New TA reached!

[bluemic]

Fwiw, I predict that the pilots will agree to a DC plan for new hires.  (I know, I know...what's next?  The Lotto numbers maybe?)

I also predict that the other unions will do what they've always done when dealing with management - they'll stand firm - and their DB plans will remain untouched, including for new-hires.

This will once again prove several things about the species known as AC Pilots:

A) that - if given a chance - the breed will always eat their young (and set adrift their elders - but that's for a whole 'nuther thread!),
B) that the species are naturally-born myopic, which usually leads to blindness,
C) that they are normally castrated at birth - although the micro-surgery is occasionally performed upon initial acceptance into the pack,
D) that they are easily distracted by shiny baubles, particularly those of a greenish hue or large silver-coloured ones,
E) that they have the memory span of an adult Mayfly, and
F) that they are a squabbling, fractionalised breed prone to cower in small groups, that snip and yelp at both strangers and others of their own species.

Strangely however, it has also been observed that many of the strain appear to experience a metamorphosis as they near the end of their sixth decade.  Many individuals undergo a transformation and their vision clears, their memory expands and - in a rare few - they begin to experience what appear to be small swellings between their hind legs.

Alas, invariably this change occurs too late.

And thus endeth today's Zoology lesson.

Now, back to those Lotto numbers.

From the ice...

mic


Email via iPhone

[James Delgaty]

[Norwegianwood]

Hi there Mike, Doug and Ray.

Apparently I'm the only person from ACPA writing on this forum with there real name,

As I have said in the past I will protect your RCA/Top hat what ever you want to call it. I did say that in the interview and I stand by it,

But now I do need your help,

James

James, let me get this straight, this is a cry for "help" to 3 retired pilots who have NO membership, NO acpa representation, NO vote, NO on any forum acpa blesses?
I'm just plain baffeled.........

[accumulous]

I also predict that the other unions will do what they've always done when dealing with management - they'll stand firm - and their DB plans will remain untouched, including for new-hires.

No question about that.

The Pilots will be the only ones giving their last asset away like a Deer in the Headlights.

Why?

As stated elsewhere, none of this stuff is complicated.

Pilots will throw themselves under a Truck and get crushed if you tell them there’s a Seniority Number up for grabs under that Truck.

The fact that they’ll get themselves crushed under the Truck does not factor into the thought process.

Job 1 - get the number.
Job 2 - get crushed.

An AC Pilot will lob a Billion Dollar Defined Benefit Pension Plan under the wheels of the same Truck for any of three reasons.

1. Strategic Myopia
2. Seniority
3. (1 & 2)

Somehow, somewhere, agreeing, like a panting dog, to throw away a Billion Dollar Defined Benefit asset has something to do, remotely or not, with the perception that the Holy Grail, the Brass Ring, the target of the Runaway Train, the target of the Hindenburg, that almighty Seniority List, might somehow, even minutely, be jigged even a tiny, teensy-weensy little bit in favor of a low or middling seniority holder.

If you parked a Seniority Number on the bottom of the ocean, an AC Pilot would book a trip on the Titanic to get it.

[Flying Low]

If you parked a Seniority Number on the bottom of the ocean, an AC Pilot would book a trip on the Titanic to get it.

This may be one of my all time favourite quotes from AvCanada!

[c170b53]

The only thing that will change at Air Canada if a DC contract is accepted in my opinion will be short term shareholder value gleaned from a perception that AC pension problems are over.
DB pension liabilities will still be there but a good spin will be spun. Could some employees be rewarded by shareholders for the perceived increase in value?
The problem that Air Canada faces (and any DB plan) is the long bond interest rate where a ¼% change equals about $320M in liabilities (at AC).
As well A 1% change in the discount rate means an approximate 15% change in the total liability amount of any DB pension plan. The Air Canada MTF which holds all of the money for all 11 of Air Canada’s pension plans currently has about $10.6B in assets. That means that a 1% change in the discount rate will increase or decrease the liabilities of the fund by about $1.6B.
It can be seen in a rising interest market environment how easy it was for the company to take contribution holidays and why they and other plans have been crying since rates began their decline. Fail to plan and you plan to fail.
Good luck guys.

[Deerinheadlights]

I would love to contribute $1000/month to pension.If I could only find a job that pays well for say 80hrs or so a month work.If I could do this I would retire at 50.
The fact is that you have not contributed $1000 a month for 30 years.

I would love to NOT have a company pension.It's my money let me invest it.Any amount I want no limits.If I want to blow it so be it.Let me take control for myself.Then it is no one else but me to blame if I screw it up or enjoy the rewards.

Thanks for thinking that I would make a good pilot.Infact I used to be one.I enjoyed it.Only downfall was that as a pilot you have to hang out with other pilots! Well at least one other one anyway and you can't hangout as friends.One always has to be the boss.

All kidding aside.

I think that the pay scale for pilots is what has screwed it all up.All the hard work is done at very low pay at the start of career..Long days jumping from a/c to a/c.The problem is the greed at the top."I did it so should you" mentality.Seniorty screws with our brains and makes us believe that we deserve something for it when all it is supposed to be is a way of trying to keep the company/other employee's on a fair playing field.

As for the life being fair? Shouldn't it be? Next you'll want to give women the right to vote!

I too believe they (present AC pilots)will throw thier new hire brothers/sisters to the DC wolves.

[habs]

"Only downfall was that as a pilot you have to hang out with other pilots!"

Man you hit it! As a former tradesman turned airline pilot you actually aren't kidding. On average I've never met such a grandiose bunch of self righteous/important people anywhere. And they are hands-down some of the most mechanically inept folk I've ever seen. It doesn't matter the airline, some of the cancellations and aircraft groundings I've witnessed and read about in reports reek of velvet gloves. Most don't even know how their own car works. Not to say every cx or grounding so everyone relax.

Just as a pilot having had another career prior to this, I am often embarassed by this "profession" and its members. Carry on.

[Norwegianwood]

[quote="habs
Just as a pilot having had another career prior to this, I am often embarassed by this "profession" and its members. Carry on.[/quote]


Soooo go back to being a tradesman or is the DB that you have coming that keeps you hanging in there with such inferior people!! Get over yourself indeed.................

[Fanblade]

Fwiw, I predict that the pilots will agree to a DC plan for new hires.  (I know, I know...what's next?  The Lotto numbers maybe?)

I also predict that the other unions will do what they've always done when dealing with management - they'll stand firm - and their DB plans will remain untouched, including for new-hires.

Do ya think the CAW's concern is genuine for AC employees? As in the CAW is acting in the best interest of AC employees pensions? Or are they acting in the best interest of CAW members at large?

Leaving this to an outside force is a gamble. Could be better, could be bad. Remember all employees groups (all unions), in the summer of 09, agreed to enter into a process that would fix the pension problems at AC. That promise was made to the gov't, in exchange for the club loan. All unions signed it.

Part of that agreement was to look at what corresponding employee groups at competitor airline had in relation to pension.

So if you are the CAW, and you represent an employee group that doesn't have corresponding employees at a competitor with a pension, what would your course of action be, now that negot's have started and you have hanging over your head what was signed in 09?

[Fanblade]

Hi Fanblade,

I have been trying to understand your concern about the "distressed pension workout scheme" that you apparently believe puts us at a disadvantage. I refer again to this analysis of the proposed federal pension plan workout scheme: http://www.mcmillan.ca/Files/118845_Dis ... n_0111.pdf

Hi Doug,

Waiting for a clear understanding myself. All I know is the ACPA DB pension is at threat of regulator intervention as stated by the MEC. Not sure if it is the letter ACPA signed in 09 wrt to promising a solution to the pension problems in exchange for the club loan, the new legislation, or a combination of the two.

Standing by for new atis message.

[turbo-beaver]

FYI:
I received this note from another union official at AC regarding the pilot's new TA. As it says, it is unofficial and it will be interesting to see shortly how accurate it is. It is also interesting to see the only aircraft where they are targeting pay is the 777 where the majority of the age 65 guys will be coming back on. Methinks another foolish move that will probably lead up to even further litigation down the road.
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Subject:Unofficial details for Air Canada Pilots Tentative Collective Agreement
Greetings my kind readers,

I hope you are all well.

Here are some general details regarding the pilots contract.

This is not official. Just general info I have been made aware of.

The pilots have been negotiating since Oct. 4, 2010. Their executive is about to accept a tentative collective agreement.
The pilots membership will have to vote on April 15th, 2011, to either accept or reject this new contract proposal.

Their executive (12 individuals) will have two full weeks to review this new contract proposal. But, the pilot membership will have a few days before they get to vote. There are around 3000 AC pilots.


Here is some general details, and once again, this is not officially released information.

AC Pilots Tentative Collective Agreement:

Wage increase of 20% over 5 years. (It is not clear if this is a straight pay increase of 4% a year for 5 years. This 20% may include some Training Bonuses and other Bonuses. So, a mix of a wage increase and maybe some performance bonuses.)

Increase of pay for Embrear Captains and lowering of pay for Boeing 777 first officers. They are switching to a strandardized formula, so pilots will be paid for the type of aircraft. Currently, pilots get higher pay depending on the weight and speed of the aircraft. The heavier and faster the plane, the higher the pay

Reducing the amount of pilots on reserve. They will have the option to Volunteer Extension to 100 hours. (For those Flight Attendants who want Volunteer Extension to go to Reserve first before Blockholders, you now have an idea of what AC thinks about that.)

Create a low-cost leisure airline. AC Pilots would fly it, but it would most likely include a lower wage scale.

Newly hired pilots would receive a Defined Contribution pension plan. Current pilots would stay on the current Defined Benefit plan.

Defined Benefit Pension Plan (D.B.P.): You are guaranteed the amount you receive on a monthly basis from the company once you retire. The liability and risks are on the company.

Defined Contribution Pension Plan (D.C.P.): What you pay in your pension plan while working is a set amount. But, the amount you receive once you retire depends on market conditions. So, if the market goes down when you retire, you would take the hit, and get less money every month. If the market is doing well, then you get more money. The company is no longer liable for market conditions.

In next few weeks, I will be writing some more emails with my colorful commentary as always.

And, if I was a pilot and if it is true that AC wants new employees to be on a Defined Contribution Pension Plan, I would vote: NO.

Here are two things to think about having new employees on a Defined Contributjon Plan:

1) Is top management switching to a Defined Contribution Pension Plan? If no, then why not? Our D.B.P. is the only benefit we have in common with upper management.

2) Over the course of years, newly hired employees on a D.C.P. will outnumber employees on a D.B.P. Therefore employees on a D.B.P. are at risk of losing their type of pension plan all together.

[bcflyer]

FYI:
I received this note from another union official at AC regarding the pilot's new TA. As it says, it is unofficial and it will be interesting to see shortly how accurate it is. It is also interesting to see the only aircraft where they are targeting pay is the 777 where the majority of the age 65 guys will be coming back on. Methinks another foolish move that will probably lead up to even further litigation down the road.

So now you are trying to twist an unofficial release by an unnamed union official into an attack on the FP60 crowd? Wow thats a new one....

[LisaS]

Where do I apply?

[777longhaul]

Lisa and others:

Apply anywhere you want. The job is so easy, that everyone is an expert, and they ALL have years of experience in all aspects of the profession, including complex negoiations, and pension issues.

If, you are not sure, where to apply, go to Tim Horton's, if that is beneath you, go to Starbuck's, and then if they dont have any applications, just stay on this forum, as the university, high school kids, other experts, are heading back for final exams, and or spring break is over, (they dont have time to post on this forum(s), so there should be lotsa room to sit down, and fill in the application, that you will be able to get from some expert on this forum, before they get to busy, to spend time reading and posting on the subject(s) that they all know so well.

Best of luck.

Let me know if this helps?

[invertedattitude]

Contract negotiations are fun.

[Les Lavoie]

600RVR wrote:

Its unfortunate that a few retired pilots had to spoil it for the rest of you.

Cheers
600RVR

I think maybe just maybe you have me taken out of context. When I say a few retired guys spoiled it for the rest I was refering to those couple of retirees who copied posts from the last forum to use against ACPA. So in other words its very unforunate that all who are retired got tarred with the same brush. If you were one of them who done this then yes I would have an issue with that, but I don't think you were (just to be clear). So hopefully I didn't ruin any goodwill because I think most readers know what I was refering too. I do wish you, because I use to read your post on the old forum, Doug Moore and a few other were still on it because now more than ever we could use your wisedom because you have been through negots many times. Hope this clears it up a little


Have a nice day
600RVR

p.s how did you know I was on a Island

Yes, I did not read you as your explanation states and, so, I did take you out of context, consequently, I do retract the implications of what I wrote. My apologies.

If you want us on your new forum, how about convincing those powers to let us in, as I applied but was, as Doug Moore and others, stonewalled and I will not hold my breath waiting. From what I read here about that forum, wisdom, logic, experience and a whole slew of other attributes are not welcome there

[yycflyguy]

From what I read here about that forum, wisdom, logic, experience and a whole slew of other attributes are not welcome there

Perhaps insulting your former colleagues is not the best way to gain admission?

[teacher]

For your reading pleasure........

Defined benefit pension plans on the wane

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1972987/

In my personal opinon it is crazy for employers to support retired employees after they've left the company. It may have made sense a long time ago but in today's economic reality? Top up and contribute while the employee is working but after? I don't agree with it IMHO of course.

[rudder]

You missed the most important part of the article:

However, Towers Watson said the survey showed one glimmer of hope for employee pension plans. Employers acknowledged that workers in Canada’s aging population will find defined benefit plans more valuable in the future. Companies considering changing their plan design to reduce risk said the potentially negative impact on employee attraction and retention is a “major concern.”

The survey found 59 per cent of employers believe workers will find defined benefit plans more valuable in the future, while only 9 per cent thought employees would find them less valuable and 32 per cent said their perceived value will not change.

[Doug Moore]

In my personal opinon it is crazy for employers to support retired employees after they've left the company. It may have made sense a long time ago but in today's economic reality? Top up and contribute while the employee is working but after? I don't agree with it IMHO of course.

The thing about “opinions”, teacher, is that everybody has one. I’m writing under the assumption that you’re a Worker Bee like most of us are; well, actually, I’m a Retired Worker Bee, but “it is crazy for employers to support retired employees” with a DB Pension Plan? Really? Well then, all the management people at AC must be really, really crazy. Take, for instance, the current CEO. He originally worked at AC from 2000 to 2004 before returning in 2009 and for that 4 or 5 years of dedicated service he walked away with an annual pension of $168,000. Read all about it here at page 50: http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/inves ... _proxy.pdf

As long as they are crazy enough to look after themselves in the manner they presently do, then I don’t think it unreasonable that they also look after a fellow employee who perhaps has given his entire working-life to the company – and not just 4 or 5 years, with a pension plan. Let’s just consider the pension a deferred bonus if you can’t get your head around deferred wage..

I honestly don’t understand your mind-set on the DB Plan, or your humble opinion for that matter; is it possible that you’re not really a Worker Bee, after all?

[777longhaul]

DITTO on that posting Doug.

Many posters on this AC section, offering their person point of view, (ppov) that really, have no actual experience with flying, or with flying for AC, or have any true objective knowledge of the pension issues, and/or TA agreements, etc. etc.

University and High School are back, after Spring Breaks, or reading breaks, or just some other name that allows posters to shoot from the hip, just to stir things up, that they know very little, if anything, about.

I have heard the current theme on the streets, J-F-S-U. (Means for no other reason, than: "Just f__k shit up."

Some of the posters here, are from that train of thought.

[teacher]

Doug, you are right, that is totally lunacy that those folks are taking in such a huge pension. I agree. What I'm saying is in today's world with new companies popping up and NOT offering a DB plan to new employees that automatically puts them at an advantage financially. I don't think it's good but what choice do you/we have? Fight for something that is on the way out? Continue to place our employers at a disadvantage? Top up my pension for 20 years AFTER I leave? Tell you what, give me a raise, match my contributions to a DC or RRSP and leave me to arrange my own retirement. Again, is it right? Is is more work? Is it more stable? Who knows, I sure don't but I wish is was my choice.

As for management pensions it's up to AC employees to stick up for themselves and say NO. If you want pension reductions we want YOU to take pension reductions. Simple as that. 2 words for ACPA members reading this, it's called a "strike vote". We did it at Jazz, 99% but sadly got threatened with back to work legislation and chose to not walk. We got a better deal though, would it have been better had we walked and taken our chances with binding arbitration? Again who knows.

[RussD]

Doug, you are right, that is totally lunacy that those folks are taking in such a huge pension. I agree. What I'm saying is in today's world with new companies popping up and NOT offering a DB plan to new employees that automatically puts them at an advantage financially. I don't think it's good but what choice do you/we have? Fight for something that is on the way out? Continue to place our employers at a disadvantage? Top up my pension for 20 years AFTER I leave? Tell you what, give me a raise, match my contributions to a DC or RRSP and leave me to arrange my own retirement. Again, is it right? Is is more work? Is it more stable? Who knows, I sure don't but I wish is was my choice.

As for management pensions it's up to AC employees to stick up for themselves and say NO. If you want pension reductions we want YOU to take pension reductions. Simple as that. 2 words for ACPA members reading this, it's called a "strike vote". We did it at Jazz, 99% but sadly got threatened with back to work legislation and chose to not walk. We got a better deal though, would it have been better had we walked and taken our chances with binding arbitration? Again who knows.

When the United pilots were forced to replace their DB plan with a DC plan the formula was an employer contribution 9.1% of income for every 1% of the the FAE income of the defunct DB plan. Therefor if their defunct plan paid 2% FAE per year of service and they had an income of 100,000 p/yr, the Company would pay 18.2% (or 18,200) per year into the DC plan.

DC plan with the appropriate Company funding would probably work for the majority, (especially younger members), but if the Company isn't offering to pony up the federal YMPE maximum then you all are getting phucked.

[yycflyguy]

My post from another thread.

If the rumour are true it is an easy vote.

LCC at reduced wages on the same aircraft:NO
DC pension for new hires:NO
No pension indexing:NO
No settlement of outstanding profit sharing and Scope grievances:NO
Aircraft grouping and limited career advancements:NO
Wage increase not equivalent to pre-CCAA plus inflation adjustment:NO
Influencing the shut down of a private forum:NO
Allowing SkyRegional to start in violation of current contract:NO
Using non ACPA pilots at SkyRegional:NO
Executive compensation tied to EBITDAR:NO

Feel free to add to my list of reasons but there are 10 solid reasons to vote this POS down.

Don't forget, executive compensations and bonuses will be announced later this month. Unbelievable.