He's right

[R2000/1830]

bluesky wrote this and I think he is right.


"Pilots come a dime a dozen" You better believe it! That's why we get paid next to nothing!!

Man that's the industry's problem right there! [b]There are too many people, some yahoos that don't really care, don't try and just want to spend ma and pas $$, getting into the industry. [/b]
I mean seriously folks this is why we as pilots are hurting so much. Anyone ever hear of supply and demand? There are too many pilots being trained right now.

I think that the flight schools should be limited in their number of students per year. Let's cut back on just passing out wings at the street corner for a buck and put pride, hard work and success back into the dream of becoming a pilot.

My two cents worth, I felt like ranting today.

[ScudRunner]

I know he's just trolling But

I think that the flight schools should be limited in their number of students per year

Nice Idea, maybe we should just be able to fly ever other year depending on what year you were born.

can you imagin yourself back in the day wondering into the local flight school " um Id like to be a pilot there ace" CFI response " sorry son I dont want to run a business the goverment will just bail me out or better yet make me a crown corporation and unionize all of us so i dont have to do anything, quit bothering me right now son, I need to head down to the local Communist Party ra...... I mean NDP rally"

Viva la revolution

[bee tee]

Flight training is a huge chunk of the Canadian aviation industry. Too many people involved to close the doors.

Do you even need a high school diploma to get the ATPL?

Unfortunately for the student pilot, once the training begins, they're hooked.

[scotothedoublet]

I think R2000 has a good point. Currently there is no real barrier to entry into the job market. I think historically the expense of commercial pilot training has acted as a barrier, but now (last 20 yrs) grants, bursaries and loans have made it more accessible. Accessibility is fair, but floods the labour market with debt ridden job-seekers. What makes the pilot labour market worse is that low-time pilots generally need to instruct in order to become employable. So in order to get a job you create a handful of unemployed pilots...we're a plague.

[Wasn't Me]

Currently there is no real barrier to entry into the job mark

.

Don't you guys think that the barrier occurs when the employer picks who he want.

[TopperHarley]

I think that the flight schools should be limited in their number of students per year. Let's cut back on just passing out wings at the street corner for a buck and put pride, hard work and success back into the dream of becoming a pilot.

I think a more efficient way to control the supply of pilots is to raise the standards for the CPL. This will also produce better pilots, IMO. Just look at how Universities/Colleges control the number of students they accept... when demand gets huge (i.e. double cohort), they raise the bar (increase the required GPA, increase the requirements for extra-curriculars, etc).

[Tree]

Yes...but then only the book smart people would be pilots. I think some other sort of apptitude test should be required to ensure that the best candidates are trained.

Or we could just leave things as is and let nature take its course.

[desksgo]

Yes...but then only the book smart people would be pilots.
.

God forbid, pilots who could read and write .

I don't think that making the commercial pilot certificate harder will only produce booksmart pilots. You can only read "From the ground up" so many times. I think he was talking about making the flight curriculum more difficult. I'm all for that.

[Right Seat Captain]

I think a more efficient way to control the supply of pilots is to raise the standards for the CPL.

This was done as of April 1st 2005. The Commercial Licence Flight Test Standards were changed. A few new items were introduced, a few items were clarified, and overall the standard was raised.

Yes...but then only the book smart people would be pilots. I think some other sort of apptitude test should be required to ensure that the best candidates are trained.

Actually there is another sort of aptitude test currently being used: a flight test. The new standards are supposed to be getting away froma commercial that is simply a glorified private licence.

[TopperHarley]

Desksgo is right with my post. Not only do the written test standards need to be raised, but also the flight test itself. That takes care of both "book smarts" and aptitude. I'm not saying we need to have a system like in the UK where they write 15 or so exams for the ATP (although more than 1 exam would not be a bad idea), but the current exam for the CPL is somewhat of a joke IMO. It would be impossible to turn all current commercial pilots into Macgyver-like people, but if there really is a problem with the supply of pilots, something should be done.

[Jaques Strappe]

If anything needs changing it is the ATPL standard.

How anyone can hold such a licence having flown nothing larger than a buck 50 while venturing no furthur than the practice area in cavu weather is beyond common sense.

[desksgo]

Also, an excellent suggestion, Jacques.

I'm reading a lot of good things here. And that is part of the problem, from what I see. Allow me to explain...

Most of you are pilots, some well established, some mid-career, some beginning down the road. You're underpaid, underappreciated for the work you currently do, and your ideas go very much unrealised throughout the industry (ok..most of you).

Now, instead of pushing 250 Seneca grads, 200 Sioux grads and 1000's of other graduates through the tiny convergent opening of pilot employment, they should be encouraged to pursue other facets in aviation. Either through continued education, entry-level jobs that can lead to management, anything to build positive aviation experience...etc. Basically anything that will lead people with AVIATION experience to positions where they can affect change. A flight education / background should be marketed as an excellent ticket to learn about the aviation industry...not just some map to the golden egg of airline employment.

It makes me sick to see so many good, often bright, people spend what's left of their 20's chasing some number in their logbook, only to get some 20k paycheque to live in Toofless, AB, at the end of it all.

I'd be interested to know how many people without any true understanding of the aviation industry work in our field and get paid much more than the people who actually move the product (pilots). I think the numbers would be staggering.

A pilot is someone who likes to fly and/or gets paid to do it.
An Aviator is someone who is passionate for the aviation industry, and wishes to contribute something to his/her field. The industry is short on aviators, and our pilot schools sure aren't turning any of those out.

[DHQ]

Totally agree with Jacques Strappe. Not every joker with an instructor rating and a couple years of teaching deserves an ATPL.

I'm not sure smaller tolerances on the CPL flight test is a good answer. Somehow it seems that would get people more focused on the numbers inside, than looking outside and flying the airplane.

Can't hurt to have to learn more for the written exam though.

[Jaques Strappe]

Deskgo

To add if I may, this may not be just limited to aviation in Canada. I just read an article recently in the Globe and Mail which stated that 10% of Canada's'income earners are paying 90% of the tax bill. It went on to say that anyone earning 65K or more, per year in this country is considered to be rich!

Can you believe that? So in actual fact, many pilots are considered to be rich in this country!

[bizjet_mania]

There is a surplus of pilots...its all supply and demand. We have too many. Then again 2/3s of our pilots left Canada to fly overseas. Less people are getting into aviation because its getting too expensive and there is little or no job prospect. All the high time guys are sitting on the low end jobs.

However..... in the next 10 years 65% of the worlds airline pilots will be retiring, so now is the perfect time to do your training. Then again if the industry goes into recession which it probably will itll be really hard to get a job anyways.

Heres a fact... 2% of the pilots in Canada make over $100,000

[desksgo]

However..... in the next 10 years 65% of the worlds airline pilots will be retiring, so now is the perfect time to do your training. Then again if the industry goes into recession which it probably will itll be really hard to get a job anyways.

If you like numbers...try doing the statistic for how many airlines will go bankrupt from offering 50 dollar seats and dealing with high fuel prices in the next 10 years. I think you'll find a lovely balance between the 65% pilot shortage figure.

[bizjet_mania]

If you like numbers...try doing the statistic for how many airlines will go bankrupt from offering 50 dollar seats and dealing with high fuel prices in the next 10 years. I think you'll find a lovely balance between the 65% pilot shortage figure.

You are absolutely correct. This low fare crap is ruining the industry. They want to make air travel more affordable to the general public... well heres news for them.... aviation is expensive!!!!! its expensive to train, its expensive to buy airplanes, buy parts and its expensive to fly! No glory in aviation these days. Its all who can offer the lowest price. I forsee the industry crashing and the first to go is the low fare carriers. In 15 years 17 airlines in Canada have come and gone, the only one left standing was Air Canada. Should tell you something. I even had a WestJet captain, who I know and he loves WestJet, tell me WestJet probably won't be around in 10 years, unless they cut the low fare crap out.

[greenwich]

Yeah, it totally amazed me how truly easy it was to get all my licences here in Canada (and believe me, if I can anyone can!).

I grew up overseas, and in Europe (for example) it's somewhat impossible to get your licences! You actually need an education...Physics...Math...Sciences...etc., and all this before you even set-foot in a plane!! And the cost....wow!

You guys are right...that it has a lot to do with 'supply and demand'. An over-supply of pilots with a relatively fixed demand for pilots does result in the way that we are all treated by our industry (i.e. 'dime a dozen'!)

BUT, there is a second part to the equation that I believe has an even greater effect:

There are way to many avaiation companies in Canada! And this is the real problem. As more and more companies enter the market place, they compete with each other by lowering prices (lower fares, lower dollars per mile, etc.). This has a snowball-effect and to compete, everyone starts dropping their prices. (eg. JetsGo!!!!)

Over time fixed-costs have been going up (fuel costs, NavCan costs, landing fees, maintenance costs, etc.) but through over-competition revenues have been going down! Lower revenues combined with higher expenses result in aviation companies making minimal profit.

So where can aviation companies save money and increase the profit-margins? Fixed costs are fixed, so you can only adjust your variable costs...i.e. salaries, working conditions, aircraft quelity, etc.

So here we are...

G

[costermonger]

Its all who can offer the lowest price. I forsee the industry crashing and the first to go is the low fare carriers. In 15 years 17 airlines in Canada have come and gone, the only one left standing was Air Canada.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Everybody acknowledges that the carrier with the lowest prices will sell the tickets, the question is whether or not they can afford to operate with their income from the ticket. In this respect, the successful North American low-cost airlines are taking the old school carriers to task, as they can offer cheaper tickets and still actually make money. Sure, if the industry goes into recession there are a lot of low fare airlines that would cease to exist, but believe me, there aren't many traditional carriers that could survive yet another hit to their bottomline.

As for the 17 airlines in 15 years.. How many times in that 15 years has Air Canada either bought one of those other carriers or almost gone out of business itself? Air Canada's continued existence has absolutely nothing to do with it's ability to actually operate at a profit, simply it's status as the country's flag carrier.

Let's not go blaming the state of the industry on airlines that actually have a successful and sound business model.

[bizjet_mania]

Aviation these days is more like a hobby because unless you are in an airline or flying corporate, you have noway of supporting yourself much less a family... especially if you live in a big city.

[desksgo]

Let's not go blaming the state of the industry on airlines that actually have a successful and sound business model.

I'd like a list of 10 airlines with a successful and sound business model on my desk by 5 o'clock or you're fired.

And remember a successful and sound business model means it passed a 5 year proving period. So let's have it.

[costermonger]

I can think of three or four.. That's about it.

[bizjet_mania]

But thats what I am talking about Air Canada will never go tits up! They are the flag carrier they will never leave. Airlines like Jetsgo, CanJet and WestJet have limited lives. As profitable as they are, one big hiccup in the industry could bring them down quickly. And I can't think of 5 airlines in Canada because we only have 3 that can even cross the pond and only one of those is scheduled.

[costermonger]

Well, Southwest, AirTran and Westjet are the only three that aren't easy to shoot holes in.. Ryanair and some of the other European low-fare airlines may have been around for over 5 years now but I'm not familiar enough with their operations to know if the success is anything more than on paper.

If they can sell cheaper tickets and operate safely while still making money, they're not hurting the industry.. But the flash in the pan $5 dollar ticket airlines aren't helping us.

[desksgo]

Well, Southwest, AirTran and Westjet are the only three that aren't easy to shoot holes in.. Ryanair and some of the other European low-fare airlines may have been around for over 5 years now but I'm not familiar enough with their operations to know if the success is anything more than on paper.

Are southwest and airtran currently in black ink? I don't think you are familiar with anyone's operations.