Why Must We Call FSS (while IFR)

[Doc]

To get current weather.

Always handed to you by centre. Most times, without being asked. Along with RSC in season.

[just curious]

You just have to make them. You're old and crafty, you can do it. You just don't have the really mindless " We're 135.6 miles from nowhere at 210 and not going anywhere in particular..Conflicting kindly advise" ones that a certain Green Metro Operator loves so much.

[tca]

You just have to make them. You're old and crafty, you can do it. You just don't have the really mindless " We're 135.6 miles from nowhere at 210 and not going anywhere in particular..Conflicting kindly advise" ones that a certain Green Metro Operator loves so much.

Is that 135.6 gps miles or dme miles, and are you an ifr metro or a VFR metro? And what frequencies are you monitoring?
Honestly I don't think you could get very far in the company if you leave so many details out of your position reports!

[redline7921]

The problem is that information is sometimes not communicated like you think it should be and can become hazardous.

Lets take this example.

F-ABC - IFR flight plan for YYC departs 11 VFR
F-XXX - IFR inbound to YXJ on the ILS for 29

Aircraft ABC is on the ground in YXJ, has gotten the advisory and knows there is some IFR inbound (XXX) that is ABOUT 10min out but FSS has not been in contact with them yet. ABC will have to sit on the ground until XXX lands before they can get their IFR clearance. ABC asks for the VFR departure off RWY 11 for YYC, which is approved. ABC departs RWY 11 and switches to edmonton centre clear of the zone. They find out through centre that XXX is on the ILS for RWY 29 approx 7 miles from YXJ. So now you have an A/C who departed VFR for YYC, coincidentally a straight out departure and and IFR inbound on the ILS. ABC realizes the danger and immediately changes heading to the right and a few seconds later watches XXX pass of their left wing, same altitude by a few miles. XXX is pissed at ABC becasue they got a TCAS advisory and so it goes.

Lets not forget that even though we are IFR other VFR traffic does exist when VFR weather is present and it is both the IFR and VFR pilots who should be looking out and maintaining separation.

In this case if XXX called FSS 15min out with a plan, position, eta, it would have benefited all parties involved.

I always call 15min out with a position and eta at the very least and say we are still working with centre and will talk to them on the hand off.

[Maynard]

Speaking of FSS, how about those new SIDs in YXL !!

[I WAS Birddog]

You just have to make them. You're old and crafty, you can do it. You just don't have the really mindless " We're 135.6 miles from nowhere at 210 and not going anywhere in particular..Conflicting kindly advise" ones that a certain Green Metro Operator loves so much.

I tune that all out with my iPod. Unfortunately ATC calls get missed at times as well...but the Euro Techno dance tunes are awesome. Yes. That's right. I listen to dance tunes. It makes my work day seem more......fluffy. )

[FSS002]

The problem is that information is sometimes not communicated like you think it should be and can become hazardous.

Lets take this example.

F-ABC - IFR flight plan for YYC departs 11 VFR
F-XXX - IFR inbound to YXJ on the ILS for 29

Aircraft ABC is on the ground in YXJ, has gotten the advisory and knows there is some IFR inbound (XXX) that is ABOUT 10min out but FSS has not been in contact with them yet. ABC will have to sit on the ground until XXX lands before they can get their IFR clearance. ABC asks for the VFR departure off RWY 11 for YYC, which is approved. ABC departs RWY 11 and switches to edmonton centre clear of the zone. They find out through centre that XXX is on the ILS for RWY 29 approx 7 miles from YXJ. So now you have an A/C who departed VFR for YYC, coincidentally a straight out departure and and IFR inbound on the ILS. ABC realizes the danger and immediately changes heading to the right and a few seconds later watches XXX pass of their left wing, same altitude by a few miles. XXX is pissed at ABC becasue they got a TCAS advisory and so it goes.

Lets not forget that even though we are IFR other VFR traffic does exist when VFR weather is present and it is both the IFR and VFR pilots who should be looking out and maintaining separation.

In this case if XXX called FSS 15min out with a plan, position, eta, it would have benefited all parties involved.

I always call 15min out with a position and eta at the very least and say we are still working with centre and will talk to them on the hand off.

Excellent example. The main issue is at 15 minutes out FSS already know your coming with a fairly accurate estimate from centre (majority of time more accurate than the pilot's ETA) and you probably have not been given an approach so in the long run ABC will know no more if you call 15 minutes out then if your 10 minutes out or handed over by centre. Or at least from where I sit how I would have passed you as traffic to ABC would be no different.

[Shadowfax]

My thoughts tend to find the poor waiting aircraft on the ground vs. all the chatter we could avoid to be the lesser of two weevils. It's typical that a rule that makes sense for some, is rammed down everyone's throats.
The FSS's I deal with all have the radar, and are advised well in advance of an inbound's arrival. If you guys were allowed to "assign" runways, rather than let the pilots pick the one that suits "him" it would go a long way to smoothing everything out as well.
Cheers

We already have this ability (assigned runways) in Canada - it's called a TOWER. If it's that busy and opposite end departure/arrival is so onerous, then lobby for a Tower to be installed. Somehow they make it work - even without RADAR ???

['effin hippie]

Good Luck on that.

NavCanada is closing Towers, not to mention manned FSS's as much as they can.
I don't mean that they're necessarily the villain here, just that approaches to this hazard that require increased ground manning and infrastructure are not going to make the top of the list.

ef

[kevenv]

Good Luck on that.

NavCanada is closing Towers, not to mention manned FSS's as much as they can.

They have, in the past few years, opened towers in CYMM and CYFC. Where did they close towers during that same time?

[Hedley]

Sudbury tower closed recently IIRC. I guess it doesn't count? Didn't the Mirabel tower close, too? Those are just the ones near me. I'm sure there are plenty of other across the country.

[kevenv]

Sudbury tower closed recently IIRC. I guess it doesn't count? Didn't the Mirabel tower close, too? Those are just the ones near me. I'm sure there are plenty of other across the country.

Sure they count. That wasn't my question. Since CYMM tower opened in the fall of 08, followed by CYFC, what towers have been closed? IIRC, both the towers you mention closed earlier that year. But rather than get into a pi**ing match, can we agree that the comment "NavCanada is closing Towers, not to mention manned FSS's as much as they can" is just not accurate? If it was they would never have opened two new towers.

[Hedley]

Where did they close towers during that same time?

Whatever. You asserted that they didn't, which is obviously false. If you're going to try to represent mis-truths as the facts, you're going to have to work a little harder.

[kevenv]

Where did they close towers during that same time?

Whatever. You asserted that they didn't, which is obviously false. If you're going to try to represent mis-truths as the facts, you're going to have to work a little harder.

Seriously? That's your best answer? Did you read my post? I didn't assert any mis truths. I posted the following:

They have, in the past few years, opened towers in CYMM and CYFC. Where did they close towers during that same time?

Just in case you missed it, I asked where, during that time did they close towers? How is that asserting a mis-truth? Your examples happened before that time. Since the fall of 2008 what towers have closed?

Your posts are usually way more informative and relevant that "whatever"

Cheers

[Hedley]

Your skills are clearly wasted in NavCan management. Considering running for office as an MP? I can see you as a Cabinet Minister in a Liberal government.

[kevenv]

Your skills are clearly wasted in NavCan management. Considering running for office as an MP? I can see you as a Cabinet Minister in a Liberal government.

Your aversion to answering questions with facts would seem to indicate we would be running mates

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned yrt - likely one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in canada. One saving grace it's in uncontrolled airspace - I can't imagine what it would be like if it was controlled.

My pet peeve is the fact that the fss specialists and this goes for a lot of other stations as well seem to think they are atc and get so involved that they actually tie up and even block the frequency. I understand it's their sop but the system is very inefficient - how to piss off the fss guy-talk air to air - if I hear the phrase break-break again -aaaaaarrgggggggh

don't get me wrong the fss guys do a great job I just wish they had all the tools made available even in the remotest sites and that some pilots would step away from their type "A" personalities and stop making it a competition and cutting corners just to beat the other guy.

[W0XOF]

"Liquid Charlie"]I'm surprised no one has mentioned yrt - likely one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in canada. One saving grace it's in uncontrolled airspace - I can't imagine what it would be like if it was controlled.

My pet peeve is the fact that the fss specialists and this goes for a lot of other stations as well seem to think they are atc and get so involved that they actually tie up and even block the frequency. I understand it's their sop but the system is very inefficient - how to piss off the fss guy-talk air to air - if I hear the phrase break-break again -aaaaaarrgggggggh

don't get me wrong the fss guys do a great job I just wish they had all the tools made available even in the remotest sites and that some pilots would step away from their type "A" personalities and stop making it a competition and cutting corners just to beat the other guy.

You consider 14k movements a year as being busy? That's not even busy in the FSS world. There were 40 FSS busier than YRT in 2009 where it was ranked #41 in overall movements. Oh btw, directing all communications to the ground station is in CAR's.

@Hedley "Those are just the ones near me. I'm sure there are plenty of other across the country." Talk about a misleading statement. YSB and YMX are the only 2, but they swapped services with the 2 FSS that have closed,YMM and YFC. Net effect nil.

[Doc]

Oh btw, directing all communications to the ground station is in CAR's.

And herein lies a major safety concern. Of Mine. Having the local FSS guy, translate English into English, ties up the frequency to the point where a "potentially" air to air transmission between two conflicting aircraft could prevent a catastrophe (read mid-air) from happening. I've been in more than a few situations where I needed to talk to a specific aircraft "right NOW", only to be walked on by the FSS guy asking the other aircraft if he "copies" my trans mission. No disrespect intended here, but sometimes, FSS should but out and let us sort it out. We are the only ones who know where we are right now. Do the math.
There is way too much "controlling" going on, when it should be just advisories.

[pilotidentity]

Single pilot IFR I monitor the MF then call about 10 minutes out when I can - now I don't have to worry about the FSS freq being tied up when I am busy closer in and leave Centre to make the call. Of course I always get told to call 15 miles back for traffic, but I've covered my ass and don't have to worry about busting the 5 minute reg.

[square]

LOL, let's be honest here guys, it's pretty easy to forget to call the FSS especially if you're used to flying in controlled airspace. And it sucks that you've got to worry about getting written up for it. But it's not a pointless call, it confirms the ETA's and updates everyone's traffic picture, gives you an altimeter and an idea of what to expect. I bet if they abolished the rule we'd all still do it out of airmanship, but ONLY when we remember to!

[Disco Stu]

Make enough rules, nobody gets hurt? BS

If you guys were allowed to "assign" runways, rather than let the pilots pick the one that suits "him" it would go a long way to smoothing everything out as well.

Ummmmm.......

[wingandaprayer]

Speaking as an FSS at a non-radar site with 2 busy non-radar RAAS, those 15 minute heads up calls are actually really helpfull. The estimates we get are not necessarily accurate, especially the CAATS ones. So it gives us a better idea when you're actually going to be here. Centre doesn't always let us know what you're planning to do, so giving us the heads up which approach you're planning helps us in our planning. This is particularly important in the winter when we have snow removal going on. Those vehicles don't move that fast. It gives us a chance to make sure you have information that Centre doesn't necessarily have, like RSCs, PIREPS and NOTAMS and such. That way we don't have to go bugging you with it if you get handed over late (which happens often enough, particularly if it's busy).

My two cents
W&P

[Liquid Charlie]

There were 40 FSS busier than YRT in 2009 where it was ranked #41 in overall movements

Statistics do not always give you the real story -- first -- where does it stand in the ratings for stations in uncontrolled airspace.

The other issue is that 90% of movements happen over a 3 hour period - there was a notam issued at one time restricting sked aircraft only during certain hours - the ironic thing of a station in uncontrolled airspace is that there is no flow control for IFR arrivals and departures - with ATC issuing approach and departure clearances controls the work load of the FFS guy big time -- nothing more interesting to have 5 aircraft all uncontrolled and heading for the same fix - so yes there are far busier stations but any station in uncontrolled air space has a lot of issues statistics don't identify.

[W0XOF]

There were 40 FSS busier than YRT in 2009 where it was ranked #41 in overall movements

Statistics do not always give you the real story -- first -- where does it stand in the ratings for stations in uncontrolled airspace.

The other issue is that 90% of movements happen over a 3 hour period - there was a notam issued at one time restricting sked aircraft only during certain hours - the ironic thing of a station in uncontrolled airspace is that there is no flow control for IFR arrivals and departures - with ATC issuing approach and departure clearances controls the work load of the FFS guy big time -- nothing more interesting to have 5 aircraft all uncontrolled and heading for the same fix - so yes there are far busier stations but any station in uncontrolled air space has a lot of issues statistics don't identify.

You bring up some good points, in theory though. Your use of the term "flow control" isn't correct, but I understand were you are coming from. But, take a site that does 3 times the amount of movements, a VFR day, everyone canceling inbound with clearances outbound and vfr departures. Easily can be the 5 aircraft you mention. Not to mention the other 5 GA aircraft inbound/outbound/circuits. Maybe some skydivers thrown in also. This is just a moderate summer daily scenario.

Same effect, but way more traffic for longer periods. Take 2 months during fire season with 300-500 movements a day. No comparison.