The age issue:

[Cat Driver]

Have been doing some soul searching recently and am wondering what the general pilot group thinks about flying and the age issue.

I retired from flying for a living at age 70, not because I was at all concerned about my ability to fly and make proper decisions it was because I wanted to share more time with my wife and do all the things my career denied her.

It was the best decision I ever made as I can not even imagine how I would have dealt with her situation had I still been flying outside of Canada.

Now I have decided to go back to work and re enter the helicopter flying side of aviation and get retrained to a safe level before doing any serious helicopter flying.

Reading all the back and forth bickering in the airline group about flying after the age of sixty got me to thinking about this subject.

Personally I feel ability is determined by ones health and mental attitude, not by any age limit.

Thoughts?

[KK7]

My thoughts are that this topic is being beat to death from about a thousand different angles, and am wondering what you expect to get out of this thread that you didn't get out of the several others you were heavily involved in?

Seriously, if you are competent and healthy, and frankly you have the law on your side with regards to being allowed to fly at your age, what is the problem? Get out there and have fun already!!!

[Cat Driver]

My thoughts are that this topic is being beat to death from about a thousand different angles, and am wondering what you expect to get out of this thread that you didn't get out of the several others you were heavily involved in?

Now you have me wondering if getting involved in any discussion on this forum is maybe a poor use of my time?

Is this just one of a long list of subjects that are just too beaten to death to bother with?

[Sulako]

In Canada, more than 1,300 ATPL pilots are older than 60. My take is that if a person can hold a class 1 medical and they are comfortable flying, they should be able to fly. If an aging pilot can pass an IFR, he/she should be able to fly IFR. It's true that as a pilot ages, his/her reflexes will get slower but the studies show that it's offset by increased experience level.

In fact, flight experience seems to trump age up to around 10,000 hours tt and around 70, but the thing is - that doesn't apply to everyone. The data that I have read seems to say that aging affects different pilots differently and I'm thinking it might be a good idea to put a system in place that deals with it on a case-by-case basis.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/jsp_incl ... %20REALITY

"A recent study by the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Stanford University School of Medicine examined this same issue, though using flight simulator performance instead of accident records. The study, published in Neurology, a periodical of the American Academy of Neurology, examined the performance of 118 general aviation pilots aged 40 to 69, in which their flight performance was scored in terms of (1) executing air-traffic controller communications, (2) traffic avoidance, (3) instrument scan, (4) executing an approach to landing and (5) a flight summary score over a three-year period. The study's authors concluded there is an advantageous effect of prior experience and specialized expertise on older pilots' performance."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ates-aging

"For the baseline scores, it works kind of like a trade-off: the older the age, the lower the performance," says Joy Taylor, study co-author and researcher with the Stanford University/VA Palo Alto Health Care System's Aging Clinical Research Center. "But if you look at the additive factor of expertise, the higher the expertise, then the performance goes up."

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/157/10/874.full

"Flight experience, as measured by total flight time at baseline, showed a significant protective effect against the risk of crash involvement. With adjustment for age, pilots who had 5,000–9,999 hours of total flight time at baseline had a 57% lower risk of a crash than their less experienced counterparts (relative risk = 0.43, 95% confidence interval: 0.21, 0.87). The protective effect of flight experience leveled off after total flight time reached 10,000 hours. The lack of an association between pilot age and crash risk may reflect a strong “healthy worker effect” stemming from the rigorous medical standards and periodic physical examinations required for professional pilots. "


http://aeromedical.org/Articles/age60.html

"Most importantly, decades of actual flight performance data, the measure of greatest significance to public safety, show that for every age group, older pilots are as safe as younger."

[Beefitarian]

Now you have me wondering if getting involved in any discussion on this forum is maybe a poor use of my time?

A little bit but we all need to talk to someone. I don't know anyone in real life I can to talk about aviation with so this place has been positive for me a few times.

If you can pass a medical and a check ride what difference does age make?

[Cat Driver]

Thanks Sulako, that was exactly the type of information and discussion I was looking for.

On a personal level I let my ATPL medical expire on November first 2010 as I not only had no need for it but was in no shape emotionally to even think of flying anything.

Last month I finally recovered on an emotional level to the point that I wanted to ensure I was still healthy physically and after a very thorough medical with all the lab tests done the results were my health is excellent with no negative results from the tests.........

.....soooo now I am slowly resetting my emotional clock to start life all over again including going back to flying.

My new retirement date is when I am 80...maybe...

[Cat Driver]

A little bit but we all need to talk to someone. I don't know anyone in real life I can to talk about aviation with so this place has been positive for me a few times

Exactly.

We all need to be part of something, without reaching out to others we will be nothing.

[Beefitarian]

You seem like a great guy .. Quit worrying about imaginary internet bogeymen and young guys trying to bring you down. What kind of helicopters are you going to fly and what's the role?

[xsbank]

A couple of my friends were denied certification and visas to fly in China because they were over 55 - they were told they "might" be certified up to age 60, but if older than 60, fuggedaboudit. Now I think it is common knowledge that age discrimination is common in China, if not in more Asian countries, so nobody on here should get their shirts in a knot, but the silly thing was both these guys just passed FAA/EASA check rides and are both Check Airmen, so the Chinese nitwits shot themselves in the foot as they missed out on the best we had to offer and we were sending guys to help them out - they had requested same.

I agree that if you can still do the job you should just do it. In fact, I get very annoyed whenever the CBC says "the accident was caused by a 76 year old..." when the age-thing is irrelevant. I also think if we are to test drivers past a certain age, we should be testing all drivers of all ages because we are much more civilized than the other country mentioned and we DO NOT DISCRIMINATE DUE TO AGE, DO WE?

The stupid thing is that many high-tech firms are facing massive retirements as the baby-boomers shuffle off into the sunset and many firms are crafting plans to try and get the workers to return on contracts or work half-time because they stand to lose too much expertise all at once. Air Canada wants to boot the seniors 'coz they can get cheaper guys to do the same jobs with smaller pensions. Then they can pay their CEO his 4.5 Million.

ps. This site will be a pretty boring place when all the eccentrics are booted out. I'm not talking about the morons or members-without-foreheads but the interesting ones who could p*ss off the multitudes with a couple of well-aimed shots. Eventually it will be as boring as the stuff the Bloc publishes and people will stop coming in to look. Part of the attraction was the crack-pots...

p.p.s. Don't patronize . - he's forgotten more about flying than the vast majority of us here can scrape together.

[Cat Driver]

Quit worrying about imaginary internet bogeymen and young guys trying to bring you down.

Don't worry beef, I may be guilty of many shortcomings, but insecurity is not one of them.

What kind of helicopters are you going to fly and what's the role?

Bell 206, privately owned company, hopefully it will all come together soon.

[N2]

Cat I really hope you don't retire until at least 90!
The most of the enjoyable flying I have done has been with "older pilots"
Age is no barrier!

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Age and competence seldom go hand in hand (my opinion) . But I would place my wager on you being competent. I would advise to stay in and do it until breath flees from chest (My ultimate goal)

[Cougar]

It's the pilot -- not the age.

I worked with one guy who was just awesome at 78 -- they finally wouldn't insure him so he "retired" and had to drink his scotch and smoke his cigars at home on his tractor, instead of out behind the tanker base.

And another, I get to see again tomorrow as we go back to training -- and he's in a class by himself, I know people say that, but in this case, it really IS true. He's 75 or 76 now, and I wish to hell I knew 1% of what he has forgotten over the years. I know I never will, but that doesn't stop me from trying.

Guys like that have made aviation truly special for me, and I'm just damned lucky I got to know them.

[Cat Driver]

Avcanada helps me cope with being alone now, sometimes it is truly overpowering.

Coming here helps me in a big way...so thanks to all of you.

.:

[Adam Oke]

When I first learned how to fly tow planes at the local gliding club, I had the pleasure of being introduced to that type of flying by a soft spoken, pommy accent, 85 year old man with the softest yet most accurate hands on the controls. He was originally from the UK and an ex WWII Royal Air Force Vet who was recently recognized as one of Canada's top documentary filmmakers. I tell this short story to many many people. I flew with him when I had a mere couple hundred hours, and to this day I have yet to meet anyone that was so in-tune with an aircraft.

Age is nothing in my books. If anything, flying skill goes hand in hand in comparison to a fine whiskey.

[toelessjoe]

. if it helps any I'm 39, just about as smart as this table and have been known to run decisions in the cockpit by a chunk of 2x2 dubbed "Wilson" for approval. (Wilson once got a cojo to yell at him - swear to God).


It ain't yer age, it's finding your own personal level of schizophrenia that you (and those tiny voices in your head) can live with.


- Toeless.

[bmc]

.

So nice to read such positive spirit in you these days. There are a lot of people that care about you and the community on Avcanada shares that sentiment.

A truly inspiring moment for me came about ten years ago when I went to Pemberton to try soaring for the first time. The tow pilot was 70. He too, had lost his wife and wanted to get back into flying. He was retired RAF with only a civy PPL, so he towed for free. I thought that having him tow was a pretty cool thing. But the story didn't end there.

After landing, an elderly lady came over to the Blanik and started preflighting. She was going to take her husband up for a flight. I apologised in advance, but had to ask her age. She was 74. She told me she started flying at 50.

So, there we watched a 70 year old tow pilot pull a 74 year old woman and her husband up to enjoy what we all enjoy. It had to be one of the most inspiring things I'd seen.

You have a role to play here for us on the forum. Your wealth and depth of knowledge is so impressive, and we learn from it.

As Churchill said, ""Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, give up. Never give up. Never give up. Never give up."

[righthandman]

If you have the chance to get back into it (doing something you love) and the desire to do so, I would definitely go for it. My guess is you will likely extend your lifespan by doing so.

Who cares what others think in terms of whether you should be flying (regardless of whether it's an age "issue" or anything else)? If you are legal (pass all the tests) and comfortable with it then go for it.

I personally saw Bob Hoover's airshow demonstration at an age where some would consider him "over the hill" and I only wish I could fly nearly as well with my 7000+ hours.

[KK7]

My thoughts are that this topic is being beat to death from about a thousand different angles, and am wondering what you expect to get out of this thread that you didn't get out of the several others you were heavily involved in?

Now you have me wondering if getting involved in any discussion on this forum is maybe a poor use of my time?

Is this just one of a long list of subjects that are just too beaten to death to bother with?

That wasn't my point. I can appreciate the fact that you're here for the same reason as most of us, it's a place where people with common interests and a willing to discuss just about anything come to keep each other company.

But you seem to be worried about what people think about you flying at your age, and I'm trying to put it out there that you should quit worrying and just get out there already! Flying is something you obviously love to do, you are quite competent at it (probably an understatement), and you are healthy. We can all sit around and talk about it again and again, but ultimately, I'm saying just do it already!!!

[Old Dog Flying]

....follow your heart! If you want to fly, do it! At 75+ I'm flying for pleasure in the "Alley Cat" with my lovely Better Half and in spite of the aches and pains of getting in and out of the little beast (plane) i still enjoy it (flying). ( ) used for clarity knowing your evil little mind

The biggest hurdle for you will be the insurance companies...they for the most part, will not insure anyone over 70...no matter what your experience level.

May you always have the wind at your back under blue skies
Barney

[Cat Driver]

The biggest hurdle for you will be the insurance companies...they for the most part, will not insure anyone over 70...no matter what your experience level.

It is my understanding that you can get insurance over 70 if you take a check ride with an instructor approved by the insurance company and meet the standards for the license you hold.

Anyone here know if this is no longer true?

[Aviatard]

Who do you want in the left (or right) seat?






Yeah, me too.

[Shiny Side Up]

The biggest hurdle for you will be the insurance companies...they for the most part, will not insure anyone over 70...no matter what your experience level.

It is my understanding that you can get insurance over 70 if you take a check ride with an instructor approved by the insurance company and meet the standards for the license you hold.

Anyone here know if this is no longer true?

Its still true, I still do those rides for a bunch of fellows in that age range.

Not sure why you're worried about the age issue. You should have met my Grandfathers, both of who have stayed active working into their eighties, much to the chagrin of my Grandmothers.

[oldtimer]

., I also retired at age 70 and so far, I have no regrets. I retired, not because I had to but because I wanted to. Now, after 9 months, I also have to find something to do. But I have not completely discounted getting back into aviation.
I just have to find something to do with my time.
My only regret was that I always said that when I hang up the old headset for good, I just wanted to jump into a J3 Cub and see how many air regs I could break in one day, but alas, I never did. I am a coward at heart.

[KK7]

Who do you want in the left (or right) seat?

Considering the first image appears to be a flight attendant, certainly not him!