In my memory Quebecois girls were certainly more charming than their Anglo Canadian counterparts...
I was in Montreal when the rights of English speaking Canadians (from Britain, Greece, Italy, Spain and many many other countries), were taken away. (I went to Vanier CEGEP!).
Under British law that would not have been legal. Indeed English law gave the Quebecois the freedom to keep their language inspite of their previous allegiance to the enemy France. I doubt that the Americans would have given them the same.
But this is well off topic... Situation normal I suppose.
Like Universities with Political Science departments I think the Puppy Mills need to continue to survive, but they need to be honest and ethical in their businesses.
They all need to put their prices up. What is offered is offered too cheap and this attracts lower standards.
Stop The Puppy Mills!
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Last edited by MichaelP on Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Well, back to the topic Micheal.
The problem Canada faces, is the US flight schools. The big ones, are in areas with perfect year round weather, large populations for students, and thus the ability to compete at a much lower price when it comes to commerical pilot training. In the UK, for example, years ago, instuctors got paid very well, and the cost of training was astronomical due to high taxes etc. The result was the US folks pretty much wiped out the UK commercial training industry.
So where does that leave Canada? Well so far, many of the colleges, which I believe we are referring to with the canine references are heavily subsidized (not all of them). The result is they are using our tax dollars to subsidize competition. Sad but true. And once you start an organization they only get bigger, hungrier for more money, and evangalistic on why they should continue on their mission. The result, of course, is each province wants a school to turn out pilots for their province..Then each college wants to get on the taxpayer funded gravey train...And then private flight schools want to join up with solleges..It just continually expands , and as it is bascially all taxpayer subsidized, it will continue for awhile yet, I am afraid. I was always amazed years ago, when meeting were called at some of these colleges...10 or so people showing up for two hours to discuss something that cost aabout 1/4 or the cost of their salaries for two hours..But it came from a different budget area...Qiote amazing. No privately funded FTU, even if they had that many staff, could afford to have them sitting around in a walnut decorated board room disucssing some insignificatnt topics. Thats what the bar is for.
Is change possible? Yes. It would come around quite quickly if our various governments recognized that we are producing alot more pilots than required and cut off funding.. Would happen quickly.
But dont expect it...Those puppy mill folks understand that sucking up to the government to get their hands into the taxpayers pocket is as important as actually teaching flying.
Write your MP and MLA and demand they stop wasting taxpayer money on training people who will ultimately not join the workforce as there is not enough work for them.
The problem Canada faces, is the US flight schools. The big ones, are in areas with perfect year round weather, large populations for students, and thus the ability to compete at a much lower price when it comes to commerical pilot training. In the UK, for example, years ago, instuctors got paid very well, and the cost of training was astronomical due to high taxes etc. The result was the US folks pretty much wiped out the UK commercial training industry.
So where does that leave Canada? Well so far, many of the colleges, which I believe we are referring to with the canine references are heavily subsidized (not all of them). The result is they are using our tax dollars to subsidize competition. Sad but true. And once you start an organization they only get bigger, hungrier for more money, and evangalistic on why they should continue on their mission. The result, of course, is each province wants a school to turn out pilots for their province..Then each college wants to get on the taxpayer funded gravey train...And then private flight schools want to join up with solleges..It just continually expands , and as it is bascially all taxpayer subsidized, it will continue for awhile yet, I am afraid. I was always amazed years ago, when meeting were called at some of these colleges...10 or so people showing up for two hours to discuss something that cost aabout 1/4 or the cost of their salaries for two hours..But it came from a different budget area...Qiote amazing. No privately funded FTU, even if they had that many staff, could afford to have them sitting around in a walnut decorated board room disucssing some insignificatnt topics. Thats what the bar is for.
Is change possible? Yes. It would come around quite quickly if our various governments recognized that we are producing alot more pilots than required and cut off funding.. Would happen quickly.
But dont expect it...Those puppy mill folks understand that sucking up to the government to get their hands into the taxpayers pocket is as important as actually teaching flying.
Write your MP and MLA and demand they stop wasting taxpayer money on training people who will ultimately not join the workforce as there is not enough work for them.
Accident speculation:
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Not to be picky but French-Canadiens never held any alliegence to Napoleon. Being a Brit you should be ashamed for not being able to quote the fights historical...MichaelP wrote: Under British law that would not have been legal. Indeed English law gave the Quebecois the freedom to keep their language inspite of their previous allegiance to Napolean. I doubt that the Americans would have given them the same.
But this is well off topic... Situation normal I suppose.
Most do post prices, but I know what you're getting at. Often many gloss over a lot of the costs incurred. The big thing I see a lot of schools posting is the bare minimum course requirements and often don't include what's necessary time building wise. The old bait and switch.They all need to put their prices up. What is offered is offered too cheap and this attracts lower standards.
And that's only going to happen when a louder voice speaks up against it, or wants some change. There is no impetus from change from the largely ignorant student customer base nor from the schools themselves. The schools are either happy to play along and any attempt at change or improvement is not rewarded, only penalized. The rest of the industry needs to speak up.Is change possible? Yes. It would come around quite quickly if our various governments recognized that we are producing alot more pilots than required and cut off funding.. Would happen quickly.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
As I alluded to, the Universities offer more than enough useless degree courses needed to overshadow our piddling little aviation business.
In the apartment building where I live I met a pilot who'd gone through the BCIT aviation program, spent twice as much as any CPL self starter would for the licence, and who earned more in his previous job as a mailman (USA Eng') than I do now with all of my experience.
He went off on a road trip to find a job with his little over 200 hours...
Do college programs produce better pilots with more likelihood of being hired by the airlines?
Maybe, maybe not, but certainly they can charge a proper amount for the training given.
You may think college programs rip the students off by charging them more and perhaps they are getting government subsidies as well, (more money coming in
), but look at it another way and the flying schools are ripping themselves off by trying to compete with the Americans who have lower cost, higher utilisation schools.
I'm all for schools charging a rate that keeps them from going bankrupt (as too many do here in Canada), while giving quality training by offering quality people, premises, and aircraft.
As for Britain. Agreed!
We lost nearly all of our training to the USA... Cheap cheap... But this has led to a lower standard of flying there as well.
I had to deal with this... Bright eyed three week minted PPLs coming to rent aeroplanes in Britain's wonderful weather having enjoyed limitless cloud free skies...
People for whom a few knots faster on approach was a good thing, as well as landing the aeroplane flat and never hearing the stall warner go off... Lots of bad habits and I grew to disagree with the three week PPL course (for the most part).
But.
I was in England last summer and I was pleasantly surprised at how vibrant the flying business was there.
Yes it costs 60% more to fly, but people were doing it and smiling as the credit card was swiped afterwards.
I saw a few of the EuroStars on the ground for a few minutes at a time between spending hours of fun in the air while I thought of our own $99 an hour SportStar sitting on the ground unloved except by a few who love to fly.
If Canadians loved to fly it would be wonderful for all of us in this business... But beyond hockey there's nothing Canadians love in this life as they take their work so seriously they forget there's a life to live!
Perhaps we should not whinge about the Puppy Mills, we should try to put some optimism and fun back into our own flying and attract others in this way.
In fact when Britain was fighting Napolean and those American rebels decided to have a go at us up here, the French Canadians fought the Americans.
BTW, Wolfe's sister married one of my ancesters according to my father who did the family tree...
I used to drive past Wolfe mounted on his horse whenever I drove to Biggin Hill!
In the apartment building where I live I met a pilot who'd gone through the BCIT aviation program, spent twice as much as any CPL self starter would for the licence, and who earned more in his previous job as a mailman (USA Eng') than I do now with all of my experience.
He went off on a road trip to find a job with his little over 200 hours...
Do college programs produce better pilots with more likelihood of being hired by the airlines?
Maybe, maybe not, but certainly they can charge a proper amount for the training given.
You may think college programs rip the students off by charging them more and perhaps they are getting government subsidies as well, (more money coming in
), but look at it another way and the flying schools are ripping themselves off by trying to compete with the Americans who have lower cost, higher utilisation schools.I'm all for schools charging a rate that keeps them from going bankrupt (as too many do here in Canada), while giving quality training by offering quality people, premises, and aircraft.
As for Britain. Agreed!
We lost nearly all of our training to the USA... Cheap cheap... But this has led to a lower standard of flying there as well.
I had to deal with this... Bright eyed three week minted PPLs coming to rent aeroplanes in Britain's wonderful weather having enjoyed limitless cloud free skies...
People for whom a few knots faster on approach was a good thing, as well as landing the aeroplane flat and never hearing the stall warner go off... Lots of bad habits and I grew to disagree with the three week PPL course (for the most part).
But.
I was in England last summer and I was pleasantly surprised at how vibrant the flying business was there.
Yes it costs 60% more to fly, but people were doing it and smiling as the credit card was swiped afterwards.
I saw a few of the EuroStars on the ground for a few minutes at a time between spending hours of fun in the air while I thought of our own $99 an hour SportStar sitting on the ground unloved except by a few who love to fly.
If Canadians loved to fly it would be wonderful for all of us in this business... But beyond hockey there's nothing Canadians love in this life as they take their work so seriously they forget there's a life to live!
Perhaps we should not whinge about the Puppy Mills, we should try to put some optimism and fun back into our own flying and attract others in this way.
My apology, I read my Canadian History a long time ago...French-Canadiens never held any alliegence to Napoleon
In fact when Britain was fighting Napolean and those American rebels decided to have a go at us up here, the French Canadians fought the Americans.
BTW, Wolfe's sister married one of my ancesters according to my father who did the family tree...
I used to drive past Wolfe mounted on his horse whenever I drove to Biggin Hill!
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angry inch
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Michael P... My dear fellow, you tirelessly speak about things such as, "Canadians forget there's a life to live", and lament about the "Canadian" flying culture, & just basically seem to have a lot of negative comments regarding aviation & aviators in my country. Well old boy, I'm here to tell you that there is an extremely vast and varied aviation community out there waiting for you to discover in Canada. I'm not just speaking of commercial operations here either. I'd venture to guess that compared to your jolly good countrymen back home, we Canadians have a pretty damn good showing per capita, as far as people who go out & fly for fun. It really sounds to me like you need to venture outside the bubble you find yourself in down there in the lower mainland & get out and discover what Canadian Aviation is really all about. CZBB is does not represent a good cross section of Canadian aviation.
A proud Canadian
A proud Canadian
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Angryinch...well said. He just can't help slamming anything Canadian and telling us colonials of his life of poverty and being a superior Brit pilot.
There is a very large number of Canadians who love flying for fun and know how to get the most fun out of an aeroplane. As for the whiny Brit having a number of different aircraft at his disposal...well of course they all belong to someone else and they probably pick up the tab.
Barney
Retired ATC
Retired RCAF
Retired CPL/Flight instructor
Retired FTU manager
A humble Canadian having fun.
There is a very large number of Canadians who love flying for fun and know how to get the most fun out of an aeroplane. As for the whiny Brit having a number of different aircraft at his disposal...well of course they all belong to someone else and they probably pick up the tab.
Barney
Retired ATC
Retired RCAF
Retired CPL/Flight instructor
Retired FTU manager
A humble Canadian having fun.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Spot companies close to the American border. Tank in US of A and apply in CANADA. What a great idea!warbirdpilot7 wrote:What are all the new Class 4's going to do then?
As far as "roadtrips" go, if I were starting out, my vehicle gets 14MPG, its not practical. At todays gas prices, road trips are over............
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
I agree... It does get miserable down here sometimes.It really sounds to me like you need to venture outside the bubble you find yourself in down there in the lower mainland & get out and discover what Canadian Aviation is really all about.
It's a bright sunny Sunday morning and too quiet for me... I was once used to fervent activity getting the aeroplanes ready to make full use of a day like today.
Then there's all the rants I read on AvCanada and if we read what's on here there's a lot of misery out there. I suppose this website depresses me terribly, so I apologise if I come over too critical.
On a brighter note Barney flies from Langley and I think Langley's the new Delta Airpark with a lot of like minded souls flying little aeroplanes together. It's a good atmosphere.
And yes, I fly two aeroplanes there that are not mine, isn't that the best way?
Once upon a time I did own aeroplanes, and I shared them, so it has gone both ways.
CZBB
I remember the Barney Bay Tower all too well, when I came here; the rants and rudeness from CZBB tower which have now become legendary. I thought people must really hate each other here.
The remarks exceeded the snide ones I used to hear once in a while in England... But I injected some humour back into it whenever I could. Humour was a lot more common with UK ATC.
One such occurrence was when ground cleared me to taxy in before I'd called clear of the runway "but I might want to send this bloke solo" I replied, "as long as he doesn't mind being called a bloke", "I'm entitled to call him a bloke", "at least you didn't call him a w*nker" was the reply... No-one would say that word over UK ATC! Everyone on the radio at that time was laughing...
Then there was the question of "donating my time", and the suggestion that the only donation the controller made was to the sperm bank... Every call from the tower had a background of laughter after that conversation!
Nearly all the people who fly for fun are grey haired these days.
I don't see very many eager youngsters coming to the airport wanting to fly for the joy of it. The trend is towards 'how much is it going to cost?' and 'how soon can I get a CPL?'
I've had people nickel and dime me, we publish our rates! I never quibbled over the price when I learned, it was what it was, I paid and I learned a lot.
Maybe what should be explored is the change in the culture as doing something because you like to do it is replaced by the need to justify everything 'professionally'.
It remains to be seen what fruits the efforts of pilots who do Young Eagles flights will produce in the future.
Will there be enough new pilots to fly the RV's being built by passionate pilots of an older generation?
Puppy Mills might lead people on, but at least they have a chance of producing people who might take to aviation for recreation after the disappointment indicated by this thread has passed.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
First of all, Micheal, there is lots of recreational activity in lower BC. Take a 15 minute flight to Chillawak.. Great flying club...Great little restaurant..GREAT PIE! (and on a tangent...Ifly for pie...did you take your handle from there?)
Several very active gliding clubs. Gliders, tents, motorhomes. People joining in and flying all day then sitting around a fire at night to swap lies.
Perhaps take one of you aircraft furnishing benefactors for a $100 piece of pie on a saturday morning to Chillawack. You will see all sorts of planes coming in and a reataurant full of aviation people enjoying aviation for itself. Continue on another few minutes towards Hope..
A gliding club with families partcipating , Dogs, Children, lots of gliders.
Its all out there is southern BC, and you dont have to look far to find it.
Now back to the puppy mills. When I think of a puppy mill I think of a taxpayer subsidized, top heavy, over managed college or assoicate who cranks out some type of persumably superior product that will avoid the bottom end of their start up career by jumping right up the ladder.
Some of the regional airlines loved the idea. Cheap meat. And it would be years before the new hires wised up and realized that they really did need PIC time to advance!!! Brililant stratagy. No high senior salaries, as more would follow as the fed up ones quit.
Personally I would rather hire a 30 something local trained pilot with maturity, real world life and job experience, over a 20 something with no real work history but with an "aviaton management" diploma , having really managed nothing but their cell phone plan.
And , on a lighter note:
College ads should come with the following label. Warning. The director general has determined that 3 out of 4 graduates will not be flying aircraft in the next three years.
The (insert name of college) photo does not necessarily reflect the multi-cultural or gender diversity of the student population.
And how about some relevant clases, Such as career planning advancement 101..How to backstab, suck up, and learn to be a victim as well as how to log PIC time sitting in a plane on the ramp.
Or management 404. Senior executive management techniques for 19 year olds.
My rant for the day.
Several very active gliding clubs. Gliders, tents, motorhomes. People joining in and flying all day then sitting around a fire at night to swap lies.
Perhaps take one of you aircraft furnishing benefactors for a $100 piece of pie on a saturday morning to Chillawack. You will see all sorts of planes coming in and a reataurant full of aviation people enjoying aviation for itself. Continue on another few minutes towards Hope..
A gliding club with families partcipating , Dogs, Children, lots of gliders.
Its all out there is southern BC, and you dont have to look far to find it.
Now back to the puppy mills. When I think of a puppy mill I think of a taxpayer subsidized, top heavy, over managed college or assoicate who cranks out some type of persumably superior product that will avoid the bottom end of their start up career by jumping right up the ladder.
Some of the regional airlines loved the idea. Cheap meat. And it would be years before the new hires wised up and realized that they really did need PIC time to advance!!! Brililant stratagy. No high senior salaries, as more would follow as the fed up ones quit.
Personally I would rather hire a 30 something local trained pilot with maturity, real world life and job experience, over a 20 something with no real work history but with an "aviaton management" diploma , having really managed nothing but their cell phone plan.
And , on a lighter note:
College ads should come with the following label. Warning. The director general has determined that 3 out of 4 graduates will not be flying aircraft in the next three years.
The (insert name of college) photo does not necessarily reflect the multi-cultural or gender diversity of the student population.
And how about some relevant clases, Such as career planning advancement 101..How to backstab, suck up, and learn to be a victim as well as how to log PIC time sitting in a plane on the ramp.
Or management 404. Senior executive management techniques for 19 year olds.
My rant for the day.
Last edited by trey kule on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Accident speculation:
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
1. Do I slam everything Canadian?He just can't help slamming anything Canadian and telling us colonials of his life of poverty and being a superior Brit pilot.
2. I think everyone instructing in Canada can claim a "life of poverty". I realise though that I'm an unwelcome Brit in some people's eyes.
3. On being a superior pilot, please put the quotes down that confirm this allegation.
Far from it, I never claim to being a superior anything.
But I know pilots who tell the world how good they are and the world tends to believe them, so perhaps I don't do myself any favours.
Last year I did an airshow here, my main concern was that I was being watched by someone who is known for his critical vocal viewpoint. He and I have disagreed...
But for many, they never knew the Decathlon could fly like that. It was not even my best air show performance. I'd missed most of the previous night's sleep thinking about it. But what was on my mind was some of the people in authority who were watching... I entered my first manoeuvre 10 knots too slow
I realised that flying an airshow here was no fun... and yet it should have been.
Once upon a time I flew a WAR FW190 in airshows, and at one show the inspector said "the eyes of the CAA are upon you Michael", oh bloody hell, never mind, off I go
It was always fun, and yes like here not many people knew, I don't go around shouting about what I do.Yes, I teach aerobatics, and I think I'm reasonable at doing it, and people who I have done this for have always remarked on the smoothness of the way I fly. There's no need for neck breaking jerks and jolts, but that's perhaps because I have never pretended to be an expert unlimited aerobatic contest pilot, I just like flying aeroplanes.
If I have one slight brag, and I don't like bragging, it's that I have rarely had an unhappy customer, but I have had many surprised customers who hear a lot of the behind my back chat and rumour that go around this neighbourhood and find that the truth is very different.
It has been suggested many times that being on AvCanada is not a good thing... I agree.
I, like anyone else with a different accent have been asked "Isn't Vancouver the best place on Earth?" and variations of this question, and I know it's a minefield that will catch the unwary. We must comply with the popularist viewpoint.
I apologise for having referenced anywhere else in comparison with Canada, and for offending people on here for not always having a popular viewpoint and I again step away from this site.
We should create an AA... AvCanada Anonymous perhaps, "Hello, I am Michael, and I haven't written anything on AvCanada for *** months".
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Call me crazy, but I cant help but think a couple of you bear a bit of anomoysity towards each other. Take it outside.. Get a room. .. PM each other nasty things. Whatever. But dont deal with it here please. Bad mouthing individuals demeans only the poster doing it and convinces no one .
Micheal, I had to chuckle as I have the same impression of self promotion. It bothers the heck out of me, but you have to admit, it seems to work. A few of the self proclaimed, self promoted experts tend to be considered as experts..
I also enjoyed the competitive aerobatic reference. I have flown with both types. One makes areobatics seem like smooth precision type flying, The other, Canopy-head banging, 6 g looping , 9 consecutive snap rolling aces (should that be spelled with ss?)to impress their victim with their expertise. (BTW, by the third or fourth one I usually ask if they are having trouble and offer to take control. Keep up the good work if you are the former.
Micheal, I had to chuckle as I have the same impression of self promotion. It bothers the heck out of me, but you have to admit, it seems to work. A few of the self proclaimed, self promoted experts tend to be considered as experts..
I also enjoyed the competitive aerobatic reference. I have flown with both types. One makes areobatics seem like smooth precision type flying, The other, Canopy-head banging, 6 g looping , 9 consecutive snap rolling aces (should that be spelled with ss?)to impress their victim with their expertise. (BTW, by the third or fourth one I usually ask if they are having trouble and offer to take control. Keep up the good work if you are the former.
Accident speculation:
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Thats weird. I flew out your school at zbb for 2 years (before the age of 20). I like many others i met at said school were working on ppls and flying simply for the joy of it. Its strange that you never see this any of us.Nearly all the people who fly for fun are grey haired these days.
I don't see very many eager youngsters coming to the airport wanting to fly for the joy of it.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Being one of these puppys who just started flying I'm wondering what is the right thing to do? I've been following this forum for a couple of weeks now, very interested in all the opinions out there from mostly experienced pilots. Since I am not from Canada, I don't have a lot of information about the canadian aviation market nor do I have any connections but thanks to this forum I got a very good overview. I know that getting started as a pilot in Canada is much harder than back in Europe and still people are getting and will be getting jobs here, eventually. Since I was a small kid I wanted to become a pilot, spent all my free time at the airport watching planes and as soon as I was old enough to work I got a job as a Ramp Agent. Minimum wage of course, not the best working conditions and terrible hours. All that just to follow my passion and be around airplanes and being involved in the aviation business. I left family and friends at home and moved to Canada to gain some experience in a foreign country, work on my english skills and finally work on my dream to become a pilot. Since I directly worked with pilots in Europe, I know that it is not a dream job but flying is a passion to me and I wouldn't want to do anything else. Now on here, I hear people complaining that there are no jobs out there, flight schools ripping you off wherever they can, too many young pilots and bad salary. Even though I don't want to give up my dream, after reading all these negative comments on this forum, I wonder what to do? Should I just give up my dream because I know it's the easiest way to get a job? I'm aware of the fact that I can't start off as a 747 pilot with around 250hrs after flight school. I don't expect to get a flying job right away, and I know that I'll most likely have to move after school, just to get a flying job in some remote area with minimum salary and lot's of work (probably also on the ground) just to get to fly a 'small' Piper Navajo or something. But I'll be happy as long as I end up doing the job that I really want to do as oppose to sepnd 30 years of my life in an office, monday to friday, 9-5. I don't want to get rich with this job, just be happy with what I'm doing and hopefully being able to pay my bills.
So after all these negative comments about flying nowadays on this board, I would really like to know what you guys would recommend to someone, who is really passionate about flying and doesn't want to give up his dream. So far I actually didn't see many positive comments about flying careers on here and this is actually a little bit discouraging for beginners like me. I know it's not going to be easy but I still have hope that I'll end up with a decent flying job eventually.
So after all these negative comments about flying nowadays on this board, I would really like to know what you guys would recommend to someone, who is really passionate about flying and doesn't want to give up his dream. So far I actually didn't see many positive comments about flying careers on here and this is actually a little bit discouraging for beginners like me. I know it's not going to be easy but I still have hope that I'll end up with a decent flying job eventually.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
If flying is your dream and passion... then why are you listening to what other people think?MIQ wrote:So after all these negative comments about flying nowadays on this board, I would really like to know what you guys would recommend to someone, who is really passionate about flying and doesn't want to give up his dream. So far I actually didn't see many positive comments about flying careers on here and this is actually a little bit discouraging for beginners like me. I know it's not going to be easy but I still have hope that I'll end up with a decent flying job eventually.
Use a little squelch and focus on what you are doing here and now.
Chase your dream and enjoy the experience.
But if you aren't in it for the journey, then go make a living doing something else, and fly for yourself on the weekends.
Just my two bits.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
I don't particularly agree with the idea that these schools are ''puppy mills.'' Having said that, I'll be entering at the CQFA next year, so I may have a slight bias.
The way I see it is this...where I am going, I will pay a total of about 1000$ of tuition for over 200 hours of flying, some of the best ground instruction available in the world to someone in my position, and fly top notch aircraft (including a PA-31). Maybe the CQFA is the exception to the rule, but I think these colleges offer us young pilots a great opportunity to do a lot of ground work, some flight time, get our licenses/ratings, and make a network of friends and future colleagues. We can then go and do an instructor rating, or work the ramp or whatever the case may be and pay off our loans (or save money to fly). Myself, having close to 100 hours already and always flying, will finish from my puppy mill with almost 500 hours TT, Multi-IFR (45 hours on Navajo...not bad!), King Air sim time, and probably a hundred new friends and contacts. It's all what you make of it, how much you do to prepare yourself, and what you have planned for after you're done. If a student is walking into MFC thinking ''I'll leave here and go work right seat at Jazz for a few years before they fast-track me to Captain on the Dreamliner at AC...that's the student's fault, not the college's.
As far as fun goes - why else would one give up an engineering degree, and go live in a small town where they know nobody and don't have mom to iron their clothes for them? It's going to be a total blast......
The way I see it is this...where I am going, I will pay a total of about 1000$ of tuition for over 200 hours of flying, some of the best ground instruction available in the world to someone in my position, and fly top notch aircraft (including a PA-31). Maybe the CQFA is the exception to the rule, but I think these colleges offer us young pilots a great opportunity to do a lot of ground work, some flight time, get our licenses/ratings, and make a network of friends and future colleagues. We can then go and do an instructor rating, or work the ramp or whatever the case may be and pay off our loans (or save money to fly). Myself, having close to 100 hours already and always flying, will finish from my puppy mill with almost 500 hours TT, Multi-IFR (45 hours on Navajo...not bad!), King Air sim time, and probably a hundred new friends and contacts. It's all what you make of it, how much you do to prepare yourself, and what you have planned for after you're done. If a student is walking into MFC thinking ''I'll leave here and go work right seat at Jazz for a few years before they fast-track me to Captain on the Dreamliner at AC...that's the student's fault, not the college's.
As far as fun goes - why else would one give up an engineering degree, and go live in a small town where they know nobody and don't have mom to iron their clothes for them? It's going to be a total blast......
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winds_in_flight_wtf
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
I was to start by saying what a great thread.habs.fan wrote:I don't particularly agree with the idea that these schools are ''puppy mills.'' Having said that, I'll be entering at the CQFA next year, so I may have a slight bias.
The way I see it is this...where I am going, I will pay a total of about 1000$ of tuition for over 200 hours of flying, some of the best ground instruction available in the world to someone in my position, and fly top notch aircraft (including a PA-31). Maybe the CQFA is the exception to the rule, but I think these colleges offer us young pilots a great opportunity to do a lot of ground work, some flight time, get our licenses/ratings, and make a network of friends and future colleagues. We can then go and do an instructor rating, or work the ramp or whatever the case may be and pay off our loans (or save money to fly). Myself, having close to 100 hours already and always flying, will finish from my puppy mill with almost 500 hours TT, Multi-IFR (45 hours on Navajo...not bad!), King Air sim time, and probably a hundred new friends and contacts. It's all what you make of it, how much you do to prepare yourself, and what you have planned for after you're done. If a student is walking into MFC thinking ''I'll leave here and go work right seat at Jazz for a few years before they fast-track me to Captain on the Dreamliner at AC...that's the student's fault, not the college's.
As far as fun goes - why else would one give up an engineering degree, and go live in a small town where they know nobody and don't have mom to iron their clothes for them? It's going to be a total blast......
As for the information quoted above, you will be surprised how many of these colleges thrive off that "Jazz" / right seat out of college bullshit. Its true! It was not too long ago that a first year Sault student was telling me how it is possible to fly a 777 for AC by the time you're 22. I run into people weekly who live that life of luxury quoted above : Again , scary. The fact some airlines around the world WILL put you on a 747 after flying a 172 -well, just feeds the fire. Not saying this is a bad thing, but the reality is Canada does not entertain these types of practices on a unprecedented scale.
There are a few downsides mind you. 1)College of Pilots (what happened to it) ? Why is Canada UNABLE to regulate the absolute mental influx of pilots with the few jobs that are available? 2) There seems to be a big break down the middle , with those who want to fly for fun , and those who will literally invest in prada knee pads to earn $5000 a year. If it comes down to private flight schools, etc. , why don't people expose them here? Have a section of the forums where one can rate their experiences at _______flight school? What they paid, (avg) , syllabus organisation, etc.
Mind you I think the situation is more complicated than a few flight schools ripping people off. Perhaps a "self-respect" issue after watching top gun one too many times?
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
When I did the entrance exams for Sault (in 2001 I think), the professor doing the information session before the exams made it perfectly clear what life was going to be like trying to succeed in this industry. He did not sugar coat anything, and laid out that it was a long road to make it to the airlines if thats where you wanted to get. And he said that if you just decided you wanted to fly, once you realized high school was ending, and hadn't had a passion for it before, you should probably leave as you're not likely to be successful.
During my time in the program it was clear that it isn't easy afterwards. Maybe they've changed how they do those sessions, but they told us straight up.
During my time in the program it was clear that it isn't easy afterwards. Maybe they've changed how they do those sessions, but they told us straight up.
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
Agree with above. I keep hearing about flight schools brainwashing people, but I've never heard a flight school brainwash people.
I think some might be exaggerating a bit. Everybody I've ever met during flight training, private school or college gents, were all quite understanding of the reality of the career.
I think some might be exaggerating a bit. Everybody I've ever met during flight training, private school or college gents, were all quite understanding of the reality of the career.
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
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iflyforpie
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
I think that a lot of people are so intoxicated by the prospect of flying that they knowingly put the blinders on and plunge ahead anyways, either embracing or ignoring the Bohemian lifestyle necessary to make it through those first few years.
I don't think we need to limit the intake of students because the system is self limiting. Those who try and fail simply make the cost of training bearable for the rest of us. Most pilots think they are better than everyone else and that they are going to make it into the coveted slots.
What does need to change is the wages and working conditions. I didn't have a problem--I set my own standards and simply wouldn't fly for less or for risky operations. It's the pilots who are willing to work for $500 to get ahead of their peers is what is wrong.
I don't think we need to limit the intake of students because the system is self limiting. Those who try and fail simply make the cost of training bearable for the rest of us. Most pilots think they are better than everyone else and that they are going to make it into the coveted slots.
What does need to change is the wages and working conditions. I didn't have a problem--I set my own standards and simply wouldn't fly for less or for risky operations. It's the pilots who are willing to work for $500 to get ahead of their peers is what is wrong.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!
I think back on my instructing days, and I must admit that I was shockingly blunt to bright eyed commercial prospects (to put it politely) about the industry. Although I was a line instructor, I had the opportunity to teach a few seminars to the aviation college students being trained at my FTU. I used to call it my "Reality 101" course, also known as the "reality sandwich... take a big bite". The looks on their faces were absolutely priceless. I really didn't know what sort of crap they were fed, but I told them in no uncertain terms that if they really believed that upon completion of their course, that a stretch limo was going to pull into the parking lot, roll out a red carpet and proceed to beg them to bless them with the privilage of their skills for their company flying their Dash 8-100 or 737-200 (both state of the art back then).... they were very sadly mistaken.
I was quite frank in the statistics of just how many of them will never get a job in aviation, how many would work for a year or two and give up, and how few will see the inside of a jet. I would also tell them of the things that could make the difference of getting that first job. The sad thing about it is that I had very few of them ask me for help in doing up a resume, or about whether they should do their IFR, or their instructor rating first, maybe a float rating.
The funny thing is though, that while employed as an instuctor at that same FTU, my schedule was always full. It's been a long time since I've been instructing or have had anything to do with a FTU, but it sounds like things haven't changed much. Maybe they appreciated the honesty.
I was quite frank in the statistics of just how many of them will never get a job in aviation, how many would work for a year or two and give up, and how few will see the inside of a jet. I would also tell them of the things that could make the difference of getting that first job. The sad thing about it is that I had very few of them ask me for help in doing up a resume, or about whether they should do their IFR, or their instructor rating first, maybe a float rating.
The funny thing is though, that while employed as an instuctor at that same FTU, my schedule was always full. It's been a long time since I've been instructing or have had anything to do with a FTU, but it sounds like things haven't changed much. Maybe they appreciated the honesty.
