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BeaverDriver13
 Post subject: Taildragger Crosswinds
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Hey everyone,

Just wondering what the best technique is for stiff crosswinds in a taildragger. I've heard a couple different things. Whether it be two point landing and get the tail wheel on the ground as soon as you can... or two point with braking to keep it straight and let the tail wheel come down is it normally does. Is there any correct way that it should be done? Just wondering if there are any other techniques out there that I don't know of or haven't tried yet.

BD13


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:38 pm 
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First off what type of tail wheel airplane are you flying?


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cdnpilot77
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:15 pm 
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By his name I would guess a DHC-2. I am interested in reading this as well for a dhc-2


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BeaverDriver13
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:17 am 
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Curious for the beaver, as well as for a Cessna 180/185


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Hornblower
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:11 am 
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BeaverDriver13 wrote:
Hey everyone,
Just wondering what the best technique is for stiff crosswinds in a taildragger ... with braking to keep it straight
BD13


... not recommended (by me anyways) ... use rudder (and a little throttle if necessary).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSbaD8u0 ... r_embedded


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:04 am 
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Questions such as this can get tricky to answer when we have no idea of your experience and flying skills level.

However I agree with Hornblower on the use of brakes issue....rudder and aileron are your primary controls to maintain direction once on the ground...brakes are only used if the yaw gets beyond the effectiveness of the flight controls...which means you let it get out of control.

Early lowering of the tail will help with directional control if there is a locking tail wheel and it is locked.....

The best advice I can give you is do a wheel landing and keep it straight down the runway at all times always especially in a X/wind.


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Northern Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:22 am 
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I find that once I pin the mains on I use gradually increasing aileron into wind as the air speed decreases. Full deflection of the aileron once you are moving slow enough that it doesn't lift the out side wheel off the ground. I usually fly a turbine otter, and I will use reverse to get her to a slow taxi speed in a timely fashion. I will usually only use T/O flap for landing into a strong cross wind. I get rid of the flap once I am on the ground. There have been occasions I have landed across the runway onto a taxiway or apron in extreme circumstances. An example at the end of the video I linked below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3XzkC7qIrY


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cgzro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:29 am 
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Depends on the plane I guess but Ive always found it much safer to do a three point in strong cross winds in the aircraft I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8mR9BXW ... ata_player

It would definitely be more dangerous in something like a Pitts due to the high speed needed to two point 90-100mph.

In a J3 or Decathlon Citabria its much easier and slower but you still need more runway etc


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:56 am 
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These discussions can get kind of tricky as I mentioned because of several factors that sway our opinions such as aircraft type.

From my personal experience I can only recall one airplane that was a bit tricky to wheel land and that was a Pitts.

As to landing distances required I can't recall one type that I could not wheel land in the same amount of runway as it takes to three point it, in fact some of them could be wheeled on shorter than I could three point them.

Remember these things are more subjective than objective. :mrgreen:


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Castorero
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:34 am 
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There is no clear cut answer to this eternal question.
It is akin to asking "does this make me look Fat?"

I flew a 185 for 18 years and never did a two wheel landing that I can recall.
The Bush Master that taught me to handle the 185 had a tail wheel stuck up his ass, and so it went.

Since I discovered two wheel landings, I must say that at times, in a really good Xwind, flying it on straight, wing into wind, holding it on the ground with pressure while keeping straight with rudder gives me a greater sense of control. Especially if runway length is not a factor.
It would not occur to me of using the brake to keep it going straight with the tail still up, too much going on with one foot at the same time that could cause a bit of cerebral confusion, resulting in too much brake at the wrong time and an unpleasant ground loop, especially if it is gusty... In the 185 for sure.

On a short mountain strip I like to sit on the tail wheel and ride it on first, dump flaps and jump on the brakes This is where I would use the brakes as well as the rudder to keep it from heading for the stumps.

In the Beaver I don't think that it matters much what technique one uses, the darn thing is so docile, it practically lands itself, given a modicum of basic stick and rudder skills on the part of the driver, cross wind or not.
Being in control of the airplane, actually " Feeling in Control " is much more important than the landing technique, especially in squirrelly winds and short strips.

Years ago, Bush Master Floyd, encouraged me to "FEEL in Control" by slapping the control wheel, back and forth with one hand as one would a misbehaving animal. "slap her down, man, slap her down" he would say on short final, to instill that "In Control Feeling".
Much like riding a wild bronco and giving it the spurs a bit, in order to let it know who's the boss.
Man, master over beast, master over machine.

Sounds a little loopy, but it sure worked for me.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:35 pm 
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I never fail to find these discussions interesting and am reminded that everyone has their own belief systems and they generally are based on how they were taught during the first phase of any kind of flying.

Fortunately for me I learned to fly when tail wheel airplanes were the only kind of trainers we had, my instructors taught me both types of landings were equally important to learn and use as needed.

As my career progressed I gradually morphed to using the wheel landing technique for almost all landings in any tail wheel airplane as it gives me better control and allows for more accuracy in the touch down point.

It was probably having spent so many hours flying Beech 18's and DC3's that morphed me into doing wheel landings as the preferred method ( around six to seven thousand hours between the Beech and the 3. ) so I guess my tail wheel flying has been influenced by what I flew in the early stage of my career so that accounts for my preference for wheel landings.

I am not sure exactly what a " master " pilot is but I was taught and believe that airplane control movements should be as gentle as you can be while still getting the desired movement of the airplanes flight path....in other words smoothness is paramount in flying any aircraft.

Then of course these are only our own personal beliefs. :mrgreen:


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Castorero
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Ah Cat, my little pussycatalino :mrgreen:

You are so right, early influences shape our future actions for sure.
One is fortunate to have a good teacher at any time but even more so at the very outset.

At the time I transitioned from the Piper Scareahawk Hatchet tricycle to the 185, I sought out the best bush pilot in the vicinity to keep me from an early demise or the dreaded ground loop in the early stages of transition from a wimpy performer to a true racehorse.
I am a bit of a slow learner, so I took 22 hrs before Floyd got fed up with me and kicked me out of the nest.

In my eyes, Floyd was truly a Master, as he knew everything...He could land that beast on a postage stamp, a side road and everything in between...


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BeaverDriver13
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys. It's always nice to hear some input from you more experienced guys. Castorero, thanks for your reply, I appreciate all the info. Cat, I've always enjoyed reading your posts, I'm sure you've helped many people on this site over the years. Safe flying and thanks again, cheers.


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Hornblower
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:51 pm 
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I agree with Cat that a wheel landing affords a little more control and control authority in most landing situations but ... a perfectly executed 3 point is poetry to watch. A perfect 3 point is something to strive for, and should be practiced.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:00 am 
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Quote:
Cat, I've always enjoyed reading your posts, I'm sure you've helped many people on this site over the years. Safe flying and thanks again, cheers.


The pleasure is mine because I hope every one of you will be as fortunate as I was to have learned when to make decisions that gave me a plus factor on the safe side.

As I put on the bottom of my posts.

Quote:
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


Never ever get your mind thinking you are better than than you really are, because if you do you are setting yourself up for an accident....but....you still need to be confident you can actually do what you are about to do. :mrgreen:

Its a real bitch staying in the center of the whole process. :mrgreen:


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Castorero
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:15 am 
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Cat said:
"Never ever get your mind thinking you are better than than you really are, because if you do you are setting yourself up for an accident....but....you still need to be confident you can actually do what you are about to do." :mrgreen:


That should be tattoed on every young pilots wrist for quick reference, and perhaps on the arm of the odd veteran as well...


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Liquid Charlie
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:52 am 
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Landed in YPL in a DC-3 with 90 degrees and 40 kts -- we actually kept flying all day but when a guy came in and landed with a stone boat (single otter) - I was very humbled -- :smt040 - damn that was impressive --

Like CAT says -- depends on the airplane - all I know is that the old DAK and the Bch18 were both good in a xwind up to 40kts -- after that - well I guess it depended on how badly you had to land --


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l_reason
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Great ideas from everyone!! If you have a few hundred bucks burning a hole in your pocket I'd say wait until the wind is blowing 20kts and head out for a plane ride. Do a couple hours of circuits (low level or tear drop if you want to get even more landings in). If you can get someone that has a couple thousand hours of tail-wheel time in the right seat even better. I like to use the old RAF airfields, 6 runways to chose from and if your lucky you can try out landing on 3 runways if you have the airfield to your self. Once you do a few laps, let the speed get down to walking pace before you take off again. Most TW planes will bite you just as hard doing 10mph as they will doing 40.

With a little luck you will have spend a couple hours at the airport, a hundred liters of gas and learned some new skills. Its always easier to learn when you aren't under any pressure to land, just ease the power in and try it again or land on another runway.

I agree that 2 point is nice in a crosswind but if your landing on a bumpy strip in gusty conditions, or if there is mechanical turbulence associated with the strong crosswind, you are often better off to just plant it on 3 point and start slowing down use the breakes if you have to.

Have fun.


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pilotidentity
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:03 am 
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I'll agree with Casterero’s coach on the 185, you’ve got to grab the bull by the horns and fly it, make a decision and stick to it. Sorry Cat, a little over controlling lets the girls know whose boss :smt014 .

I also like planting it on the mains on pavement in a stiff x wind. Rough and short I’ll always stall it on (the tail touches first with the stall kits, clunk clunk) and dump the flaps. Works for me.

I always feel more in control with a hot wheel landing in a stiff crosswind but stalling it on as you kick it straight gets rid of the balancing act. Whatever works for the situation and causes the least amount of hairs on the back on the neck to stand up.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:12 pm 
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We all have our different opinions regarding how to fly airplanes, however some statements are just plain wrong when it comes to aircraft handling.

When you use an amount of control deflection that you are knowingly over controlling you are doing exactly that " OVER CONTROLLING "

And that is not optimum airplane handling ...period.

During my time at the Airbus factory in Toulouse working with the company test pilots one of their most important tasks was getting the computers fine tuned to over ride excessive pilot control in puts. So even in the new age generation of airplanes this problem of pilot over controlling is a factor they design around.


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Castorero
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:50 am 
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Least someone start abusing their machine based on Floyd's "feeling in control" exercise, I think I should clarify that somewhat...

The "slapping" of the control wheel with one hand while maintaining control with the other is in no way intended to exert any discernible control inputs on the airplane or to induce momentary convulsive contortions in the airplane's flight path.

That would be missing the point entirely.
The exercise is more mental than physical, the idea is to bring oneself squarely in the moment, behind the wheel and in effective control.
However one achieves that state, whether it be by slapping the wheel, or some other inane ritual, it should have no effect on the smooth handling of the machine in this last critical segment of flight.

I find that a final wiggle of the ass on the seat achieves the same result.


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Indanao
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:29 am 
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l_reason wrote:
Great ideas from everyone!! If you have a few hundred bucks burning a hole in your pocket I'd say wait until the wind is blowing 20kts and head out for a plane ride. Do a couple hours of circuits (low level or tear drop if you want to get even more landings in). If you can get someone that has a couple thousand hours of tail-wheel time in the right seat even better. I like to use the old RAF airfields, 6 runways to chose from and if your lucky you can try out landing on 3 runways if you have the airfield to your self. Once you do a few laps, let the speed get down to walking pace before you take off again. Most TW planes will bite you just as hard doing 10mph as they will doing 40.

With a little luck you will have spend a couple hours at the airport, a hundred liters of gas and learned some new skills. Its always easier to learn when you aren't under any pressure to land, just ease the power in and try it again or land on another runway.

I agree that 2 point is nice in a crosswind but if your landing on a bumpy strip in gusty conditions, or if there is mechanical turbulence associated with the strong crosswind, you are often better off to just plant it on 3 point and start slowing down use the breakes if you have to.

Have fun.



Can you do it with a DC3 ?


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trey kule
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:41 pm 
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From the title of the thread, I thought there were different winds for taildraggers.

Cat said all that needs to be said really:
Quote:
keep it straight down the runway at all times always especially in a X/wind.
Quote:
Cant always do wheel landings in every plane Cat...Big props touch the ground.

I am going to add only two little comments..Dont stop flying the plane until the engine is turned off. Some of the other info you got here, is a bit sketchy , IMHO.

Lastly, if you are flying the Beaver on wheels, it has to be one of the easiest aircraft to land on wheels in any wind, despite the DC number . It will easily handle 4 or 5 times that X-wind..And I speak from experience. The only problem with the Beaver is once you get it all nicely on the ground and slowed right down it will weathercock and the brakes are not able to stop it,, Some interesting company SOP's on how to deal with that situation.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:40 am 
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Quote:
Cant always do wheel landings in every plane Cat...Big props touch the ground.


That may be true but they are seldom the types of airplanes that most pilots will get the chance to fly.

What airplanes are you referring to?


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trey kule
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:22 am 
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I only mentioned that because the rest of your advice was 100% bang on, I thought.

And you are right. so let me elaborate as you have asked the question. I dont want to get into an ancedotal pissing match here but there are a few (two ex mil) planes used for forestry spraying that will touch the prop if you go up on the mains by touching the brakes or pushing the stick to far forward. You only have to go out to an airport when one of the hotshots is checking out a new pilot and having them go along the runway first on one main and then the other. It apparently is some sort of tailwheel training exercise. One of those fun things to impress the new tailwheel pilot rather than teach them. (ahhhhh. I was trying not to post anything controversial as I know you like to argue.)

And I have noticed in checking pilots out over the years , they tend to want to pin it on the mains in a wind, rather than to just let it roll out. Which brings me to my comment again. Wheel landings are not necessarily about pinning it on, and I have found most of my tailwheel landing are a bit of both.Touchdown on the mains with the tail a few inches of the ground so it settles quickly. Lots of pictures of taildraggers that went over with hard braking and having the stick all the way back avoids , or at least reduces that error.

I only posted because I shudder when posters talk about how they move this or that control this way in a crosswind..Winds gust and vary. You do what is necessary to keep the wings level (after landing), and the plane rolling straight, not some predetermined formula that may just not work as it should one day.


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