jazz pilots pay the mortgage off fast

[Beefitarian]

Not if you love flying the Dash 8 there isn't.

[teacher]

I understand the status pay, but I'm not too sure that I agree with it....especially when dealing with such a wide range of aircraft....sure you have the highest paid Dash8 captains in the world, but also the lowest paid 757 captains....there's got to be a better compromise in there somewhere?

Why compromise? What's wrong with pay equity? There's no reason why one pilot should be paid more than another other than ego. Status pay is better for pilots as a whole and for the company. It's a win win. It's hard to transition to status pay if you don't have it BUT for a new company like Jazz was it's a great option for labour and cost stability.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

For me it makes sense when you are talking about airplanes that carry close to the same amount of people (ie RJ, Dash8), but when you have a much larger aircraft I think you need to look at what other pilots are being paid to fly that size of aircraft and work in some extra salary somehow....just my opinion...hopefully I will never have to worry about it

[Beefitarian]

I would want more pay to fly a CRJ than a plane with a real cabin or some commitment toward an upgrade to something else within a year.

[teacher]

For me it makes sense when you are talking about airplanes that carry close to the same amount of people (ie RJ, Dash8), but when you have a much larger aircraft I think you need to look at what other pilots are being paid to fly that size of aircraft and work in some extra salary somehow....just my opinion...hopefully I will never have to worry about it

Sorry for another 7700ing but..........

.................why? Why more pay to fly a bigger plane? Wouldn't you want to make the same regardless of what plane you fly? The issue that a company like AC has is the discrepancy between junior vs senior and narrow body vs wide body makes no sense. The narrow body guy works more days, flies more sectors and overall does more work. Top loading the senior guys and starving the junior ones serves no purpose. If at the end of your career you came out with the same amount of money why is status pay not a good thing? Pay the mortgage down faster, put more money away for retirement and have it grow in an RRSP rather than having it later when it's too late to get a good return and actually have money in your pocket when your expenses are actually the highest. I know some of you will say your pension is based on your whatever best last years but than the formula has to be changed. The company is going to pay out the same amount in salaries it just gets distributed differently.

IMHO the only benefit to formula pay is being able to tell people when you FINALLY get to a top level pay scale what you actually make while conveniently neglecting to tell them what you started at.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

IMHO the only benefit to formula pay is being able to tell people when you FINALLY get to a top level pay scale what you actually make while conveniently neglecting to tell them what you started at.

yes, but the same can be said for all airlines, including Jazz......both Jazz and AC have embarassing starting rates...unfortunately there is always a lineup of experienced guys waiting to jump in

[Redwine]

a/c capcity agreement end in 2020 a little birdie has indicated that is will go to the lowest bidder not a traditional carrier he metioned that is would be very wise for all jazz aviators to pay down as much of ur ppersonal debt asap /// for what it is worth // fly safe

In that case I think they would be able to pay it off much faster. Jazz would be much better off as a stand alone carrier competeing against air canada. Where would air canada find someone to operate 700+ daily flights anyway? Not going to happen, and if it does, big deal.

[TG]

Speaking about pilot's pay in general.
I honestly think it should goes with the amount of responsibilities you are being given or expected to be given while flying.

If you are current on aircraft A, B & C and ready to fly any one of them. Your pay should reflect the most complex aircraft/the one giving you the most responsibilities. Regardless which one you get to fly the most.
If you are only current with aircraft A.....A pay it should be



I like to think that I'm pay for the decisions I'm taking, not for my time.
Those decisions can cost a lot more with a bigger aircraft, no matter the amount of work you are putting on it.

[teacher]

IMHO the only benefit to formula pay is being able to tell people when you FINALLY get to a top level pay scale what you actually make while conveniently neglecting to tell them what you started at.

yes, but the same can be said for all airlines, including Jazz......both Jazz and AC have embarassing starting rates...unfortunately there is always a lineup of experienced guys waiting to jump in

Agreed. Our new contract has some what addressed that but there is still room for improvement in starting wages.

[co-joe]

Maybe WJ will take over the flying. They could probably out bid Jazz.

[rooster]

Why hasn't the op oldncold not replied in his own thread yet? I smell a troll.


Idiot...

[KAG]

No one has to provide 700 flights daily, AC decides to take back all rj flying and use those EMJ they have, and farm out the prop flying to the tier 3 carriers. Not a stretch, especially with the competition from Wj on the domestic front.

[teacher]

Taking back the CRJ flying doesn't make good business sense. They are "farming it out" for a reason. I think the more likely scenerio is farming out more flying like the EMB to smaller carriers. Not saying I agree with it but the CRJ has a much lower operating cost than the EMB. Sure the EMB is more roomy inside but we all know that money talks. Having said that I also see my previous statement as a reason AC will shop around within the decade for a more diversified tier 2 lift. If Bombardier goes forward with an even bigger dash (90-100 seat) I can see the economics once again shifting away from mainline.

Scope and road blocks will only protect for so long. Companies in the end will get what they want unfortunatly.

[Dark Helmet]

If I get laid off in 9 years because AC gave the Jazz CPA to another carrier, I will just go on EI.

I would get a paycheque to do nothing, abeit not as much as what I would be making at Jazz but probably more than the pilots that would eventually be doing my old job

Then I would go back to school, which would be paid for because I am on EI. Get a better job after I graduate.

There you go, I would get a free/or subsidized education and get paid while I am doing it. Courtesy of you clowns who are predicting the downfall of Jazz in 2020.

[Sage]

Taking back the CRJ flying doesn't make good business sense. They are "farming it out" for a reason. I think the more likely scenerio is farming out more flying like the EMB to smaller carriers. Not saying I agree with it but the CRJ has a much lower operating cost than the EMB. Sure the EMB is more roomy inside but we all know that money talks.

First, if the CRJ has such a low operating cost than the EM..J!..why is it that the regionals are trying to get rid of it and replace it with the Q400? Second, the EM..J is not a regional aircraft despite what the crusty 6-0 guys at Jazz says. The E190/5 can be basically thought of as a DC9 replacement...or the 737-200. It has the same number of seats but has a longer range and lower operating cost. AC does YYZ-YYJ (SEA, PDX, etc) on the E190. That's not a regional route. No DC9s at the regionals either. The E190 is more than roomy. It can go farther and carry more than any RJ. Carrying more cargo, carrying more pax, and more range is lowering the operating cost isn't it not?

[simplyput]

The E175 can be thought of as a DC-9? Give me a break. How many seats does it have? Doesn't the RJ705 have 2 more seats?

The E175 is a REGIONAL JET.

Most REGIONAL AIRLINES in N. America have them.

[Indanao]

Job security is the knowledge that you are underpaid at your current job.

Unless you are a public "servant".

Or, a Pilot.

[Sage]

The E175 can be thought of as a DC-9? Give me a break. How many seats does it have? Doesn't the RJ705 have 2 more seats?

The E175 is a REGIONAL JET.

Most REGIONAL AIRLINES in N. America have them.

Hmm..I think you need to read again or learn your numbers again dude. No where in my post did I mention the 175. I said 1 - 90!!! Even in one class configuration the 175 falls a mere 2 seats shy of the dc9-10 and -20 (according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC9.

Edited to include wikipedia.

[teacher]

If we're quoting wikipedia than:

Although commonly referred to with simply an "E" prefix, the jets are technically still Embraer Regional Jets ("ERJ"s).[7] Embraer dropped the ERJ prefix in its advertising early in production.

Regardless, you're right. Companies are replacing there CRJs with Q400s and maybe Q500s if they ever build it BUT I'm talking EMB vs CRJ. Seat for seat in the plane the CRJ is cheaper to operate. Regardless you and I both know that the top brass at both airlines would farm out ALL flying to the lowest bidder if they could and become a holding company collecting cheques.

[yycflyguy]

DC-9 range ~1200nm
EMJ-190 ~1800nm

DC-9 weight - 108,000lbs
EMJ 190 weight - 105,000 lbs-114 000 lbs

DC-9 pax 90-132
EMJ 190 pax 93

1990 DC-9 12 year blended day/night $160/hour
2011 EMJ 190 12 year rate $134

Anyone else see a problem here?

[simplyput]

I think its funny when AC guys talk about the EMB they only mention the 190, Sage do you guys just conveniently forget about the 73 seat EMB 175? Is the 175 a regional jet and the 190 not? They're both REGIONAL JETS. 40% of AC's fleet is REGIONAL JETS.

[yycflyguy]

I think its funny when AC guys talk about the EMB they only mention the 190, Sage do you guys just conveniently forget about the 73 seat EMB 175? Is the 175 a regional jet and the 190 not? They're both REGIONAL JETS. 40% of AC's fleet is REGIONAL JETS.

Wow did you miss the point. It was a pay comparison thing.

If you want to get into a pissing match. Here are some more numbers.

AC fleet size 202 aircraft of which 45 are 190s and 15 are 175. Yes only 15, which were rumoured to be sent back and replaced by more 190s. THAT is why we normally refer to 190s. It does the lion's share of the work between the two as there are 4 times more 190s than 175s. In case you don't have a calculator handy or are unable to do the math. All Embraer's represent 29.7% of the fleet, not 40% like you indicate.

A regional jet that flies 1800 nm and weighs over 100,000 lbs? Where does your definition of a regional jet end?

[Black Cat]

If I get laid off in 9 years because AC gave the Jazz CPA to another carrier, I will just go on EI.

I would get a paycheque to do nothing, abeit not as much as what I would be making at Jazz but probably more than the pilots that would eventually be doing my old job

Then I would go back to school, which would be paid for because I am on EI. Get a better job after I graduate.

There you go, I would get a free/or subsidized education and get paid while I am doing it. Courtesy of you clowns who are predicting the downfall of Jazz in 2020.

LMAO. +1498

[rudder]

DC-9 range ~1200nm
EMJ-190 ~1800nm

DC-9 weight - 108,000lbs
EMJ 190 weight - 105,000 lbs-114 000 lbs

DC-9 pax 90-132
EMJ 190 pax 93

1990 DC-9 12 year blended day/night $160/hour
2011 EMJ 190 12 year rate $134

Anyone else see a problem here?

The 1990's are not coming back for AC nor any other airline. Pining about the past is a waste of time and effort. The industry has been reset and so has the profession. Call it a DC9, call it an Embraer. Either way, there is a new rate in the industry for 93 seat jets.

[yycflyguy]

DC-9 range ~1200nm
EMJ-190 ~1800nm

DC-9 weight - 108,000lbs
EMJ 190 weight - 105,000 lbs-114 000 lbs

DC-9 pax 90-132
EMJ 190 pax 93

1990 DC-9 12 year blended day/night $160/hour
2011 EMJ 190 12 year rate $134

Anyone else see a problem here?

The 1990's are not coming back for AC nor any other airline. Pining about the past is a waste of time and effort. The industry has been reset and so has the profession. Call it a DC9, call it an Embraer. Either way, there is a new rate in the industry for 93 seat jets.

Disagree. If pilots could only show some sort of unity and integrity the wages and work conditions would not have deteriorated to the point they are at now and only heading in one direction. By perpetuating the myth that the "golden days" of pay are gone and there is nothing that can be done to get back to it is a defeatist attitude.