Missing PTR

[Scuba1690]

Hi,
I did a search but couldn't find the answers I was looking for.

I started flight training back in 2007 and have been doing it on and off since then due to school, money, and some other reasons. I was flying out of Westair in carp but that shut down and then I began flying out of CYOW with an instructor from Westair. I had to stop flying, and I dont know what happened to my PTR. I'm really not sure if it was misplaced or if I simply lost it because sometimes the instructor let me borrow it to get my logbook caught up.
Anyway I started flying again out of CYOW but the ptr is not there so I needed to start a new one. The hours I flew out of CYOW earlier are still in the computer so those were transferred over, but the 25 or so from Westair were not. I have all of the invoices from Westair but those were not proof enough, so what can I do to stop those 25 hours from going to waste? Now that its almost summer I will have the time to work fulltime and fund flying, but Im not sure if I will do it if those hours are completely shot.
Any advice?
Thanks,

Scuba

[Hedley]

Do you still have your logbook? Did you get it certified?

[Scuba1690]

I still have my logbook, but I never thought to get it certified unfortunately.

[Hedley]

I might suggest that using your personal logbook, backed up by your receipts, you re-construct your PTR. Get your new instructor to help you with this chore.

Also, get whatever hours certified on your logbook, that you can.

Despite what people here will tell you, it is a really good idea to:

1) keep your personal logbook up to date

2) keep your personal logbook in your possession - safely! Don't leave it in the back seat of your car in your flight bag, which thieves often mistake for camera bags

3) get your logbook certified by the CFI periodically - at least once a year, or upon completion of training for a licence or rating.

I know it's not much fun, and Lord knows I'm not very good at it either, but you're going to have to get better at paperwork. I have been flying since before you were born, and over the decades I have been repeatedly taught the lesson that no one really cares how well you fly. And, no one cares how well your aircraft is maintained. All that matters is the paper. Learn that lesson.

[Hedley]

On the subject of logbook certification ... various "experts" here will tell you that logbook certification is not necessary. They probably haven't looked at the Authorized Person's Manual, which explicitly spells out the need for a certified logbook for licence issuance.

It doesn't cost anything to get your logbook certified. I don't know why people insist upon not doing it. Aviation runs on a sea of paperwork. Get used to it.

Whenever I provide freelance instruction, I insist upon certifying the entry in the logbook of the person receiving the dual instruction, so no one can claim in the future that "that time doesn't count" or some such nonsense. At an FTU, get the CFI or someone delegated by him (eg your instructor) to periodically certify your logbook.

[Walker]

Hey Hedley,
Just for clarification my understanding was that TC no longer considers someone else's signature in the logbook to mean anything... Only the logbook holders signature "certifying" that the above is true. IE the references to certification in Personnel Licensing Procedures Manual no longer relates to the CFI/CP signatures but rather to JUST the applicants signature...

Now that being said this is all 2nd had from a TC licensing officer so im not sure how much weight to give it....

[gaamin]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... -03_bo.pdf

Either
"Flight times agree with certified logbook"
or
"Pilot Training Record"

[Walker]

But where is the definition of "certified"

IE who can legally "certify" something? My understanding is now only the person applying for the license, the reasoning being some sort of narrowing the scope of liability to a singular individual...
which was a change that happened X# of years ago because of _____??

IE you can keep a digital log as your sole log book now (not that it would be a wise idea.) If you were to apply for your AAs with it all you would have to do is print it out and sign the bottom saying the above is true IE certification...

However as stated above this is only what I have been told I haven't ever seen text stating things are one way or the other, any references anyone?

[Hedley]

I say again, I really don't understand why people put so much effort into not having their logbook certified, when it doesn't cost anything.

See TCA Authorized Person Guidelines. Example for PPL issuance, tab 5. Section 4, Experience.

In BOLD:

Notes: An Authorized Person must verify that the flight training requirements have been met by checking for a logbook, certified by the applicant's CFI or Instructor

Not much wiggle room there. See tab 9, Section 4, for an identical statement concerning CPL. etc.

Now, various "experts" here will tell you that they smoked their licences past their Authorized Persons whom weren't following the Guidelines. Good luck with that approach in the future.

[Shiny Side Up]

Now, various "experts" here will tell you that they smoked their licences past their Authorized Persons whom weren't following the Guidelines. Good luck with that approach in the future.

While I've never "smoked" one through, it is possible to get a logbook that isn't certified to use it for licensing purposes. This is a huge pain in the butt though (and requires a lot of investigative work - in the one case that I did it, we tracked down the current owner of the aircraft that the student did training on and got some photocopies of the journey log) and only happens with TC's blessing, in which case they authorize the AP to certify the logbook.

I should say that often TC is loathe to deal with these cases which are more frequent than one would like (that is to say uncertified log books and lost PTRs) and often will pass the buck and toss it into industry's duly authorized persons, who's job it is then is to deliver the often unwelcome news.

At the end of the day however, its not TC's job, its not the FTU's job its not your instructor's job to make sure your shit is taken care of. I'll never understand these days where often students will spend thousands of dollars on flight training, yet never think to save a receipt, or keep track of what they do. Like Hedley says, Aviation runs on paperwork, so until you get a license in your hot little hand, save every scrap of paper you get.

[Scuba1690]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I'll definetely make sure to regularly get my logbook certified in the future.

Apart from the missing PTR issue I have kept every scrap of paper I've ever gotten and keep it nicely organized in a binder. That is not enough tho, and apparently I need to do some investigative work to get more proof. I guess if I contact transport canada they will tell me exactly what proof is required?

Would it also be enough to simply contact my old instructors and get them to sign off on the hours? And then my certified logbook would just need to agree with flight times, although I have no Idea what that means.

"Flight times agree with certified logbook"
or
"Pilot Training Record"

What is meant by the flight times part? I.e if it refers to the certified logbook agreeing with flight times in the computer records or something then I guess that would be where to paperwork hunt would begin.

[Shiny Side Up]

What is meant by the flight times part? I.e if it refers to the certified logbook agreeing with flight times in the computer records or something then I guess that would be where to paperwork hunt would begin.

Neither a Certified logbook nor a PTR necessarily have all your flight times within. Being certified anly means that the ones within are valid and correct. When checking the box for a license app, the AP is essentially saying which source the flight times used on the license app come from.

[Walker]

So did some digging on this one, just called a licensing officer and was told the following:

you "shouldn't" be able to find any record of "certified by instructor or CFI" pertaining to logbooks anymore in any current TC publication...

Used to be in the regs some 13+ years ago, however was removed because of _________ (the original story I had heard was some sort of liability thing.) And it no longer carries any weight with TC. Now this was someone in Pacific region, perhaps someone elsewhere in the country would have a different interpretation.

THAT BEING SAID the officer I talked to did suggest you STILL get it signed on occasion because a number of older people in the industry still "think" its required and should you land a job with an old fashioned CP who isn't fully up to speed its probably easier to give him/her a certified logbook then try and convince him/her that sigs were taken off of TCs to do list more than a decade ago.


-no offense meant to the more experienced generations...

[Hedley]

you "shouldn't" be able to find any record of "certified by instructor or CFI" pertaining to logbooks anymore in any current TC publication

Incorrect. The Transport Canada Aviation Authorized Persons Guidelines - my copy is dated 15 dec 2009 - states in bold that a logbook is required for the issuance of a licence, certified by the CFI or Instructor.

Are you an Authorized Person? Which guidelines are you complying with?

[Walker]

Well this is probably a clear example of TC bureaucracy then. I can't seem to find a copy of said doc online at the moment it says (Manual under revision not publicated yet)


I am NOT an AP, and have no desire to delve into that *hit storm of paperwork.

Moral of the story kids:
1) It may or may not be requiered depending who you are talking to so best bet is to get it signed.
and
2) large bureaucracies are often not well organized.

[just curious]

There are still companies with old pilots who will ask to see your logbook, and expect to see it certified. May no longer be a rule, but try telling that to a potential employer...

[Hedley]

Right - so why fight so hard and not get your logbook certified?! If the CFI or CP wants $10,000 for a signature, tell him to reproduce and take a trip. However, in all my decades of aviation, I have never heard of a CFI/instructor/CP who charges for a logbook certification.

It doesn't cost anything, and it is required by TCA. I am still not sure why people are fighting something that doesn't cost anything.

[PAJ]

get your logbook certified by the CFI periodically - at least once a year, or upon completion of training for a licence or rating.

Does this advice apply to PPL's? In other words, will never be looking for a job flying but for insurance, ratings etc.

[Beefitarian]

PAJ it's free and you only have to ask so why wouldn't you? One day you might want to get a rating or CPL, then you can use the hours for that.

Hedley why wouldn't a Journey log meet that requirement? I mean I totally agree with you getting someone at the place you rent the plane from to certify your personal log every few years would be the way to go but...

[PAJ]

Never thought of it in those terms but as you say getting it certified takes little effort and possibly could pay off in the long run. Next stop - CFI of the flying club with logbook in hand.

Interesting point about the journey log. I think I'm going to bring mine along to show the CFI who presumably will want some proof of hours flown other than seeing my face at the club on a regular basis.

[Beefitarian]

Give him a call and chat, we might have a snag here. I would think he can and would do it provided he is the "Authorized Person". Sounds like you're flying your own plane.

That's kind of a situation that causes me to ask Hedley if the journey log meets the criteria. In my personal case I allways rent off FTUs so far. I may not fly the same plane all the time so having them certify my personal log just makes sense.

I fit in with the tin foil hat types pretty good but I have to put my name in the Journey log quite often and don't mind at all keeping a personal log, I'm proud of it and like to have it certified so that it can't be questioned and finally in case I get the notion of getting ratings.

Other than not wanting to write it down I didn't really understand that one guy here that was not his logging time.

I wonder if you can take the Journey log to transport and have them certify your personal log? Knowing them if they do there's a fee.

[Hedley]

can take the Journey log to transport and have them certify your personal log?

Not sure I understand that question. If you fly hours at an FTU with a CAR 406 OC then just get the CFI or his delegate (eg your instructor) to sign off your PTR and personal logbook.

If you are receive freelance instruction on a privately-owned aircraft (regardless of who owns it) you can get the freelance instructor to certify the dual time that he did with you, in your logbook. I do that all the time.

If you fly solo (or PIC, doesn't matter) in a privately-registered aircraft, get the owner to certify your personal logbook. You may be the owner of the aircraft. No problem. Make the entry in your personal logbook:

"As the owner of C-FLCK, I certify that the times in this personal log from Jan 1, 1901 to Jan 1, 1902 on C-FLCK correspond to those in the journey log". Sign and date it.

I have certified my own logbook, as the owner of the aircraft.

[Scuba1690]

@beefitarian- I've written everything down and the entries are all up to date but unsigned. There seems to be some debate on signing but seems like it would have been a good thing to do. Yeah, if I can track down the journey log for the planes from Carp I'll definetely do it regardless of what the fee is from TC. Assuming that the journey log with matching logbook entries is enough to be considered valid. Who knows where the planes/paperwork/Westair CFI is now though. I'll take a drive down there with my magnifying glass and start looking for clues I guess.

So, I'm a little confused. Can my logbook be certified by my old instructors if I can track them down?

[Hedley]

Can my logbook be certified by my old instructors if I can track them down?

Yes! As an Authorized Person, I would accept that, because it is explicitly what the Authorized Person Guidelines state, in bold.

Who knows where the planes/paperwork/Westair CFI is now though

Bob Burns is still around. I run into him, from time to time. PS I was CFI at Westair in 1996

[Scuba1690]

Perfect, I'll definetely start sending out some emails to old instructors then.
It's too bad that Westair went under, it was a good school. Always thought it had a nice feel to it.
I guess I'll start with a phone book, but do you happen to have any contact info that you can pm me?