WG terminal, short AGAIN

[SII]

who said anything about running an airline?

[Valid31]

Seem like a load of shit to me. you need people hire them. your area is the toughest in canada pay a premium. 1 in 10 make it figure out how many people you need and hire 10 times as many. If I ran my buisness the way your company is, I'd be bankrupt. staffing really isn't that big of a deal, unless you truly believe you are the smartest people in aviation (which put's you about the middle of the road for everyone else in this industry)

So, the way you run your business is to just hire a bunch of random people and hope one or two works out? Might work for your lawn cutting company, but aviation is a little more specific.

No company can afford to hire 10x the staffing they need, devote every resource possible in an attempt to train them, with the expectation that 90% will be cut. We also can't just hire random people and hope they work out. Our selection has to be targeted to those who have the best chance for success (just like any other business, with the exception of yours, I guess...). You say staffing isn't really that big of a deal, but I think the rest of the world would disagree when they consider who is keeping their family's airplane from hitting some other familiy's airplane. I think the rest of the world would consider ATC staffing to be a very big deal indeed.

When is the last time you saw WestJet post an ad which read "we are looking for any 200-hr Navajo pilot who wants to give 737s a shot. We will hire you, train you, spend endless hours on you, and then cut 90% of you."
A. Does this sound like an effective recruitment strategy?
B. Would you want to fly on this plane?

No, your comments are the ones which sound like shit to me.

P.S. would it kill you to use some correct grammar in your posts?

[radaration]

Geez, I've been following this thread for a while now. It sure is debunking a lot of 'picture-perfect' imagery that's out there about navcan working conditions....or is it just a few select facilities that have it tough?

[SII]

When is the last time you saw WestJet post an ad which read "we are looking for any 200-hr Navajo pilot who wants to give 737s a shot. We will hire you, train you, spend endless hours on you, and then cut 90% of you."
A. Does this sound like an effective recruitment strategy?
B. Would you want to fly on this plane?

I guess the last one would have been the Jazz Cadet program. started cirrca 2008 just wraped up the third ground school

I'm not a commuter but sure I'd fly Jazz

No company can afford to hire 10x the staffing they need, devote every resource possible in an attempt to train them, with the expectation that 90% will be cut.

when you work for free for 3/4 of your training that eases the burden on the employer. also, the other option is to not hire anyone. as far as the targeting the best of the best of the best, I covered that with the shift premium.

[SII]

as far as the grammer, no I won't

[Shadowfax]

So SII would you shut/slow down your company to train the new people?

It takes people to train people. What if you can't spare any people to train the new ones? Do you cut your revenue stream in half (or more) hoping to get a return on that investment? And if it doesn't pan out then what? I don't know but I think the 1 in 10 is an average - and it seems to take about a year to find out Don't know too many business's that would intentionally cut the revenue stream in half (or whatever percentage) on a 10% gamble year after year. Or is there some other business model I am missing out on? Not much point hiring 10 "trainees" if you can't "afford" to train them......of course nobody would mind if the operation was shut down to do the training.

Kinda like changing the wheels of a race car...while it's moving....at speed.

[SII]

Navcanada's retained earnings for 2008 was 1.5 billion dollars, you really think that the money is the issue when you looking at staffing 10 low level positions?

if you think you'd be fucked training people now how fucked will you be when the current employees move on?

[BEFAN5]

Nextgen will save us!

[Shadowfax]

Navcanada's retained earnings for 2008 was 1.5 billion dollars, you really think that the money is the issue when you looking at staffing 10 low level positions?

if you think you'd be fucked training people now how fucked will you be when the current employees move on?

I don't see anyone saying there isn't the money to train them. I think it's more there isn't any people to train them. Again I ask, how do you shut/slow down the operation to train when the return on investment is so low? Is this an acceptable business model? I guess one could throw money at propsective trainees and hope they figure it out....

So the comparison is - if this were an airline, would you reduce your on-line operation revenue stream for 1-2 years to finance "training" with such a low return on investment? (meaning pull pilots off money making flights for training) You can't farm this out and hire ready made pilots with type ratings - it MUST be done all in house. Please feel free to explain how to do it and meet everyone's expectations.

[SII]

it MUST be done all in house. Please feel free to explain how to do it and meet everyone's expectations.

start in the fall as there seems to be no shortage of qualified controllers for shit Wx, the shortage only happens when the Wx is nice. sit the trainee beside C_ _ _ _, if others were half the controller he is you wouldn't be short now. By the time your 8 months in and ready for the shortage again you should be just polishing the rough edges.

As far as farming it out, what makes you think that's not a possibility, you think for the right money you can't bring in a qualified individual, for a 3-5 year contract. I know what your thinking , it's a union you can't do that. You need to remember it's business first and if the union can't staff it the company needs too. Besides, the best controller you have earned his stripes at Heathrow what's to stop a little recruitment at the busier centers around the world? Remember to mention the amount the amount of available overtime.

unless you really believe no one in the world can do what the controllers in YWG can do?

[Valid31]

start in the fall as there seems to be no shortage of qualified controllers for shit Wx, the shortage only happens when the Wx is nice. sit the trainee beside C_ _ _ _, if others were half the controller he is you wouldn't be short now. By the time your 8 months in and ready for the shortage again you should be just polishing the rough edges.

The shortage is always there, it is just more manageable during the fall & winter because fewer people are taking holidays. We start our trainees in the fall for just this reason. And what is with this love for a certain controller?

As far as farming it out, what makes you think that's not a possibility, you think for the right money you can't bring in a qualified individual, for a 3-5 year contract.

There is no such qualified individual. The only person who can train someone in a particular specialty has to be qualified in that specialty, which leaves retirees as the only contract option, and they rarely go out on top of their game. If you have someone teaching based on the "good old days", you end up with trainees unprepared for the current requirements of the job. It is a possibility, but not the most desirable one. And the union does allow for contract employees.

Besides, the best controller you have earned his stripes at Heathrow what's to stop a little recruitment at the busier centers around the world? Remember to mention the amount the amount of available overtime.

Nav Canada hired a number of foreign controllers a few years ago. With the exception of 2, every single one has been run out of WG ACC. Good idea in theory, but the reality is that we ended up with some real shit in terms of quality. If someone is motivated solely by money, then they are not going to make a very good controller. You have to love this job to want to do it every day (you're sure not appreciated by certain dicks on this forum...)
You're Heathrow comment - it's real hard to take you seriously when you say things like this. No offense to anyone in particular, but this is not the case. I wonder where all this man-love for the aussie came from?

unless you really believe no one in the world can do what the controllers in YWG can do?

That's not the case. Our job is not the most difficult in the world, just in the WG ACC. And most of the world is in the same boat as you: you are probably content at your job making a wage that pays the bills, and are unwilling to go for a year without a paycheck while training for a new job with a low probability for success. It is a dicey situation for anyone to undertake, with the exception of students who still live at home (and are generally not equipped to brush their own teeth these days, let alone move airplanes).

Why don't you step up to the plate if you are so confident? All this overtime, training is so easy, the job is so easy, and you could even sit with your man-crush! Maybe then you would be in a better position to comment. At least visit WG TCU so maybe you won't sound like such an ill-informed hater.

[BEFAN5]

May be wrong.. But I do believe I heard a new voice on Departure out of YWG last week.

Maybe we can recruit some of the FAA VFR controllers; they seem to be a little "bored" down there.

[Valid31]

May be wrong.. But I do believe I heard a new voice on Departure out of YWG last week.

There is a new voice, and there will be another new one in a week.

[Shadowfax]

it MUST be done all in house. Please feel free to explain how to do it and meet everyone's expectations.

start in the fall as there seems to be no shortage of qualified controllers for shit Wx, the shortage only happens when the Wx is nice. sit the trainee beside C_ _ _ _, if others were half the controller he is you wouldn't be short now. By the time your 8 months in and ready for the shortage again you should be just polishing the rough edges.

As far as farming it out, what makes you think that's not a possibility, you think for the right money you can't bring in a qualified individual, for a 3-5 year contract. I know what your thinking , it's a union you can't do that. You need to remember it's business first and if the union can't staff it the company needs too.

I'm not an expert here - others feel free to correct/chime in.

1 - what do you define as "shit" wx? Is that shit for the pilots or ATC? Are you saying winter IFR and full vectors (RNP) is better than mixing visuals with TS+?

A - the advertised course lengths are from 18-24 months. Don't see how one could just start in the fall and have a controller by spring (8 months). I think if it were that easy this wouldn't be a discussion.

B - The Union's are responsible for training!?! "if the Union can't staff the company needs to" I do have experience with Unions - be a cold day in hell when the Union's run the shop! Don't get me wrong, they have a role in everything - sometimes even a partnership in the workplace - but they DO NOT run any operation I am familiar with. I do know that some of the agreemente can be onerous - but who makes those agreements? 2 parties - company and Union! Don't like it re-open discussions.

4 - would an airline hire someone back 1-2 years after retirement to train new line pilots? Don't think so. He'd half to re-qualify first - which means you need someone to train him - which is the same damn problem as training anyone new.

I was hoping you had more to offer....

[Valid31]

I'm not an expert here - others feel free to correct/chime in.
1 - what do you define as "shit" wx? Is that shit for the pilots or ATC? Are you saying winter IFR and full vectors (RNP) is better than mixing visuals with TS+?

I think his implication is that as soon as the sun comes out, controllers all stop coming to work (hence the staff shortage). I think that it might be best if we all ignore this useless troll. He is not interested in having a discussion, just spewing shit.

A - the advertised course lengths are from 18-24 months. Don't see how one could just start in the fall and have a controller by spring (8 months). I think if it were that easy this wouldn't be a discussion.

There is a large portion of generic training, and once students complete that they move into specialty specific training. We try to have this start in the fall with the goal of having the students training on the floor before summer. However, they will not necessarily be qualified before the summer (typically they will check out in the fall).

B - The Union's are responsible for training!?! "if the Union can't staff the company needs to" I do have experience with Unions - be a cold day in hell when the Union's run the shop! Don't get me wrong, they have a role in everything - sometimes even a partnership in the workplace - but they DO NOT run any operation I am familiar with. I do know that some of the agreemente can be onerous - but who makes those agreements? 2 parties - company and Union! Don't like it re-open discussions.

The union does not control training, but the implication was that the union would not allow a contract employee for the purposes of teaching students. Again, as with just about everything else SII has said, this is incorrect.

[SII]

but the implication was that the union would not allow a contract employee for the purposes of teaching students

not just training if you can staff that position through hiring and internal transfers contract from the outside to simply staff that spot.

I do however appreciate you catching the rest of your co-workers up with the discution

[Valid31]

I do however appreciate you catching the rest of your co-workers up with the discution

Either
1. you speak french, or
2. you can't spell discussion.

Why do I get the feeling that your logbook is written entirely in crayon?

[Shadowfax]

but the implication was that the union would not allow a contract employee for the purposes of teaching students

not just training if you can staff that position through hiring and internal transfers contract from the outside to simply staff that spot.

I do however appreciate you catching the rest of your co-workers up with the discution

WHAT? Chicken and the egg? How do you suggest they train anyone if they can't free up the staff? Do you think that other controllers just "slide over"? 10 seconds of research reveals the Union agreement doesn't seem to prohibit much of anything. We're done here I think.

[SII]

Why do I get the feeling that your logbook is written entirely in crayon?

wrong only one or two entries, and they were both after I got my A's so no one will ever see it anyway

[sakism]

So I get the impression from everyone except SII that training enough people to staff YWG properly is actually impossible to do.

What a wonderful way to run a business.

Perhaps SII does not have the answers necessary to rectify this extremely embarrassing situation, but at least he is trying to come up with ideas. With the length of time this has been occuring, NavCanada itself is obviously not.

[kevenv]

So I get the impression from everyone except SII that training enough people to staff YWG properly is actually impossible to do.

What a wonderful way to run a business.

Perhaps SII does not have the answers necessary to rectify this extremely embarrassing situation, but at least he is trying to come up with ideas. With the length of time this has been occuring, NavCanada itself is obviously not.

So why don't you complain to NavCanada directly? Do you really think complaining on here to the controllers is going to help? I know, it's way easier to complain here and to toss out plans for saving the company further staffing embarrassment than it is to call the company directly and complain about the level of service and suggest ways to increase the staffing levels that they may not have considered. In case you weren't aware, the company doesn't give a rats ass what the controllers think. And another big surprise...who do you thing runs us? The airlines of course. The BoD is full of reps from the airlines and airline industry. They like low costs. Surprised?

[sakism]

Do you really think complaining on here to the controllers is going to help? I know, it's way easier to complain here and to toss out plans for saving the company further staffing embarrassment than it is to call the company directly and complain about the level of service and suggest ways to increase the staffing levels that they may not have considered.

I was under the impression that the purpose of the forum was to discuss issues which concern us.

And another big surprise...who do you thing runs us? The airlines of course. The BoD is full of reps from the airlines and airline industry. They like low costs. Surprised?

And there, perhaps, is the root of the problem. The large airlines are not affected by the staffing shortage - the issues come with smaller companies trying to do training (or even just filing VFR) and with GA aircraft being unable to enter the terminal area of one of Canada's largest cities.

[kevenv]

(Edited to remove my head banging against the wall)

Why don't you, and every other pilot/airline/flight school who feels that they are getting poor service, contact NavCanada directly and complain? And if it happens again tomorrow, call again. And again and again. Because believe it or not, unless the you, the users complain, nothing will change. End of story. Let's start a new thread now.

[wenchie]

As someone entering the process in YWG (assessment in June), this has been an exhilarating read! What a shark tank!