What's V_a for a Pitts S-2B?

[photofly]

Does anyone know?

[Tim]

http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&h ... h&aq=f&oq=

[photofly]

134 Knots - thank you!

[Beefitarian]

So be honest. How fast did you imagine it to be.

I knew it was around that at one time but it just seems like it would be more because they're so pretty and turn so tight they look fast.

[photofly]

It had to be something like that, 3 times the stall speed, as they're stressed for 9G (I gather) but it's still impressively fast.

[Cat Driver]

Being able to handle a Pitts should be mandatory for the issuance of a flight instructors rating, especially landing in a strong x/wind.

[Shiny Side Up]

Being able to handle a Pitts should be mandatory for the issuance of a flight instructors rating, especially landing in a strong x/wind.

I wish. If only because it would mean there would have to be many more Pitts out there available.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Being able to handle a Pitts should be mandatory for the issuance of a flight instructors rating, especially landing in a strong x/wind.

I wish. If only because it would mean there would have to be many more Pitts out there available.

Yah you and me both, but on a more serious note there is a lot more to good instructing than fast hands and feet........

[cgzro]

The point is that if you are precise you don't need to be fast.

[Cat Driver]

The point is that if you are precise you don't need to be fast.

Exactly.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The point is that if you are precise you don't need to be fast.

Ok I will amend the end of my last comment to precise hands and feet . The thing with instructing is it matters how good you are but the true measure of your success is how good the student becomes...

[Hedley]

the true measure of your success is how good the student becomes

Agreed. And not everyone has a Pitts, but a lot of people have a C172.

Opening the POH for a 1975 172, on page 2-19, I found this:

The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than aircraft limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 knots can be handled with safety.

I would hope that every flight instructor inspires his student to attain "average" pilot skill.

My concern is that I'm not sure many flight instructors can land a 172 with a direct crosswind of 15 knots. And if the flight instructors can't do it, I can guarantee you that their students can't do it.

FWIW all of my students can effortlessly land in a direct 15 knot crosswind. They have to at my airport, because there is only one runway, and it is positioned so that after a cold front blows through and the wind is strong out of the northwest, it is a direct crosswind.

Now, I expect that this post of mine, which is merely a simple statement of fact, will enrage so many keyboard prima donnas here that personal insults and threats are sure to follow, and the moderators will have to lock this thread, too. Well done!

[Doc]

the true measure of your success is how good the student becomes

Agreed. And not everyone has a Pitts, but a lot of people have a C172.

Opening the POH for a 1975 172, on page 2-19, I found this:

The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than aircraft limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 knots can be handled with safety.

I would hope that every flight instructor inspires his student to attain "average" pilot skill.

My concern is that I'm not sure many flight instructors can land a 172 with a direct crosswind of 15 knots. And if the flight instructors can't do it, I can guarantee you that their students can't do it.

FWIW all of my students can effortlessly land in a direct 15 knot crosswind. They have to at my airport, because there is only one runway, and it is positioned so that after a cold front blows through and the wind is strong out of the northwest, it is a direct crosswind.

Now, I expect that this post of mine, which is merely a simple statement of fact, will enrage so many keyboard prima donnas here that personal insults and threats are sure to follow, and the moderators will have to lock this thread, too. Well done!

Problem is, if the "average" pilot can handle a 15 knot crosswind, then just as may can't as can. This worries me. I'm not sure I could handle a Pitts in a cross wind. Some things are best left to folks like you. I can however land a Dak in upwards of 30 knots on the beam. Different strokes for different folks. What was that cross wind limit for Seneca again?

[Hedley]

I'm not sure I could handle a Pitts in a cross wind

Yes, you could. In a Pitts, you hope and pray for a crosswind. The stronger, the better, for two reasons:

1) you can see something during the landing
2) the headwind component slows everything down, and that's good.

The Pitts has a tiny vertical fin, a large rudder, and a short fuselage. This results in less weathervaning tendency that you might think. All you have to do is get the stick all the way over to generate maximum adverse yaw on the downwind aileron, and that's it.

I frequently land the Pitts with a crosswind greater than demonstrated by the manufacturer during certification. I suppose that makes me an evil man, whom is destined to Burn In Hell.

So be it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Every CPL and Instructor student of mine will get plenty of crosswind practice with hopefully at lest one with more than the "demonstrated" X wind component. I will also have them fly at least one landing with a 10 knot tailwind.

[Doc]

I'm not sure I could handle a Pitts in a cross wind

Yes, you could. In a Pitts, you hope and pray for a crosswind. The stronger, the better, for two reasons:

1) you can see something during the landing
2) the headwind component slows everything down, and that's good.

The Pitts has a tiny vertical fin, a large rudder, and a short fuselage. This results in less weathervaning tendency that you might think. All you have to do is get the stick all the way over to generate maximum adverse yaw on the downwind aileron, and that's it.

I frequently land the Pitts with a crosswind greater than demonstrated by the manufacturer during certification. I suppose that makes me an evil man, whom is destined to Burn In Hell.

So be it.

Nothing evil about you. I'd bloody love to fly a Pitts.

[Hedley]

I'd bloody love to fly a Pitts

Sh1t, all you have to do is stop by CYSH when it warms up and we'll go flying. I've got 3 two seat Pitts in my hangar, and there's a fourth down the taxiway with a claw prop that I fly, too.

Easy to fly. A pig to land, because of no forward vis in the landing attitude. Like driving down the highway at 80 mph with the hood up, covering the windshield. A tad disconcerting at first. Very much WWII in that regard.

The good news is that if you put the effort into mastering the Pitts, you can land almost anything else. My father says the F-104 is much, much easier to land (at 170 knots) than the Pitts. I was told, many years ago by a USN pilot, that landing a Pitts was equivalent in difficulty to a daytime carrier landing in an F-18.

Rick Volker in the IAC magazine was recently recommending to the warbird guys that they get some cheap time in a single-seat Pitts S-1S, to develop their stick & rudder skills, which apply directly to WWII warbird flying.

[Justjohn]

the true measure of your success is how good the student becomes

Opening the POH for a 1975 172, on page 2-19, I found this:

The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than aircraft limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 knots can be handled with safety.

I would hope that every flight instructor inspires his student to attain "average" pilot skill.

My concern is that I'm not sure many flight instructors can land a 172 with a direct crosswind of 15 knots. And if the flight instructors can't do it, I can guarantee you that their students can't do it.

FWIW all of my students can effortlessly land in a direct 15 knot crosswind. They have to at my airport, because there is only one runway, and it is positioned so that after a cold front blows through and the wind is strong out of the northwest, it is a direct crosswind.

Now, I expect that this post of mine, which is merely a simple statement of fact, will enrage so many keyboard prima donnas here that personal insults and threats are sure to follow, and the moderators will have to lock this thread, too. Well done!

Hey Hedley, I'm a fan. I like your straight talk and uncompromising attitude towards getting the most out of your airplane. in short I dig what you have to say. Now some of what I have to say addresses other posts previous to what was quoted.

I did bold the word 'Effortlessly'. I think you meant to say routinely. I'm pretty sure that a student pilot operating near the edge of what the airplane can do is putting some effort in to it. The difference in the words ? Smug & arrogance don't really fit into what a student pilot, or any pilot should be aiming for.

Be mindful that not everything is about surface level aerobatics & just 'cause a fella wears some gold on his collar doesn't make it something less....

Now here on the rock we operate in some of the worst wx in the world. 1200 RVR (yes, we have an op spec to go to 1200 without it being a Cat II) with a 30 KT Xwind component (and that's just the Xwind. 45G60 is not unusual here) is really just another day of the week. Thro in a CRFI of .28 or so ... Oh yeah, No automation. Your handbombing all the way. That's MY world. I Really Dig it !

I would even suggest that not a whole lot of folks could do what I do on a daily basis. Least not without some serious Line Indoc and the right attitude .. And the hands and feet ... and the decision making to go with. As Cat says ... Knowing when to fly is one of the most important skills. And don't suggest that just because a pilot has an IFR means they could make a go of it here. Flying to IFR flight test standards .. Isn't good enough. The needles WILL be crossed at mins, or you just won't see what you need to see and will go missed. And then you get to do it again, or go to the alternate. Fair enough, but how's about we just do it right the first time.

My point ? Lots of ppl who fly aren't Drones cause they don't do what you do. Ease up a little man ! Being disappointed by ppl is easy .. Especially when you are so experienced. The skill is seeing what they could do .. and helping them get there.

Of course the student must be physically and mentally prepared to learn, but that would be a different thread.

Cheers,
j

[Hedley]

the rock ... 1200 RVR ... 30 KT Xwind ... 45G60 is not unusual ... CRFI of .28 or so ... handbombing

My hat is off to you, sir. That's real stick and rudder flying, and is a subset that is completely unfamiliar to me - not my world. Where I come from, if the wx is really crappy, there's generally negligible wind. And if there's wild wind, it's VFR.

I don't fly the east coast, and never will. I had a Transport Enforcement Inspector that I had never met before, call me up cold one day and tell me that if I ever flew to Atlantic Region, she would charge me. Ok. For the rest of my life, I have and will carefully avoid Atlantic Region.

[Cat Driver]

I don't fly the east coast, and never will. I had a Transport Enforcement Inspector that I had never met before, call me up cold one day and tell me that if I ever flew to Atlantic Region, she would charge me. Ok. For the rest of my life, I have and will carefully avoid Atlantic Region.

The arrogance that some TC thugs display is breathtaking.

I'm a bit different than you in some ways Hedley, I would have flew right down there and made sure she knew where to find me.

[bandaid]

Good for you Cat. Always the rebel.

[Siddley Hawker]

Not a Pitts, but years ago I read an interview with the guy who used to fly this replica. He said he would compare it to a Pitts S2, and if you could handle a Pitts you'd have no problem with a GeeBee.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My point ? Lots of ppl who fly aren't Drones cause they don't do what you do. Ease up a little man ! Being disappointed by ppl is easy .. Especially when you are so experienced. The skill is seeing what they could do .. and helping them get there.


Cheers,
j

+ 1

And now back to the thread topic........what was it again