ACPA Implodes !

[Morry Bund]

The Toronto Road Show meeting for today has been cancelled. The IVR contract ratification vote has been cancelled.

There is an emergency meeting of the MEC being convened today to discuss the Recall petition and the setting up of the IVR Vote to impeach the MEC Chair.

Decertification of ACPA is apparently a serious probability, with ALPA waiting in the wings, apparently counseling some disgruntled ACPA members about how to set the legal steps in motion, now that the collective agreement is open.

[Gentle Giant]

The Toronto Road Show meeting for today has been cancelled. The IVR contract ratification vote has been cancelled.

There is an emergency meeting of the MEC being convened today to discuss the Recall petition and the setting up of the IVR Vote to impeach the MEC Chair.

Decertification of ACPA is apparently a serious probability, with ALPA waiting in the wings, apparently counseling some disgruntled ACPA members about how to set the legal steps in motion, now that the collective agreement is open.

Ahhh, not quite.

The meeting today went ahead but the negotiating committee members were not present, just the MEC members.

It's not an "emergency" meeting, it's a "special" meeting. ("emergency" is when you're on fire or the wing has fallen off).

It's not "impeach" it's "recall". "Impeach" implies misconduct while "recall" implies unsatisfactory performance - completely different.

Decertification is very unlikely. There is no desire that I've noted for switching horses. It's almost certain that the MEC chair will be replaced, pretty certain that the negotiating committee will resign and unlikely that ALPA will be seriously considered.

[rudder]

2 ways in - a card drive followed by a representation vote (choices: ACPA or ALPA) or an agreement to merge pilot associations (same protocol as IACP, FPA, NPA, etc) that would result from a mandate of the AC pilots through ACPA.

The decisions and actions of the MEC in the next days will probably go a long way towards influencing the momentum of the forces for representational change. Worst outcome is a divided pilot group so hopefully the MEC will conduct itself with that in mind.

[ggofp]

How about joint alpa/acpa informational picketing at the island!
I'm with you if you are with me!

[IronMan]

LOL what would be the information you would like ALPA to convey on ACPA's behalf? Wait, I know...

"ACPA Supports Unionized Pilot Workforce!" Umm nope can't do that one...see threads on SkyRegional...
"APCA Supports The Advancement of Pilot Wages!" Uhh, no not that either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Supports Improved Pilot Working Conditions!" Hmmm, that just doesn't work either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Had The Opportunity To Demonstrate Leadership and Integrety Within the Professional Piloting Industry and Failed Miserably!" Yup That might be close. When you get that sign made, PM me and I'll join you on the Island for some quality time together.

[Gentle Giant]

LOL what would be the information you would like ALPA to convey on ACPA's behalf? Wait, I know...

"ACPA Supports Unionized Pilot Workforce!" Umm nope can't do that one...see threads on SkyRegional...
"APCA Supports The Advancement of Pilot Wages!" Uhh, no not that either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Supports Improved Pilot Working Conditions!" Hmmm, that just doesn't work either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Had The Opportunity To Demonstrate Leadership and Integrety Within the Professional Piloting Industry and Failed Miserably!".

Did you miss the part about the pilots refusing to accept the new T/A that has those concessions? Air Canada management certainly wants the things you mentioned but the pilots don't.

[the original tony]

Ironman, first and last time I'll say this hopefully.
What do Jazz guys get flying around a 57? Let me guess TC came
to Jazz cause the name was cool...... Jazz is flying them most likely
as the lowest bidder. AC diversified it's flying and it's reducing wages.
Jazz does the same and it's good business. How does this work exactly?
Enough with AC and the Island. Bottom line if one airline can diversify then so
can the other.
Leave shit out of this for now. The TA blew, it's going back for whatever can be done to it.

Tony

[Localizer]

Ironman, first and last time I'll say this hopefully.
What do Jazz guys get flying around a 57? Let me guess TC came
to Jazz cause the name was cool...... Jazz is flying them most likely
as the lowest bidder. AC diversified it's flying and it's reducing wages.
Jazz does the same and it's good business. How does this work exactly?
Enough with AC and the Island. Bottom line if one airline can diversify then so
can the other.
Leave shit out of this for now. The TA blew, it's going back for whatever can be done to it.

Tony

Tony ..

What Jazz "the company" bids on potential flying is one thing, but the pilots doing the flying did there best to maintain "industry standard". Jazz pilots are operating the 57's at the same wage Skyservice paid .. You might be confusing (as most on this forum do) status pay and formula pay.

Jazz "the pilots" didn't give up anything to operate those aircraft .. they gained .. hence doing there part to better the industry then dismantle it.

The TA blew, it's going back for whatever can be done to it.

How about start by advocating for unionized groups to do the YTZ/Tier 2 flying.

[countryhick]

Tony, wrong info dude.

Apparently you have missed the seemingly endless threads on the pay structure at Jazz.

First, STATUS pay. A big pot of money divied up equally based on years of service.

Second, all pilots with equal years of service and equal positions make the same amount. Shocking, I know..

Third, the amount in the pot of money is calculated using industry standard rates. Recalculated yearly with 6 month look ahead/behind for fleet composition.

Jazz did not lower wages, EVERY pilots wage increased as a result of the TC flying, and sorry, we were not the lowest bidder!!

[rudder]

SSV rates plus DB Pension Plan plus top notch benefits, per diems, work rules, vacation, etc.

Not lowest bidder.

SkyRegional? Lowest bidder

[vic777]

("emergency" is when you're on fire or the wing has fallen off).

You're one cool cat! When the wing falls off, the emergency is over.

It's almost certain that the MEC chair will be replaced, pretty certain that the negotiating committee will resign

but given your perspective ... " there's nothing going on behind that curtain, move along". Sounds like the wing is falling off.

[Gentle Giant]

("emergency" is when you're on fire or the wing has fallen off).

You're one cool cat! When the wing falls off, the emergency is over.

It's almost certain that the MEC chair will be replaced, pretty certain that the negotiating committee will resign

but given your perspective ... " there's nothing going on behind that curtain, move along". Sounds like the wing is falling off.

Actually I think lots is going on behind the curtain just that there's no need for immediate action or panic - no emergency. We have all the time we want to do it right.

[IronMan]

LOL what would be the information you would like ALPA to convey on ACPA's behalf? Wait, I know...

"ACPA Supports Unionized Pilot Workforce!" Umm nope can't do that one...see threads on SkyRegional...
"APCA Supports The Advancement of Pilot Wages!" Uhh, no not that either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Supports Improved Pilot Working Conditions!" Hmmm, that just doesn't work either...see threads on SkyRegional...
"ACPA Had The Opportunity To Demonstrate Leadership and Integrety Within the Professional Piloting Industry and Failed Miserably!".

Did you miss the part about the pilots refusing to accept the new T/A that has those concessions? Air Canada management certainly wants the things you mentioned but the pilots don't.

I thought my post was quite clearly targetted at the SkyRegional issue, and yes I understand what's happening with your TA. The concept of joint picketting to support one groups attempt to put the other out of business is just to funny.

[Morry Bund]

Deep split in the MEC, based primarily on East-West lines. MEC Chair refuses to willingly step down. Conference call on whether to validate the names on the on-line petition for recall resulted in an almost even East-West split on the corresponding motion, with some calling for a resignation of both the entire MEC and the Negotiating Committee.

[bcflyer]

From what I've seen the MEC and NC seem to be disconnected from what the membership wants and as a result they have lost the members trust. I really don't see anyway for them to gain it back with the current situation. The easiest way would be for them all to resign, then hold elections for a new MEC. Those who resigned would be able to stand for re-election if they so choose (there are at least 6 of them who appear to still be in touch with reality and would likely be re elected) but with a much tighter rein from the overall membership.

There is no rush for us to get a new CA. The one we are currently working under isn't great but it is far better than the crap TA they tried to ram down our throat. The only people with timeline issues are the the company itself and that certainly isn't our problem...

[Gentle Giant]

From what I've seen the MEC and NC seem to be disconnected from what the membership wants and as a result they have lost the members trust. I really don't see anyway for them to gain it back with the current situation. The easiest way would be for them all to resign, then hold elections for a new MEC. Those who resigned would be able to stand for re-election if they so choose (there are at least 6 of them who appear to still be in touch with reality and would likely be re elected) but with a much tighter rein from the overall membership.

There is no rush for us to get a new CA. The one we are currently working under isn't great but it is far better than the crap TA they tried to ram down our throat. The only people with timeline issues are the the company itself and that certainly isn't our problem...

I agree completely.

[rudder]

MEC Chairman refuses to tender resignation despite a petition with 1400 names on it. Guess that he assumes (incorrectly) that he has the support of the 1474 that haven't signed it yet......consistent with the standard that he has set requiring him to only represent 51% of the pilots.

ACPA President is quoted in the media saying that this all may just be a misunderstanding - communication issues that can be remedied by letters of clarification. Reminds everybody that "Democracy can be messy".

MEC split 50/50 on everything! (ever heard of a roll call vote?)

One would hope the membership has a clear idea of where they want to go because it is painfully obvious that the leadership does not.

[Morry Bund]

The MEC has been split for years, with the YVR group being dominant for most of the last decade, but totally in control since the election of the existing MEC Chair. Insiders refer to them as the "Group of Seven."

Under recent stewardship, we have seen a strong move away from the openness, concensus, and "grass roots" orientation of the founding members, into a set of cliques, specialized Committees and back room dealings, especially with senior management of Air Canada. In addition, there has been a concentration of power into the hands of very, very few, with some elected and appointed members sitting on several Committees for long, long periods of time. That has had an exclusionary effect for anyone trying to get directly involved.

There has also been a tendency to close down communication. Very little background information is ever given to the membership about onging developments, which partly explains the shock effect of the recent tentative agreement.

The most distinguishing, and perhaps problematic characteristic of this and recent MECs, however, is the partisan, paternalistic attitude displayed, especially in an open expression of hostility to specific subgroups of the membership, such as the more senior members.

[ogc]

Out of curiosity have any of the other unions that represent Air Canada employees made concessions in their contracts in the last decade?

I believe it is CUPE and the CAW representing customer service and ramp workers is this correct?

[yyz monkey]

Out of curiosity have any of the other unions that represent Air Canada employees made concessions in their contracts in the last decade?

I believe it is CUPE and the CAW representing customer service and ramp workers is this correct?

CUPE represents the Flight Attendants.
CAW represents the Customer Service Agents
IAM represents the ramp, GSE & AMEs

[Rockie]

It is clear to me this MEC (with some exceptions of course) is doing what is best for them as individuals, not the membership, and this TA is simply a continuation of an agenda that I first noticed with the age 60 issue. Deny information, work in secrecy, and implement policies that ensure their own advancement despite terrible cost to those behind them.

Air Canada pilots need to wake up to what their union has been doing to them in every area of representation, not just the contract.

[vic777]

It is clear to me this MEC (with some exceptions of course) is doing what is best for them as individuals, not the membership, and this TA is simply a continuation of an agenda that I first noticed with the age 60 issue. Deny information, work in secrecy, and implement policies that ensure their own advancement despite terrible cost to those behind them.

I think you nailed it Rockie. That certainly seems to be the situation. It appears as if GREED is the main force behind all their decisions.

[Sage]

While I agree that bw and his western cronies need to leave, I got to tell you, I almost pissed myself laughing to hear the fly til you die group talk about greed! DD You guys kill me! In many ways...

[Rockie]

I'm not a FTYD guy and I'm nowhere close to retirement. The MEC proved to me five years ago with the age 60 issue they cannot be trusted to make decisions on behalf of the membership. This TA proved it to pretty much everybody else too, but yet you somehow can't correlate it to other issues. Do you honestly think this is the only time ACPA has acted detrimentally to your best interests?

[Understated]

I got to tell you, I almost pissed myself laughing to hear the fly til you die group talk about greed!

I suppose that you would much rather listen to the ACPA President telling the Parliamentary Committee and pretty well anyone else who would listen that Air Canada pilots are overpaid? If you are wondering why the entire ACPA MEC is having difficulties right now, you don't have to look very far to come up with a list of their miscalculations and misjudgments.

By the way, you won't find the word "greed" used in any documentation that has ever emanated from the Fly Past 60 Coalition. That orientation is not on our radar, and it never will be, notwithstanding the unfortunate use of the word here by some who support the Coalition's objectives.