To finish a degree? Yes or no?

[oldmanwinter]

Go finish the degree. Pretend you had all your ratings right now, and you couldn’t get a job, what would you do today?
A degree is the only thing that will let you make something above minimum wage if something happens, read: layoff, company goes TU, lose medical etc..

SunWuKong, although I just signed up today I have been reading these boards for awhile now, I just don’t understand you. I know many AC, WJ and Jazz pilots with university degrees and they fly big shiny jets for a living.. Only difference is when the layoff comes or they lose there medical at 42 there still going to be able to provide for their families. Not saying someone without the degree won’t be able to do the same but I'll bet its going to be a lot harder. To me it sounds like your jealous? hating on? people with degrees…

[Typhoon]

Thanks for all of the replies, I certainly wasn't expecting such a wealth of knowledge. I think I've come to a pretty reasonable conclusion. I plan on applying to universities for the fall in hopes of finding some sort of job in the aviation industry before hand, and if I don't, well at least I have something to do until the next season rolls around.

SunWuKong, you have good points, however, I've already experienced one major injury while obtaining my CPL (I almost lost my medical 4 months before completing it), and still suffer from the injury. It's expected to heal, but not fully. I'm a bit worried what will happen 5 years from now if, from all the sitting, I have to go through some sort of surgery that - a) may not be transport approved, or b) may get my medical taken away from me. At least if I go back to school, I'll be prepared for what may come. I'm definitely not wanting a degree to impress some HR worker, I'm considering it as I have the opportunity to get one, so why throw that away?

Flying is my dream, and it always has been. But they way things have gone recently, and from previous lessons learned through other family members losing their medicals while trying to support a family (luckily they work for a big company that offers benefits / disability, which I believe most of the smaller outfits unfortunately won't provide), I feel as if it may be a good thing to further my education if I'm not working.

Through my research, I've found there are a lot of programs available online, so at least if I do find a job, I could work part time towards a degree.

[A321]

I have had to bail on my career as a pilot as most companies I have worked for as a pilot have indeed gone "boobs up". It is my degree that pays my bills and I go out to the airport on my lunch hour to watch the aircraft come and go. I have been making trips out to the airport since I was a kid. My dad had a 180 on floats so flying was EVERYTHING to me.

While doing medivacs in the north I noticed the person in the back end was earning a lot more $$ then the front end. So it is my degree that pays my bills, and that is my BN. Yes, I have had to eat crow working as a murse, but I now have a corporate job in healthcare and can afford the vacation in Hawaii. In fact I could go and work and live in Hawaii with my degree. If I want the 200k salary I can go and work up north and live in a place ending in "uk" or "lake". If I want to be in aviation I can ride in the back of a King Air or Citation or combine the front end and take the pay cut. My point is my degree has afforded me options.

Having just returned home via a circuitous route from HNL to ride Hawaiian Air's new A330...I looked at the new F.O. featured in the in-flight magazine. A 24 y.o. 767 first officer who has a family tree within the company. Opportunity + preparation + luck = the pilot job that is a career. You need a degree to fall back on!

[cplpilot]

Yes

[SunWuKong]

oldmanwinter, no I don't hate people with degrees.

Typhoon, I am sorry to hear about you health issues, I hope it will be fine. Did you think to get an insurance when you'll start working?

[Flybabe]

My opinion:

Perhaps we ARE in a hiring cycle. Note that word: CYCLE. This industry goes up and down faster than Tiger Woods' britches.

2-3 years (or 4 or whatever) is not an eternity. Aviation will still be here. The bonus? You have training that is more marketable than being able to fly an airplane. There are MANY jobs out there for people with degrees, but just a few for pilots.

Consider this: You go get your pilot's license and land a job within a year or two. In 5 years, you decide you hate flying (or the schedule, whatever) or lose your medical. You've now realized that you have nothing else. So, either you stay in aviation, doing a job that you hate, or you start all over. Trust me, training for a new career isn't easier when you get older.

Or, alternatively, you get a degree. No jobs available at that point so you continue working a job you've already trained for. A couple years down the road, you get a chance to fly. 5 years later, you decide you hate it or lose your medical - you have a skillset that allows you to continue working without having to flip burgers.

Fact of the matter, the choice is yours. Despite what SunWuKong says, I'm pretty sure you know that we can't tell you what to do. Those of us that are IN the industry can see a bit broader scope.

I wish I had something to fall back on. It's tough finding the time or money to upgrade and that degree I want seems so out of reach now. If I lose my medical tomorrow, I'm screwed.

[Typhoon]

Thanks a lot Flybabe, you definitely have some good points there. I appreciate the input.

As more of a general question, I'm not too familiar with Business degrees, but in order to really use say a Bachelors of Business Admin. do you have to upgrade it to an MBA?

Thanks again.

[DaveC]

Thanks a lot Flybabe, you definitely have some good points there. I appreciate the input.

As more of a general question, I'm not too familiar with Business degrees, but in order to really use say a Bachelors of Business Admin. do you have to upgrade it to an MBA?

Thanks again.

I don't think so - from my understand most people get B.Commerce's then go for an MBA. Masters degrees are just degrees you can do AFTER you have a degree in the related field of the masters.. Kind of like ratings on a license.

[Hedley]

most people get B.Commerce's then go for an MBA

Not always. Lot of overlap there, in those 2 degrees. Far more common is an engineering degree, then an MBA, which is what my father did. My sister did her Bcomm then an MHA.

Personally, I think an MBA is a waste of time and money. The shine has really gone off it in recent years. Instead buy a textbook on each of finance, accounting, economics and marketing. Read them. Save yourself $$$ and get the knowledge, which is more important than the letters after your name.

If you want to go hard-core, get a PhD in Mathematics. If I was young again, that's what I would do. In my family, I am somewhat under-educated: as far as letters after your name go, I am merely BSc, ATPL. Heck, it's a miracle I even have an undergraduate degree - I was expelled from high school.

[Typhoon]

most people get B.Commerce's then go for an MBA

Not always. Lot of overlap there, in those 2 degrees. Far more common is an engineering degree, then an MBA, which is what my father did. My sister did her Bcomm then an MHA.

Personally, I think an MBA is a waste of time and money. The shine has really gone off it in recent years. Instead buy a textbook on each of finance, accounting, economics and marketing. Read them. Save yourself $$$ and get the knowledge, which is more important than the letters after your name.

If you want to go hard-core, get a PhD in Mathematics. If I was young again, that's what I would do. In my family, I am somewhat under-educated: as far as letters after your name go, I am merely BSc, ATPL. Heck, it's a miracle I even have an undergraduate degree - I was expelled from high school.

Haha wow Hedley, expelled from High School eh? What did you do?

I guess MBA's/Business grads are a dime a dozen, and you have a fairly valid point. I'm more of a math guy anyways. I'm mainly looking at Engineering or physics right now, except physics is definitely something you can't do much with without a masters (from what I've read), but at least it's another skill set I guess.

[DaveC]

most people get B.Commerce's then go for an MBA

Not always. Lot of overlap there, in those 2 degrees. Far more common is an engineering degree, then an MBA, which is what my father did. My sister did her Bcomm then an MHA.

Personally, I think an MBA is a waste of time and money. The shine has really gone off it in recent years. Instead buy a textbook on each of finance, accounting, economics and marketing. Read them. Save yourself $$$ and get the knowledge, which is more important than the letters after your name.

If you want to go hard-core, get a PhD in Mathematics. If I was young again, that's what I would do. In my family, I am somewhat under-educated: as far as letters after your name go, I am merely BSc, ATPL. Heck, it's a miracle I even have an undergraduate degree - I was expelled from high school.

Haha wow Hedley, expelled from High School eh? What did you do?

I guess MBA's/Business grads are a dime a dozen, and you have a fairly valid point. I'm more of a math guy anyways. I'm mainly looking at Engineering or physics right now, except physics is definitely something you can't do much with without a masters (from what I've read), but at least it's another skill set I guess.

You could teach with a Physics degree haha.
Math is a pretty good discipline because you can branch into Accounting if you want to.

[Hedley]

expelled from High School? What did you do?

I didn't think it was a big deal. It's a long time ago - 30 years - but IIRC it had something to do with a bicycle race called the Tour d'Oakville which I was deemed uneligible for, but since it was held on public roads, I just peddled along anyways. I didn't think it was a big deal, but holy sh1t they went bananas.

I had a very strange high school experience. One year I won an award for getting the highest average mark. I really didn't find the material very difficult. Anyways, they gave me this cheap plaque as an award - what you'd get for 3rd place in a Regional Sportsman Aerobatic Contest. I took it home, and showed it to my grumpy old fighter pilot father. He turned it over, look at the back of it, handed it back to me, and said, "You study too much". In retrospect, I think my mother would have killed him if she had heard him say that to me.

Anyways, the next year I got expelled for riding in a bicycle race. I really didn't see what all the fuss was about. I had a similar experience in 2001 at Hanover. Didn't understand what all the fuss was about, but everyone went completely bananas and I ended up in court for four years arguing the applicability of Double Jeopardy to Canadian Administrative Law in the Federal Court of Appeals. Still paying for that faux pas, ten years later.

It was an enormous pain in the ass, finishing high school. I had to establish legitimate residency in another county - I was banned from attending any school in the county in Oakville, so I went to Mississauga - and show independent income. What a paperwork pain in the @ss. Story of my life. Didn't make much difference, really. I had a blindly bright red 1970 Camaro which I drove to school in Mississauga every day to finish high school, instead of Oakville. Quit riding bicycles. Too much trouble.

Here's the funny part: the high school I was expelled from in Oakville was later found to have a curious problem. All the teachers were dying of cancer, esp the ones who smoked. Turns out the entire school was filled with asbestos. It was condemned and sat as a toxic waste site for many years before it was finally torn down at great expense by construction workers in space suits or something.

So, thank you very much, "Asbestos High" for expelling me and reducing my exposure - by years - to airborne asbestos

It's really quite nice, after all these years, to think back to all of those rather unpleasant high school teachers, dying painful and unpleasant deaths from long-term exposure to asbestos.

[Typhoon]

That's true haha, but from talking to friends that are in teachers college, it sounds like teaching jobs are as hard to find as pilot jobs right now haha.

And WOW, what a story Hedley, who knew so many people would go bananas over you slipping into a bike race hehe. I bet everyone was jealous of that Camero

[Hedley]

who knew so many people would go bananas over you slipping into a bike race

Deja vu in Hanover 2001.

I bet everyone was jealous of that (1970) Camaro

I dunno. Back in 1980, it was a dinosaur that time had passed by, and only losers like me were interested in muscle cars. I worked evenings at a convenience store to earn money for parts for it, and weekends in an auto body shop, so I spent a winter doing the body work, and had an ace spray it. Here's a 30+ year old photo of it, taking it out of winter storage for spring, when I was in high school:

http://www.pittspecials.com/etc/camaro.jpg

It had the famous 350 V8, with decent compression but a 2 barrel carburetor. I pulled the heads, had a machine shop do the valves (not the 2.02 heads, alas) and found a cast-iron 4-barrel intake manifold in a junk yard that I scraped and painted. Put a spread-bore Rochester Quadrajet 4bbl on it, and my goodness, did that make a difference. Worked a summer, earned some money, bought an Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake manifold and a 600 cfm vacuum secondary Holley 4bbl carburetor that I had to tweak. Went to a Mallory electronic ignition - new distributor. Put headers and dual pipes on it, scraped the mufflers all the time.

My second try at an exhaust was my own unique design: 1 5/8 headers with brazed, smooth step-down to dual 2.5 inch pipes back to the rear axle, and constructed a double wall empty muffler - no baffles - with two 2.5 inch in and two 2.5 inch dual exhaust out. It was a tad noisy, but not too bad at low RPM - just a nice rumble. However, when you put your foot into it, it got amazingly loud - sort of like fabric tearing - you could hear each valve open as it wound up over 6,000 RPM. The volume of air out the back was impressive.

Read a book, found out that a big front sway bar from a 455 buick - 1 1/8 in - would fit. Went to a junkyard and found one. Replaced the original 7/8 inch bar, with new bushings. Saved up my $$$ and bought 4 incompressible Koni shock absorbers which were horribly rough on rough roads but incredible on smooth road. Bought 4 of the best tires there were at the time. It would go around a corner pretty well, with the throttle steering the rear end. Pretty cool for a 17 year old.

Tore all the interior out of it. Painted it red inside, too.

Had great fun with it. Wondeful torque. Shredded tires and made clouds of blue smoke on command. License plate was ZIP 100 - you couldn't get custom licence plates at the time, but that's what that car did. Rarely did I drive that car without exceeding 100 mph. Learned to do reasonable 180 turns in it. Got it stuck on wet grass, once.

These days I ride motorcycles. Took this picture a couple weeks ago on a warm day:

http://i.imgur.com/P6lpj.jpg

[Typhoon]

Hedley, I have to be honest, I didn't understand a word of your post, but does it ever sound like you had a ton of fun!

Nice bikes by the way, it must get a tad cold in the winter though

[Hedley]

I didn't understand a word of your post

No problem. Happens all the time.

does it ever sound like you had a ton of fun!

I have had more fun in my life than any 10 people you know:

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/takeoff.wmv

which might explain why a particular subset of people don't love me as much as they really should.

Nice bikes by the way

Thx. They are exquisite mechanical works of art. By some weird coincidence the RC51 has two pistons with the exact same bore (4 inches) as my 350 V8 in my 1970 Camaro, albeit with a much shorter stroke: 2.5 inches vs 3.5 inches for the 350

I have fantasized what you could do with four 1L RC51 L-twin engines bolted together: you would have the neatest little 4L 90 degree V8 with 600hp. My knees quiver when I think about the sound it would make as it soared past 10,000 RPM.

[Doc]

Some things are totally up to you. This is one of them. However, I have never known anyone to regret their choice to do so.

[SunWuKong]

Flybaby:

Despite what SunWuKong says, I'm pretty sure you know that we can't tell you what to do.

For real? There are 2 pages of degree brain washing telling him to stop looking for a job: get a degree YES YES YES, do it do it, get it, get the degree..... (read the 2 pages) and I am the one doing it?
I am bringing up the other option, and without options how one can choose? Hedley too talked about his experience, it's worth reading it.


We always forget about TIME FACTOR concerning *health, *hiring cycle, *economy, *age, *opportunities: we sometimes cannot see time as a changing factor evolving through our choices, action, life. Life is moving towards the future at a pace we cannot control, only adapt. So let's detail the time factor:

*Health: if I am due to have a major health problem in my 40s (example), what I am able to do before or after may be different (pilot before, atorney afterwards...)
*Hiring cycle: we have to understand our industry cycle. I beleive you recognize in which part we are today. I beleive you understand it won't last. I beleive you found out a cycle is around 6/10 years... (very begining of hiring in 1988, 96, 2004, then 2010... See you in 2016, or even better 2020 when officialy the peak oil will occure?
*Economy: read the KAG thread
*Age: like it or not, but 30, 70, or 98 years old, that's not the same. Like it or not, but you need a medical to be a pilot, but not to be a politician, historian, lawyer... You can be an excellent lawyer-atorney at 75 years old, not an excellent fighter pilot. Starting as a Piper navajo F/O in your 20s that's super funny, at 40 not that much sometimes.
*Opportunities are linked with time and age. Yes in 200 years, we will still have universities, and hopefully aviation, sure. We won't be here however. That's not because everything will still be here in the future that they are waiting for us, we have a different agenda. Example: your favorit company will be hiring during a period of time in the future, you have to be ready (experience) BEFORE (your life span scale is different than your environment scale).

It seems that we want to compare 2 typhoon, one in 2011 with a CPL and one year of degree completed before hand, looking for a job, and typhoon at the same age in 2011 with a degree, or bachelor, or MBA looking for a job. This typhoon number 2 DOESN'T EXIST. If we admit it, we have to accept the time factor in our raisoning. And including time factor in a life strategy doesn't mean diminishing it, because we all die at the end. Further more no degree now doesn't mean no degree never, or distance learning.
The logic that says, don't work now, because you need a degree in case of you don't find a job is absolute nonsense.


What is precious is motivation, youth, health. You have it, do what you dream of before you cannot, this is the best strategy.

If you lose your medical when working as a pilot, your company insurance, your insurance, and others sources will pay you to finish your degree. The fall back plan here is just an illusion, it's only bad strategy and misunderstanding of time factor.

[SunWuKong]

Flybabe:

Consider this: You go get your pilot's license and land a job within a year or two. In 5 years, you decide you hate flying (or the schedule, whatever) or lose your medical. You've now realized that you have nothing else. So, either you stay in aviation, doing a job that you hate, or you start all over. Trust me, training for a new career isn't easier when you get older.

Or, alternatively, you get a degree. No jobs available at that point so you continue working a job you've already trained for. A couple years down the road, you get a chance to fly. 5 years later, you decide you hate it or lose your medical - you have a skillset that allows you to continue working without having to flip burgers.

---> Typhoon already have his CPL he has just passed and is already looking for a job, so "go get your pilot's licence" doesn't work here.


Ok lets see:

Typhoon with his brand new CPL he has been working at for a while starts to work as a pilot this year april 2011, a choice he made after reading Avcanada. 5 years later: he has 5 years of salaries ($160.000 total?), an ATPL and works for kenn borek, turbine captain. He loses his medical, we are in 2016. Insurance, salary maintained for a while, he finishes his degree, no debts (he didn't choose the distance learning option while he was working). He starts his new career, he his a manager for Bombardier, in his office we can see a pic of him in front of his red airplane up north, with the sun rising above this huge white mountain. One day in the future at home he will show his son his ATPL/PICs, will tell him it was in an other life. He is known in his familily as somebody who gets what he wants, a former pilot, courageous, and know how to rebounce. Because of his double career his colleagues envy him.



Typhoon prime goes to university for 3 years, pays $50.000. 3 years later after university, he still wants to be a pilot (his dream), he has $50.000 debt, but he has to update his CPL now. A few months later, after an other $2000 debts, he decide to look for a job. We are in 2014, and the 2011/2012 hiring has long gone. After 6 months he is lucky to find a ramp job. An other 6 months later he is wondering what somebody with a degree is doing upnorth loading luggages in this old crappy Navajo that he is not sure he really wants to fly as F/O anymore, he had enough of this bullsh*t, he had enough to wait, he doesn't want to wait an other year or 2, when he can get a real job.
He comes back south, find a manager job for a local company.
Typhoon prime has quite a lot of debts, tried to become a pilot and don't know how to put it with his colleagues, or even with his family because it was not really a success. He had quite good grads at his Transport Canada written test, but nobody wants to look at his 89% pass, meteorology test.
Starting wage $575 a week, dental, a secretary he has to share with 3 other colleagues, that's better than loading sh*t up north he thinks. He is doing ok. Not every body has to make his dreams come true. Nobody admires him, sure, but we are in the real life, what did I expect?- he thinks- A TV comics hero? C'mon!
Some time later, it has been 5 years since he gave up to work right after his CPL, and it seems it's hiring a bit. They are looking for a pilot, para drops in this nice C182, just in his city!
Let's dream a bit he thinks. Ok I will get my medical, just in case Cathay Pacific calls me, who knows in case of shortage. Result: didn't work, he won't have his pilot medical, didn't pass, we are in 2016. What I was thinking anyway? He looks at his CPL he never used, piece of paper now. He is not poor. 52.000 dollar of debts, ok, but he has a job, that's not that bad. He could have been born in a poor country, struggling to eat. Why he has this feeling he is kind of a loser then even though he had such a good idea to get a back up plan!?

[Flybabe]

Ok hotrod, get your panties out of a knot.

My comment was not a personal attack against you, it was a reminder that despite your advising the OP that we were "telling him/her what to do", we were offering ADVICE, which was what was requested. That includes yours, AND mine, AND everyone elses. You seem to be very passionate about defending your opinion as the only valid choice - it's not.

We are here to offer differing points of view - different scenarios, different options. If you don't like that, I can't help you there.

I have no knowledge of anyone's personal experience in this industry other than mine. I would like to think that 19 years (14 professionally) counts for a "valid opinion". Not everyone wants to go to AC, or WJ, or Cathay, or Emirates. There's more to aviation than just the big iron.

It seems to me that the OP already has an opinion. I (and everyone else) would appreciate your acceptance of others opinions as well.

PS - I HAVE read the forum, thanks. I'm pretty sure that I don't have to remind you that a CPL isn't the end of training.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

You will learn quick that TuTightThong has a thing for trolling. Unless you agree with him you are wrong.

Now on topic, it is not fantasy that those with degrees will on average have a higher income in the future. The world is beyond competitive, and a high school diploma doesn't really cut it anymore. Get as much as you can (the advice of many senior flight crew members over the past many years) Seeing many familiar names saying "go for it" , really is pretty admirable. At least some people here are being honest. One minor disagreement, I wouldn't say commerce/business is way to common.Engineering is beyond oversubscribed with the lack thereof jobs. I think everyone can agree that the more competitive you are , the better off you will be.

[complexintentions]

Typhoon,

I have to agree with the sentiment of SunWuKong completely. I do understand why people are advising to finish the degree, and of course it makes sense to have as many options as possible. But the simple fact is, you can't do everything at once, and you have to choose. The very uncertainty of the industry is MORE of an argument to get into it when you can, not less of one!

I cannot overstate the importance of timing in the aviation industry. It's very simple...if you want to be a pilot, you have to get flying. If your major concern is trying to insure yourself against everything that life might throw at you, don't become a pilot. I'm not trying to sound harsh, that's just the reality. To be honest, if you're already worried about what to do if you lose a flying job or career, before you even start it, flying may not be for you, because it WILL happen (losing your job). Probably more than once, before you get to a place that is a little more secure.

So yes, having something to fall back on is a good idea. Or is it? I have been laid off multiple times. If I had had something substantial to "fall back on", perhaps I would have quit the industry. But I didn't and it forced me to continue to a point where I am now able to make far more money (if this is what we equate with security) from flying than I could have made with most degrees. But even if it hadn't panned out, I wouldn't have starved to death. I would have simply picked up where I left off with my education, not been "screwed" as flybabe says. Losing multiple job taught me to be incredibly adaptable, resourceful, flexible...no, I wouldn't relish the idea of starting over at a later age. But I don't fear it either.

I also think that pilots bemoaning "oh I wish I'd become a dentist/doctor/lawyer, I'd be making XX dollars" is more a reflection of human nature than reality. Do you know how many doctors/lawyers/etc have expressed to me they wish they were pilots? We always want what we don't have. So do what YOU want, not what you think is the safest option.

Good luck!

[Typhoon]

Thanks for the input complexintentions, I appreciate it. It seems like there are pros and cons from both side of the spectrum, which is what makes it such a difficult decision.

As far as instructing goes, is it possible to instruct part time? Or is it more of a full time commitment?

[whipline]

I have one. If I had to do it again I wouldn't. I've never been asked for it. I've never used it. It was a fun four years, but I also would have been earning money four years faster. What know one is telling you is your degree has an expiry period. If you don't use it your not going to be employable in your field anyways. If you want something to fall back on pick a trade instead.

[Dog Driver]

I would say finish your degree.... it looks pretty bad to start... but not be able to finish.