New TA reached!

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whiteguy
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by whiteguy »

hithere wrote:Has there been any change to pass travel priorities in this TA?
Good luck getting any other agreements if there is!
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Black Cat
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Black Cat »

What is a pilot worth?

If you listen to the company they will try and make you believe, not much. They will tell you that you're a dime a dozen and lucky to have your job. They will tell you how important they are, and how expendable you are. They will tell you times are tough and you must sacrifice and give till it hurts to keep your job. They will slowly degrade your working conditions and benefits. They will show you no respect and count on this to make you believe they are right. All this while they openly bath in money and brag about their success in the media.

What does the airline have for sale? What is valuable product they sell that pays them the large salaries and bonuses? They sell what you do. The only thing they have for sale that generates one cent of income is your ability to take their customers in their aircraft and transport them to another place keeping them safe at the same time. Without you and your abilities they are owners of the most expensive lawn ornaments in the country. What is a pilot worth? That is not for them to say anymore. That is for us to say. It is time for us to say it! Keep the Faith.

***Posted by one of our ALPA leaders during negotiations last year. Hope he doesn't mind me posting it here. Its a stressful time, best of luck to you all.
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Norwegianwood
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Norwegianwood »

[quote="Black Cat"]
***Posted by one of our ALPA leaders during negotiations last year.quote]

This is the one thing missing in acpa, leadership. GOOD leadership, the inner sanctum of acpa are really good at one thing..... Looking after themselves and it will show in the TA as we go forward................. :-(
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777longhaul
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by 777longhaul »

This is for 600RVR

This post, by Rockie, is on this forum. He states that the ACP forum, which many retired pilots, and active pilots, are not allowed to be members of, have the new TA information. ( I have seen it on other forums also). I sure hope you posted your "LOW" comments on the ACP forum.

=========================================================================================

LOTS of discussion recently on the ACP forum regarding (alleged) changes pending to our pension plan. All of it centred on taking action to save whatever we can out of it. DC, modified conditions for DB, pay groupings (status pay lite?), and others. Everything but the most obvious solution and one that's been staring them square in the face for years now. Let people work longer to increase their pensionable years and take the load off the existing pension. It is so obvious I'm embarrassed nobody at ACPA can see it through their pathological desire to continue discriminating against their own members.

Instead we have the YYZ LEC Chairman admit that ACPA is still lobbying the government to include modifications to their intended law prohibiting mandatory retirement for federal workers. Could it be they want companies with a pension plan excluded perhaps?

How do they square their mindless mission to save mandatory retirement with their attempts to save the pension?
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

Chill out... or lay off the free coffee. It has you a little jumpy.

Read my posts in General section. Nothing has been even presented to the membership. Inflammatory comments like that are the reason people can't get over the past.

I, for one, was happy when Jazz got their career contract. Maybe you could return some good vibes? This is more than just ALPA v ACPA. There is an entire generation of pilots getting themselves sucked into this toxic whipsawing between groups. Nothing is being done to spite you and your livelihood. It is about negotiating a deal for OUR guys this time.
yycflyguy,
If you read my whole statement, it is directed at those who will vote yes. I was sending good vibes to your group, right up until Sky Regional became a reality, then I read what is contained in your apparant ACPA communication and the wording is very specific, leaves no room for error, i'll even bold the key words for you;
Scope protections are included that restrict domestic outsourcing while providing a diversification of our Tier 2 flying away from Jazz.
We made gains in our contract, without any ill intent towards your group and it makes me sick to think that not that long ago, Jazz Pilots were essentially paid by the same employer, now we're too expensive. Because of Sky Regional and the previously predicted ramifications, our internal communication have been laden with phrases like, "we have to remain competetive" and "keep our cost down" and "2020's going to be very different for us"
That last one is from a manager.
Let's be honest here, whats going to happen is you(collective) vote yes because the gains are too good, then there'll be some buyers remorse when you see the damage to the relationship because if you think it was bad before wait and see. That's my prediction, I also predict Jazz will be preparing to be a LCC competitor of yours by 2020, may the best or cheapest Pilot group win
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by 600RVR »

777longhaul,

first of all you are correct Rockie did post that on another thread, I'm sorry but I don't read anything to do with retirement anymore on this forum or any other because as we all know its out of our hands, its a hard subject with one track minds on both sides and reading on this subject is like a fish in a fish bowl, if you know what I mean.

As for Rockie yes he should know better, but again he has his mind on one thing only. He jumped on the flypast60 train for his own benafit, do you think he would care if the government grandfathered in a new retirement age like in the US, that he would care about you return, (dont think so). If he has such a hate on for ACPA and the direction they are going he should with draw his name from the union or run in the next election, he must have the time he has over 3000 posts on this forum.

As for you sir please accept my apology for calling you out on this, I should know better. I do wish you retired guys were on the AC Pilots forum. Now more than ever we could use some of your wisdom through what will probably the biggest contract that will define the direction of AC pilots. And trust me from what I'm hearing I don't like it. Its unfortunate that a few retired pilots had to spoil it for the rest of you.

Cheers
600RVR
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Rockie
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Rockie »

600RVR wrote:As for Rockie yes he should know better, but again he has his mind on one thing only. He jumped on the flypast60 train for his own benafit, do you think he would care if the government grandfathered in a new retirement age like in the US, that he would care about you return, (dont think so). If he has such a hate on for ACPA and the direction they are going he should with draw his name from the union or run in the next election, he must have the time he has over 3000 posts on this forum.
I suggest you read more of my posts. The end of mandatory retirement and the contractual changes that will certainly result will harm me more than the vast majority of pilots due to my specific location on the seniority list. Which I assure you is not very high. What will harm us all more though is the senseless and contradicting positions this union is taking on a number of issues, first and foremost the retirement issue.

Our pension is under pressure. Under the MEC's direction the negotiating committee negotiated an end to the DB pension for anybody hired after the contract is ratified, thereby throwing those future members under the bus and creating yet another class of Air Canada pilot. They guaranteed the demise of the DB pension because from that moment on every pilot that retires draws from the pension, but nobody replaces him to contribute to it. Thinking ahead (which this union is incapable of doing), there will be hundreds and hundreds of pilots drawing from a pension that nobody is contributing to. In your opinion is that sound thinking?

The mandatory retirement issue is unquestionably more relevant to the health of our pension now than it ever was. ACPA's own research told them that eliminating mandatory retirement would be beneficial for the health of the DB pension fund. That was before they brought up the DC split which will only put it in more jeopardy. And they are still fighting to kick everybody out at age 60.

None of this makes any sense. I don't have a hate on for ACPA. I have a deep desire for responsible and intelligent union representation, and if ACPA can pull their head out of their asses and provide that I will fully support them.
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tallun123
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by tallun123 »

Rockie;

The issues you bring up Re DB and DC are valid. These issues were discussed for aprox 1.5 hours at the last ACPA meeting in YYZ including the "closed" CAL DB pension plan.

I m sure the ACPA rep that presented the facts would be happy to answer your questions/concerns.

Cheers
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Les Lavoie
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Les Lavoie »

600RVR wrote:

Its unfortunate that a few retired pilots had to spoil it for the rest of you.

Cheers
600RVR[/quote]

Well, I have kept out of these undertakings here, up to now, but your last sentence really ruins any goodwill you would like to demonstrate to the readers here. I am one of those retirees you are refering to. The ONLY thing that I advocated then and still the ONLY thing that I advocate NOW is that the laws of Canada take precedence over ANY agreement, contract, you name it. So, '' spoiling it for the rest of you'' as you put it does hold any water with me.

If you want to hold out on your island, you are welcome to continue in that path but as recent events have evolved, your chances of success would be similar to an icecube in a foundry furnace.

From the little I read about your TA, it is just like the Fly Past 60 fiasco. You are been led down the Garden Path into eventual oblivion. Someone wrote Hindenburg Part two, how appropriate.
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Last edited by Les Lavoie on Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rockie
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Rockie »

tallun123 wrote:Rockie;

The issues you bring up Re DB and DC are valid. These issues were discussed for aprox 1.5 hours at the last ACPA meeting in YYZ including the "closed" CAL DB pension plan.

I m sure the ACPA rep that presented the facts would be happy to answer your questions/concerns.

Cheers
I'm sure they would tallun123, unfortunately I no longer believe anything they say.
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MeAndMrPenguin
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

This pension scheme has been doomed for years. We can lament all day about throwing the next generation under the bus but it doe's not matter.

As a more recently joined ACPA member, I am actually curious if there will be provisions for me to lay in front of the bus too. Although quite lucrative and often bragged about, the current pension is a far worse option. Preying every financial crisis that the solvency of an airline will continue, along with your future retirement is horrific. This pension works for those that have collected, but represents a dangerous Ponzi scheme. The only reason it has lasted is because it continually gets support from those that are in to deep or about to retire.

What happened to personal savings? Why is cradle to grave protection from a Corporation so sought after? What it is, is the remanence of a previous crown corporation along with the gold plated attitude that afflicts all government workers.

The pension is a collection of our money, the companies money (liability) and investment in various instruments. Continuous economic malaise should sure make us all uncomfortable of what lays ahead. Like holes in a ship, every day we see more leaks. Likely inflation, unabated money printing of the worlds reserve currency, civil unrest, food prices rocketing...and the list goes on.

On top of this, the current plan represents golden handcuffs. The ability to switch airlines and create a more free market for our wages is severely hampered. As we likely approach continued shortages in quality pilots, this detriment will become even more apparent.

I have always believed that a bird in hand is more valuable than two in the bush. Make fair matching contributions to me. Let me invest my money in my own way. Let me control my own retirement. Don't let me suffer the same fate of current pensioners that are back to work because of greedy banks and insolvent governments. Don't make my stomach turn every 4 years, as I worry about the pension.

We face less rosy economic times. We have passed peak oil. We have lost sight of the big picture.

The next 30 years of aviation will be much different from the last and it is about time we start to face this fact.
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Rockie
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Rockie »

A smart person will have their own investments backed up by a healthy DB pension fund. For many years I've heard people say they would rather take the money and do their own retirement, but let's face it, if we were all that good at money management none of us would be flying airplanes for a living.

Professional fund managers using the system as only they know how with the power of a multi-billion dollar fund will always do better than 90% of us can manage on our own. A DB plan also provides protections over the difficult years that a personal plan cannot.

This DC scheme came from way out in left field and none of the members saw it coming. No consultation, No information packages. Given ACPA's proven inability to properly research anything and then present the complete unvarnished truth to the members, I have zero confidence that the MEC have a clue what they might be selling to us.
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

LCC (ZIP), LCC (767), CRJ LOU, PG LOU, DC for new-hires are all incarnations of the same animal - B Scale. It means that there will be 2 classes of pilots on the AC pilot seniority list. If that scenario is acceptable, then vote yes. The AC pilot group seem comfortable with these types of circumstances as they have embraced them in the past. However, in every case they have been subsequently identified as a cancer and removed. Are there not any lessons to be learned here?

What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.
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MeAndMrPenguin
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

If I am not mistaken, many good money managers exist outside of DB pension plans. Aside from that , studies and history show that money mangers rarely consistently beat any market. What they are good at is extracting fees in a system where they always get there money even if you lose! What a great business! 90 percent will do better than someone on their own? How many freedom 55 advertisements have you watched and bought into?

An established pension plan provides protection? What world do you live in. Why are a lot of my parents friends back working part time? It didn't matter whether they directed their money inside or outside a DC. The ones with gold plated pensions are still ok, but if this new economic reality continues, they may be next! Hint hint, Greece? The fact that they are ok is because the funds must still pay them at the future peril of the younger members. Sounds something like...Social Security? Sounds something like the current baby boomers selling their souls by running incredible deficits at the peril of myself and my children. The current system is a self feeding time bomb whose solvency scares the pants off of you and will torment me for the next 20 years.

I have friends at other airlines that are part of DB plans. I am jealous. They at least have some control of their future. Us, we are holding our breath preying for continuously abundant cheap oil (none left), faith in some wizard on wall street that has recently/historically proven how brazen and crooked he is and the lack of ability in Air Canada management to play corporation shell games that threaten my future lively hood. Every year we hear about our pensions and their problems. Every year we get to worry about whether it will be there. Why do we do this to ourselves? I know, so we can retire, and still worry every year about our pension.

Yes, invest outside. Yes, invest like you won't get any pension. No, stop living in a dream world where we leave our futures in the hands of corporations and investment bankers.
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600RVR
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by 600RVR »

Les Lavoie wrote:600RVR wrote:

Its unfortunate that a few retired pilots had to spoil it for the rest of you.

Cheers
600RVR

Well, I have kept out of these undertakings here, up to now, but your last sentence really ruins any goodwill you would like to demonstrate to the readers here. I am one of those retirees you are refering to. The ONLY thing that I advocated then and still the ONLY thing that I advocate NOW is that the laws of Canada take precedence over ANY agreement, contract, you name it. So, '' spoiling it for the rest of you'' as you put it does hold any water with me.

If you want to hold out on your island, you are welcome to continue in that path but as recent events have evolved, your chances of success would be similar to an icecube in a foundry furnace.

From the little I read about your TA, it is just like the Fly Past 60 fiasco. You are been led down the Garden Path into eventual oblivion. Someone wrote Hindenburg Part two, how appropriate.[/quote]


Les Lavoie,

I think maybe just maybe you have me taken out of context. When I say a few retired guys spoiled it for the rest I was refering to those couple of retirees who copied posts from the last forum to use against ACPA. So in other words its very unforunate that all who are retired got tarred with the same brush. If you were one of them who done this then yes I would have an issue with that, but I don't think you were (just to be clear). So hopefully I didn't ruin any goodwill because I think most readers know what I was refering too. I do wish you, because I use to read your post on the old forum, Doug Moore and a few other were still on it because now more than ever we could use your wisedom because you have been through negots many times. Hope this clears it up a little


Have a nice day
600RVR

p.s how did you know I was on a Island :wink:
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accumulous
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by accumulous »

If all the above is true then the Hindenburg has already crashed.

The only thing that appears to be emerging from that Big Hydrogen Wreck is a Quirky Patchwork Quilt of special interest groups we loosely refer to as a Union.

Frankenstein.

Here’s the Recipe for the Lumbering Lurching Airhead we’ve built to replace the Airship.

1. Hand off most of your flying to a Regional and when they offer to give it back to you in a Merger of strength, well, just slap them around a bit and get yourself a 300 Million Dollar Lawsuit while they start the Wide-Body Operation you just gave away.

As a little capper, make your own Low Cost Wide-Body Airline and show those Regional guys how you got them right where they want you.

2. Negotiate yourself into a De-indexed Pension so the entire membership loses about 5 Billion Dollars in lifetime benefits. Then recommend everybody vote Yes for it.

3. Vote yourself a 25 Million Dollar losing project to dismantle the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the Federal Court of Canada.

Don’t forget to negotiate yourself a pay raise on your next contract so you’ll have enough to pay the 25 million to the guys you tried to push put the door who will pay for the Defined Benefit Pension that you plan to give away, by continuing to fund it instead of draw down on it and put it in a position for re-indexation to get the 5 Billion in lost lifetime benefits back, just in time for you to dissolve it.

4. Do an internal study that shows how much the Defined Benefit Pension gains from flying past 60 like every other airline in North America, then take the study out to the garbage so nobody can see it because you’re afraid it might save you the 25 Million Dollars you’re losing on the botched plan to exterminate 700 senior pilots, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and the Federal Court of Canada.

5. Take all of the above, mash it into jelly and scoop it into Frankenstein’s skull cavity, and you’d pretty much have the monster that has crawled out of the Hindenburg wreckage.

Way to go boys.

How hard do you think CUPE is laughing right about now.

Nobody else is doing any of this to us.

Ever notice the one defining characteristic? We're doing it all to ourselves.

We don't have the collective intelligence to deal with even the simplest concepts.

Myopic Madness.
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

It will pass. Why?

- eliminate the PG LOU
- offer the 320 pilots a significant pay raise through aircraft groupings
- let all current pilots keep DB
- tell the 767 pilots (who will all become 787 pilots within the term of the contract) that the Widebody LCC operation will not negatively affect them
- take nothing away from the super-senior 330/777 pilots
- status quo on age 60

Pass travel and scope are just candy. There is no big picture. There is no long term view. CR knows what it will take to get a 'yes'. It will pass at 75%.

p.s. a marginal deal is 2 years. A satisfactory deal is 3 years. A good deal is 4 years. A great deal is 5 years. Apparently, this has been labelled as a good deal.
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Last edited by rudder on Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
truedude
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by truedude »

accumulous wrote:If all the above is true then the Hindenburg has already crashed.

The only thing that appears to be emerging from that Big Hydrogen Wreck is a Quirky Patchwork Quilt of special interest groups we loosely refer to as a Union.

Frankenstein.

Here’s the Recipe for the Lumbering Lurching Airhead we’ve built to replace the Airship.

1. Hand off most of your flying to a Regional and when they offer to give it back to you in a Merger of strength, well, just slap them around a bit and get yourself a 300 Million Dollar Lawsuit while they start the Wide-Body Operation you just gave away.

As a little capper, make your own Low Cost Wide-Body Airline and show those Regional guys how you got them right where they want you.

2. Negotiate yourself into a De-indexed Pension so the entire membership loses about 5 Billion Dollars in lifetime benefits. Then recommend everybody vote Yes for it.

3. Vote yourself a 25 Million Dollar losing project to dismantle the Canadian Human Rights Commission and the Federal Court of Canada.

Don’t forget to negotiate yourself a pay raise on your next contract so you’ll have enough to pay the 25 million to the guys you tried to push put the door who will pay for the Defined Benefit Pension that you plan to give away, by continuing to fund it instead of draw down on it and put it in a position for re-indexation to get the 5 Billion in lost lifetime benefits back, just in time for you to dissolve it.

4. Do an internal study that shows how much the Defined Benefit Pension gains from flying past 60 like every other airline in North America, then take the study out to the garbage so nobody can see it because you’re afraid it might save you the 25 Million Dollars you’re losing on the botched plan to exterminate 700 senior pilots, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and the Federal Court of Canada.

5. Take all of the above, mash it into jelly and scoop it into Frankenstein’s skull cavity, and you’d pretty much have the monster that has crawled out of the Hindenburg wreckage.

Way to go boys.

How hard do you think CUPE is laughing right about now.

Nobody else is doing any of this to us.

Ever notice the one defining characteristic? We're doing it all to ourselves.

We don't have the collective intelligence to deal with even the simplest concepts.

Myopic Madness.

Now that's progress!
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Norwegianwood
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Norwegianwood »

[quote="rudder"]It will pass. Why?


- status quo on age 60

quote]


Head still firmly in the sand? You really (still) believe this????

Not according to all the courts in this fair land.

Head shake, head shake........
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SilentMajority
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by SilentMajority »

Rockie wrote:

This DC scheme came from way out in left field and none of the members saw it coming. No consultation, No information packages. .
Rockie: I think in all fairness to our negotiators, the DC scheme (for new hires) has been looming on the horizon for some time.

It is no secret that the Air Canada Pilots DB Pension Plan is one of the most generous plans in all of North America ....in any industry not just aviation. Given the environment that airlines will be facing going forward...some changes to our hugely generous DB plan were inevitable and my guess is that the new pilots coming on board will come to accept it as the new reality. As Rovinescu stated earlier this year....Air Canada is basically a pension plan which happens to be connected to an airline.

You are absolutely correct that force-retiring pilots at 60.....ending their contributions and forcing them to start drawing down is completely counter-productive and will only accelerate the DB plan's continual demise.

Having said that, I do not envy what the negotiating team has been tasked with for the past 6 months and waiting until the TA is clearly fleshed out is probably in everyone's best interest.
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Last edited by SilentMajority on Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Inverted2
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Inverted2 »

"diversification of our Tier 2 flying away from Jazz."

Diversifying it to non-unionized lower paying companies. Smart move. :roll:
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Rockie »

Silentmajority

It may end up that our DB pension plan becomes unsustainable at some point, but we are not there yet. We have done nothing or even investigated ways to safeguard its health. We are just all of a sudden cutting it off with no notice, no discussion, and no proper investigation as to the consequences to the existing plan going into the future. Nothing.

It just all of a sudden ceases to exist for newhires.

On top of that our union is on a pathological and destructive mission to prevent a measure that they have been explicitly told will be beneficial to the pension's health. And that's totally aside from the ethical and legal implications of them discriminating against its own members.

Whose side are they on?
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SilentMajority
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by SilentMajority »

Rockie wrote: Whose side are they on?
I'm not sure that even ACPA knows the answer to that. To watch their actions over the past 10 years convinces this writer that they do not have the maturity nor the foresight to represent the pilots of AC.

This is not ACPA-bashing, it is just an honest assessment (IMO) of how they have continued to manipulate the silent majority. The fact that they have not been able to see the long term ramifications of their actions is further proof of the need for mature, experienced oversight....oversight which is in evidence in organizations such as the IAMAW, CAW, CUPE, ALPA, IFALPA.

With regard to the changes to our DB plan and the introduction of a DC plan for those not even on payroll yet ......my suggestion is that we wait and read the fine print when the TA is presented.

The airline business is changing at lightning speed and those that do not react pro-actively will be doomed to fail.
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Last edited by SilentMajority on Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hithere
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by hithere »

Shall I assume that because no one has answered my question about pass priorities that it is unchanged in this TA? Surely someone knows? Rudder?
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yycflyguy
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by yycflyguy »

- offer the 320 pilots a significant pay raise through aircraft groupings
Not true. The "significant" - which translates to proper formula - pay raise is for the Embraer. The only comment I have heard about the A320 is a return of the additional 5% that was shed from payroll to make the company more competitive with Westjet in 03. Now Westjet rates exceed those at AC.

THIS IS ALL STILL SPECULATION.

The earliest anyone in the membership will be able to see it is April 11th at the roadshows. Unless the package is available after MEC approval on April 6th (doubtful that date will be used)
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