
Here is a true story. The CP is in a meeting with four people. He gets called out of the meeting to the phone because it is a "family matter". It is some clever little pilot who has figured a way to get by the front desk The CP asks how this is a family matter, and is told that the pilot wants to become a member of their aviaition family. The phone call ended right after the CP politely got the pilots name so he could put it in the never never hire file , and share it with the CP's of other companies. It would not surprise me if that pilot does did post on here to tell the CP to get over himself.

Look at the two main viewpoints and the people they are coming from. Hopefully some of you young ones will see who is who and their viewpoint. Honesty is everybit as important as flight requirements. Please keep that in mind when you come up with some teenage clever tricks for getting the CP on the phone, and good luck to all those who are honest, can follow instructions, and dont feel the need to come on here and demean any future employer. You may not be as anoymous as you think.

[Doc]

I find it almost unbelievable that people would post some of the contents here because they felt the potential employer's policies and attitudes were interferring with their career path.

Lets look at the original post. Guy ignored the please do not call...and called. Damned if he was going to let the employer dictate what would affect his career path. And he got put straight. Not his fault. Not at all. Damn employer. So he comes on a public forum and posts that anybody that does not take calls is an big egotist and should get over themselves..He does not see the irony in that.

But lets be clear. And I speak from only the company I work for. After everyone at the company has had input, a list of must haves/should haves/nice to haves is drawn up and the ad posted. Some details are not posted at that time for two reasons. 1. About 50%, or better of the resumes received are from people who dont fit the profile we are looking for by not meeting the stated requirements., and 2. We do not wish to provide details of pay for the world, our competitiors, or for any of those who are pissed off about something in our ad and will come out and rant. We sometimes do not even list type of a/c if it is new type coming on line .
qualified canidates receive a complete information package with duties , salaries, compensation, etc. If they choose to fill out the app and submit it with the required docs everyone is pretty much aware of how things wil be. At the interview questions are encouraged, but we try to make as much info available beforehand as we understand some people are a bit timid in the interview setting. We have little turnover, and I think we do a good job at selecting the right people.

If there is time available and we get the odd phone call or walkin , no one has a problem with that. But when you post a job , the phone calls pour in. Should we make time? Look at some of the posts.. If the ad says no phone calls, drop by in person...(does he get why the no phone calls is there?). Pretend you didnt read the ad (another honest person..the kind you can trust when they say they just got delayed somewhere for traffic).
Here is a true story. The CP is in a meeting with four people. He gets called out of the meeting to the phone because it is a "family matter". It is some clever little pilot who has figured a way to get by the front desk The CP asks how this is a family matter, and is told that the pilot wants to become a member of their aviaition family. The phone call ended right after the CP politely got the pilots name so he could put it in the never never hire file , and share it with the CP's of other companies. It would not surprise me if that pilot does did post on here to tell the CP to get over himself.

Look at the two main viewpoints and the people they are coming from. Hopefully some of you young ones will see who is who and their viewpoint. Honesty is everybit as important as flight requirements. Please keep that in mind when you come up with some teenage clever tricks for getting the CP on the phone, and good luck to all those who are honest, can follow instructions, and dont feel the need to come on here and demean any future employer. You may not be as anoymous as you think.

Good points....but....if you had time to sit down and post that "rant", surely you had time to field a couple of phone calls?
Just screwing with ya.

[scopiton]

I like the family type companys where everybody is treated the same, your not just a number

I've never seen a family type business treating each employee equally but the contrary to say the least.
if you want to be treated equally be a number in a seniority list. no personal criteria will impair judgement over your performances.

[highlander]

I have been on both sides. What I can tell you is that as a CP, I always did try and take phone calls as well as meet people that came down in person. However, i will say that answering phones and doing "tours" or meet and greets does take up time in an already busy day. When we did advertising for positions we would frequently get at least 75-100 resumes or more for the one advertisement. Of those, maybe 12-20 would be a combination of phone calls and the ocassional drop-in for a visit. It consumes time. Factor in that I still haven't called people for formal interviews and the interviews themselves! (it makes sense why larger companies have an HR department!) When your role involves other things (training, flying, sops, admin, testing, etc.,) it eats in to a lot of the valuable time you need to fulfill other things.

My only "beef" is that people call with inappropriate questions. My advice is to try and learn about the company- this can be done usually through the website or a place like avcanada. Talk to people! Then, from there, see if any of the information you find, answers your questions. If it doesn't, then perhaps the questions left are appropriate to ask.

[trey kule]

Good points....but....if you had time to sit down and post that "rant", surely you had time to field a couple of phone calls?
Just screwing with ya

Actually, I had to sacrifice my scarce,informative and valuable porn surfing and email joke reading time to make the rant. I suppose I could give up coffee and lunch breaks to make time for phone calls. What do you think the chance of that happening is?

[LousyFisherman]

I wasn't going to comment but ....
Warning: I am a damager but I do not work in the aviation industry.

A typical job ad states
"Please send your resume to <email or fax>"

It may or may not state
"No phone calls please"

How many of you follow the first instruction? If you follow the first instruction why would you not follow the second instruction.

Personally, if I requested no phone calls and you phoned me I would thank you. Why, because you have just demonstrated you are incapable of following instructions so you have helped me reduce the pile of resumes on my desk by 1.

The time to ask questions to see if you are really interested in the job is when I phone you to set up an interview.

However, co-joe mentions a technique I myself have used that would be acceptable.

xsbank is also quite correct, apply for everything even if you are not qualified.
You may get lucky

I find it amazing how many potential employees feel they should be able to tell their future manager how to do the manager's job.

Just saying.....

LF

[warbirdpilot7]

You apply by email, do not get a POF letter, or any other response. You can not call to do a follow-up. Lovely..............Now what

Walk in like you own the place

[Brewguy]

When I was an Ops Manager, and was doing some hiring, I/we always sent a confirmation email to everyone who submitted an emailed application/resume. That email thanked them for their interest, and gave a time line of when they would hear back (one way or the other).

Once I/we had completed our initial screening, those who were cut received a 2nd email, again thanking them for their interest, letting them know they were not being considered at this time, telling them that we would keep their application on file (which we did), encouraging them to apply again in the future, and wishing them luck.

Those who made the initial cut were phoned and/or emailed so that we could have a chat and determine if things would proceed further. That's the time to ask any questions, before 'driving 2000 km for an interview'.

(As an aside: Really, who the @#$! travels that far for an interview based solely on submitting a resume? No employer I know would ask an applicant to do that, and only an idiot of an applicant would do it either.)

As mentioned previously, this is a wide-ranging standard practice across every industry. I've worked with large engineering firms that had the same practices for hiring senior / management level engineers. 'No phone calls' doesn't mean you will not have an opportunity to communicate with the employer .... it just means you won't have an opportunity to communicate with them (beyond submitting you resume, cover letter, etc in writing) unless and until you have made it past the initial screening.

[Ecco]

I thing every operators should get a time frame on there ad's and also inform when the pos had been filled up...By doing this, they should get themselves out well out of troubles according to phone calls.

My 2 cents

[KK7]

I've put some more thought into this, and I have decided that I think employers should hire me immediately if I choose to apply. I'd settle for an automatic interview once they receive my resume, but it's not my top choice.

[Ecco]

Here's smthing that must be your top choice..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackieinmi/2534077550/

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Get over yourselves!
You're in aviation management.
There are lots of pilots looking for work.
You are going to get phone calls.
It's your job.
Don't want to field calls?
Go back to flying the line.
Do your job.
Stop whining!

+

Exactly!

As much as I think you are a douche Doc, I couldn't agree more with this post. Admirable. If you cant take the heat, get the f*** out of the industry. Where do you work again !?

As I'm pretty sure I already mentioned on the first page of this thread "no calls" is not something unique to the aviation industry. Look on any job board, for any and every industry, and you'll see the same thing. It is a common business practice for all kinds of businesses.

So for all you non-management types who have never had to post an ad, screen applicants, etc. You get over yourselves.
.

And I'd never fly an airplane for someone who's head is so far up his ass, he wouldn't stoop to talk to me on the phone. BTW, I have actually interviewed and hired quite a few pilots. I can tell more about a person in a three minute phone call, than I could ever learn from a three page resume full of cookie cutter bull shit. Resumes are ALL carbon copies of each other.

I think one of the main issues in this industry today is the excess amount of dinosaurs refusing to hand over the reigns and teach the newer fish in the pond. I have seen this crap at colleges and flight clubs, never mind here say within the airlines.
If you cannot simply aid in the endeavors and pursuit of future generations in this diverse industry, then do us all a favor and just retire. If you cannot simply understand the fact that paper does not do justice anymore, than I highly suggest you make up a fake identity, basic credentials, and apply to sister companies. See how many phone calls you get "thanking" you for your interest etc etc. I AGREE FULLY with Doc, I would rather work at Sobey's than fly for a prick who is so high on himself /herself to the point they cannot even answer or return a phone call from those who are not as "blessed"? with similar opportunity. What do you do to road trippers.... ? acid on skin? lashings?

If the ad says " NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE" and salary "TBD" I keep on searching, they obvisiously are not the company for me. I like the family type companys where everybody is treated the same, your not just a number. If they can't take the time to talk to the applicants that meet the requirements and tell you what they are going to pay you for what you have to offer, then a alarm goes off in my head. STAY AWAY. Just my 2 cents. Happy flying everybody.

Damn right! I do not expect an Oprah interview, or gift basket , but simply common respect. So one of two things may be true. Either a) They had their position handed to them and therefore remain ignorant as to the challenges facing the new generations or b) they went through it, and are so ignorant and delusional for the sake of riding their high horse. DHC Driver, keep in mind many have no choice. Time, IMO, is the cure. When the relics move on things will change.

I could only imagine how many dentists will be thanking me for this post

[Golden Pilot]

I can't believe how low this industry has become. It's not anything about that I don't want to have a phone call from each and every snot nosed pilot who does not remotely qualify for the job, it's that I'm NOT sitting in the office day after day waiting for their calls, I fly full time. I don't have a fancy office person to take their calls in my absence, I have an Engineer, who may have worked all night. Small operation, so what.
I choose to field emails first, review them, and CALL the ones I deem qualified. If they have questions on How many holidays and how much money they require, they can ask then. If they agree, then we can proceed with an interview.

Thank Gawd I run my business this way, evidently it weeds out the BS crap of these primadonna god's-gift-to-aviation wonders that are posting here.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

I can't believe how low this industry has become. It's not anything about that I don't want to have a phone call from each and every snot nosed pilot who does not remotely qualify for the job, it's that I'm NOT sitting in the office day after day waiting for their calls, I fly full time. I don't have a fancy office person to take their calls in my absence, I have an Engineer, who may have worked all night. Small operation, so what.
I choose to field emails first, review them, and CALL the ones I deem qualified. If they have questions on How many holidays and how much money they require, they can ask then. If they agree, then we can proceed with an interview.

Thank Gawd I run my business this way, evidently it weeds out the BS crap of these primadonna god's-gift-to-aviation wonders that are posting here.

You intentionally misconstrue the intent of so many in this thread. Understand that MOST , (not saying YOU) , but MOST , do not give a rats ass about an email. Just because you are not hiring does not mean people will not CALL and inquire. Think you are the only one ? Go work for Google

[Cat Driver]

It seems so simple.

" No phone calls please "

Why is that so difficult for anyone to understand?

[complexintentions]

Nice, I predicted you would say exactly this when I wrote it... I knew it!

So you're going to compare using pilot judgement/decision making from the standpoint of dealing with unusual situations in an aircraft for safety reasons to not following instructions when applying for a job? Yup, certainly very similar situations.

For f$ck's sake, don't be a hypocrite, YOU'RE the one who made the comparison, saying you wouldn't hire someone who couldn't follow instructions!! Make up your damn mind.

Seems to me the whole issue boils down to one of respect, or lack thereof. The difference being, with the employers holding the upper hand with an oversupply of applicants, behaving in this manner only serves to reveal them as nothing more than common bullies.

I think the more progressive companies - which incidentally, seem to be the more successful ones - are the ones that have learned to treat their employees as more than just parts of their machine. Employer/employee is nothing but a relationship, and as in all forms of relationships the key is communication. In this internet day and age there is simply no excuse for not replying to each and every applicant. "Not enough time" just doesn't cut it, not with cut and paste and email auto-replies and the like. There is nothing more infuriating than applying and not even knowing if your application was even RECEIVED, simply because an employer had so many applications for a given job that they didn't feel the need to even acknowledge the applicants. No one expects a handwritten PFO, just some common courtesy. I do agree that application instructions should be followed. I've been on both sides of the hiring fence. But the attitude demonstrated by the comment of "every snot-nosed pilot" really does reveal a lot.

And they wonder why pilots are all mercenaries...

[Gannet167]

In every industry, every profession, it's taken as a norm that you see a job, do all your own research and write a cover letter that reveals you know what the company wants and are the perfect person for the job. You apply, and then you wait for their call. This is the norm in just about every field. If the company is smart, they'll reply with a "thanks for your application, we'll call you" email etc. If they don't and they say "no phone calls" then I guess you have to roll the dice (like every other applicant in every other industry.)

If you apply to an organization - like a major bank, it's electronically submitted. You can't call and ask if they received it. You'd have to go through 10 people to get transferred to some director of HR. Even if you can get through, he/she probably has 1000 things on the go and doesn't have time for 10 people an hour calling to find out if their resume got in the pile and start discussing pay etc. Air Canada etc. isn't going to be much different. Large organization, lots of levels of management and lots of people involved in the process. You can call, but try to get transferred to the people making the decision - go ahead and try.

If you've only worked for small operations it might be easy to conclude that all employers have the time to be so accessible and continually answer questions - but they don't. They may have 1000 things on the go, trying to be managers and run the business. Hiring someone might be pretty far down on their list. So they say no phone calls because they either don't have the time or just don't want to. If they like you, THEY'LL CALL YOU. When you're the manager, you can make your own policy and answer to your boss why you weren't so productive because you were answering calls all day long.

[KK7]

For f$ck's sake, don't be a hypocrite, YOU'RE the one who made the comparison, saying you wouldn't hire someone who couldn't follow instructions!! Make up your damn mind.

So, if I am getting this right, you are putting applying for a job on the same level as flying an airplane? If so I'm sorry that you don't understand the difference between being in the care of people's lives and expensive equipment and the process of applying for a job.

Seems to me the whole issue boils down to one of respect, or lack thereof. The difference being, with the employers holding the upper hand with an oversupply of applicants, behaving in this manner only serves to reveal them as nothing more than common bullies.

No. Companies are in the business of making money. Welcome to the capitalist world. Time is money, and responding to unending phone calls asking for information that people could easily get elsewhere is money that fetches no revenue. Companies are not in the business of serving their employees, they are in the business of serving their customers. That's where time should be spent.

I think the more progressive companies - which incidentally, seem to be the more successful ones - are the ones that have learned to treat their employees as more than just parts of their machine. Employer/employee is nothing but a relationship, and as in all forms of relationships the key is communication. In this internet day and age there is simply no excuse for not replying to each and every applicant.

You make the fatal error that an applicant is not an employee. You're going to argue that the response, or lack thereof, from a company that you're applying to is a sign of how they treat their employees. But I beg to differ. Not only does it mean nothing with regards to how they treat the current people who are busy operating their equipment and making money for the company, but it demonstrates to the company what kind of employee you're going to be, one that takes up a lot of their valuable time asking questions that they should be able to get the answers to themselves, or cannot wait for the time and place to ask the question.


Since you want to go as far as calling me a hypocrite with no grounds to support it, I'm going to suggest that considering your extensive knowledge on the subject you should rethink your career and make a change to HR.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

It seems so simple.

" No phone calls please "

Why is that so difficult for anyone to understand?

Says the fellow with a universal type rating and 150,000 hours. Not everyone has identical credentials. Rest assured many will not call when someone states "no phone calls" .... time will be the best cure for said company.

[Cat Driver]

So you feel that a company who advertises for a pilot does not have the right to set the rules for how they hire, winds_in_flight_wtf?