ACPA Implodes !

[accumulous]

WestJet is the quintessential Marketing Package.

Modern thinking, open cheerful communication in the Management/Employee continuum, all pulling for the Common Good, shiny new airplanes, great routes, sense of humor, and cool business smarts. The ticket buyer loves it, eats it up, and casts nothing but aspersion at our vicious little tooth and nail Rottweiler Festival.

Here at AC we have a legacy carrier with a stiff upper lip, massively top heavy, pilots literally raping one another’s brains out over seniority and every other imaginable lost cause anyone can possibly conceive, up to their foreheads in lawsuits and DFR’s, hanging one another in public, getting sucked straight into a black hole of concessionary negotiations borne of being played like a cheap fiddle by managers with about a hundred times more cranial capacity than our average pilot who firmly believes that the horrendously misguided self-concept of being God’s gift to aviation extrapolates into an ability to grasp all things commercial as well.

You can’t put a rancid bandaid over the scar tissue of a Thoroughly Confused Pilot Culture and call it an LCC.

In marketing terms, LCC simply says loud and clear that the rest of the AC operation didn’t quite cut it so we’re going to make ourselves out to be the cheaper Cathouse Version of what WestJet already is in its Pure Entirety.

Take a supermodel, slap some bottom of the line Zellers makeup all over it and stick that in the newspaper for sale.

LCC. Low Cost Cutthroat.

WestJet simply says, hey, we’re already that, and as everybody already knows, A Lot Nicer.

LCC won’t work in a million years. Take a whole bunch of pissed off in-fighting pilots in an airline, pry their hands off each others' throats just long enough to stuff half of them into the spun-off Army/Navy store of a cut-rate operation, and the only thing you’ve got is a bunch of confused second tier people competing against the rest of the confused people in the mainline.

It's just a poor way of trying to break up a fight.

It’s Marketing Madness.

What’s really needed is the kind of Corporate Leadership that can rally an entirely new and effective Culture and the kind of Pilot Leadership that can respond to and be part of that forward thinking Culture.

We have neither form of leadership.

We have Special Interest Middling Seniority Groups hell bent on frying anybody in their way, and for that reason we are well and truly screwed.

[Rockie]

No. There is still demand for premium traffic. No company can be all things to all people. That is why they re-brand when attempting to enter a different market segment. Think of us as the HBC. Zellers is their low cost.

You're missing my point Fanblade. If Air Canada were to start a LCC from the ground up and make it a division of the overall company then it would be a LCC. But they aren't doing that. They are taking some airplanes and rebranding them by paying the crews less than mainline with draconian and totally unrealistic work rules (No food, and no delaying a flight to get some. One hour to check in, wash up, fall asleep, get up, shower, prepare your uniform, and eat the meal they don't provide on the airplane...no delay remember). But it is still the rest of Air Canada supporting that airplane, and that's where the cost is. There is no LCC. There is the illusion of LCC.

It is a scam.

[777longhaul]

For Fan Blade

Thanks for your points of view.

As you stated, you are new to AC. After you have been there for a few decades, or more, I hope your resume, will include time served in the what ever union(s), are running the show for that time period. If...you have extensive, and actual experience in commerce, it, would be a very good time to offer your services to acpa, maybe, treasurer?

You have all the theory, but life doesnt run on theory, it only starts there. So....put in a gallant effort to make the life of an AC pilot better, by, lifting up the issues, not selling them out, on the first pass of pressure. You will need far more experience, than you have right now in life, and at AC to understand, that your point of view has been tried many times in the past. It is normal, to see and feel what you are experiencing right now, at this point in your pilot career. Don't fold, and don't swallow every bit of doom that comes from the volcano on the top floor of management. It is their job to snow you, and to make you point your anger, fear, frustration, etc. etc. at your fellow pilots. That has always been the mode of operation, and it has always, worked in the past. Maybe....just maybe, this time the pilots will unite, and stand strong for what they are worth, and what they have done, and continue to do, every time they go flying, everytime, as failure, is not an option.

And, no I won't go down, just to spite Milton, and crowd. They are masters at screwing companies, and employee's out of their futures, their pensions, and their self worth. (they are the Lorenzo's of the North) You do not have enough time to have seen all the masters pull their tricks. Hopefully, you will have a long pilot career, and look back on this time, as a great learning curve, in the airline world, that has many rotating, masters, and a very long line of truly dedicated pilots.

The pilots are not the problem, so don't buy into it Ever ask yourself, how come CR and crowd never use Southwest's pay scales, working conditions etc. The acpa fing road show used CR slide show, not even their own composure of information.

As pilots, we can lead, follow, or just get out of the way.

[Localizer]

Respectfully Fanblade ..

You're thinking from the wrong side of the table. AC management will take care of the airline .. isn't that why their bonus are through the roof? Pilots need to look out for pilots and move our interest along with the industry forward.

You seem to be a fish biting CR's hook.

[Fanblade]

Respectfully Fanblade ..

You're thinking from the wrong side of the table. AC management will take care of the airline .. isn't that why their bonus are through the roof? Pilots need to look out for pilots and move our interest along with the industry forward.

You seem to be a fish biting CR's hook.

Localizer,

I am finding this conversation very enlightening from a labor perspective. Employees who are at risk, but refuse to help themselves by working with their company to secure their own future. The very same employees that have the most to loose and the most to gain if change works.

CCAA in 2003. Exit in 2004. Nothing was really changed. Two profitable years. When excluding foreign exchange no profit at all since 2006. Near miss with CCAA in 2009. Now 9 Billion in debt.

Where do you think the financing for the 787 is going to come from? Where will it take AC's debt level? The 777 deliveries were partly responsible for the near miss in 2009. AC couldn't get reasonable financing so it used cash, which drove free cash to dangerous levels. then of course the credit crisis happened. We are always one sneeze away. Even today.

AC will not get reasonable financing for the 787 considering the balance sheet we have today. It is worse than when the 777 deliveries took place and we are acquiring 2-3 times more fins.

This industry is inherently tight on the cost front because of the very small margins the operations produce. A 1% shift either way often can make the difference between failure and success. There is no room in this business for any cost that your competition doesn't carry. Absolutely none. That applies to everything from fuel, to employee costs, to financing.

Westjet understands this and has embraced this as part of their culture. However even they have very poor margins. Great for the aviation industry but poor when considering (ROI) return on investment from other industries.

Gentlemen, I will try to say this as subtly as possible since it is an open forum. You screwed up in CCAA. Well maybe not so subtle. You took pay cuts to protect something that no one else was trying to protect, so it got you nothing but a pay cut. Then nothing but the same old crisis to crisis. At the same time other employee groups managed to stay well above industry standard costs. Not just wages, but kept very expensive benefits, skilled workers we compete with don't even have, such as a pension. Essentially the cost disparity issue was never addressed and so sustainability never really had a chance.

We are not the problem wrt to cost. We are the problem however if we stand in the way of managements attempt to get all costs in line with industry standard. I know that statement is going to piss of Jazz employees. It is going to piss off FA's. It will piss off gate agents. It will piss off baggage handlers. It will even piss off pilots who don't want to give an inch.

However if you want some stability. If you want the pension you have been expecting. If you want the career you hoped for, you had better get the hell out of the way of managements attempt at correcting cost issues that are way above industry standard and make AC uncompetitive.

[SII]

and yet management never misses a bonus. Is CR's 5 million guaranteed if you go into CCAA?

[SilentMajority]

[quote="777longhaul"

As you stated, you are new to AC. After you have been there for a few decades, or more..... [/quote]

Fanblade...

From where I sit you are hitting the nail squarely on the head. After 37 years of watching this company (and industry) cycle from feast to famine, it is time once again to pay attention to the forces that are changing our business.

It is interesting to note that since the 70's, each and every time "the CEO" came out with a dire warning that things were not well and that changes were required.....all of us (myself included) took this as just another negotiating tactic designed once again to reign us in...so that they could further line their executive pockets.

The painful truth........each and every time they were telling it as it really was....that we did need to change "the business plan" to adapt and survive. Unfortunately it was our inherent distrust of management that caused the confrontation and disbelief which in turn blinded us to the changes that were needed to keep our healthy paychecks and pensions alive.

I, for one, believe that CR is currently giving us the straight goods. Yes the LCC needs a lot of tweaking but that is what collective bargaining is all about.

IMO without some serious changes in the way AC performs it's business....another trip through CCAA is just a few years away.

[Fanblade]

I, for one, believe that CR is currently giving us the straight goods. Yes the LCC needs a lot of tweaking but that is what collective bargaining is all about.

SilentMajority,

sometimes it takes an obnoxious newbie to stir the pot a little. I'm a little reluctant to do this on the AC forum using my name. I might never get another leg!

Your points about distrust are very much part of the problem. In many ways rightly so. Just look what was done to AC post CCAA. No one was trying to make a viable airline. It was all about removing wealth. However employees must remember they helped drive the direction. Business's direction is to grow to produce wealth. Companies get monetized because they are broken and can't be fixed. They can not produce wealth so instead owners decide to remove value rather than creating it.

That is what happened to you during the middle of CCAA. Refusing to move to DC plans for new hires made the only individual with the idea of growing AC, and creating value, walk away. Why? He didn't see an ability to grow and create wealth. That left you the three headed dog who knew the same thing but didn't care because they were there to extract not create value.

Why do I mention this? Because one of the architects is back. That is creating distrust. However I would like to point out he was also the point man for the value creating investor and walked when the value creating investor did. Remember also Cerberous was never the preferred option by management. They were just all that was left when employees stood in the way of any chance of value creation.

Today there is nothing left in this company as a result. The only thing left is to create value, or shut it down. There is nothing to extract. Meaning there is only one direction for CR. Create value. Start over. At the moment he is offering us a way to work with him, a way to create value that has very little impact directed at us pilots.

Think about it

LCC work rules aside. They need fixing.

[c170b53]

This place needs a big make over and everyone is well aware of it. For those new to this market it’s easy to get sucked in by the glossy sales brochure but you’ll want to see the all the blueprints as the last Reno turned the place into a Mildew Manor.
Management ‘s answer to increase efficiencies by contracting out internal work has only crippled the operation and increased lower management workload. Our inefficiencies begin with top management. Lots of vision, with no nuts and bolts is a no finish thus their plan to create a LCC out of arguably the Grand Station of dysfunction junctions will end in another train wreck.
Want to save money and give the brass a reality cheque? How about this: all management business travel is done in the back of the bus. Maybe it will reduce the business trips to vacation destinations in prime time and get those ears closer to the ground all year long. Who knows maybe some close up exposure to the operation will change their bent on impressing on their staff that they are merely a number. And that’s the real issue here as they have proven to everyone they can talk the talk on team but are content to take the Limo rather than having some experience with the walk.
Sadly we realize it’s our company's M.O.... Look at the contract, come up with new interpretations or implement changes in conflict with language and force unions to fight everything in front of an arbitrator rather than resolve anything through negotiations. In essence, gum up the process with a net effect of: frustration, emotional and financial drain on employees and their unions.
There’s a need for new contracts, starting right at the top. Too many employees see the restructuring plan as just another flip by someone who has no intentions of living here.
Nevertheless amongst all this negativity I urge everyone to not give-up. Albeit there's indiscriminate anger, understand the strain you coworkers are under and see past their present frustration. Everyday the company survives often by the extra efforts of the employees trying to survive the present, hoping for better days. There is great people here doing the work.

[Localizer]

Fanblade .. I agree this is an interesting conversation.

Personally .. I don't see the LCC venture working for AC. Its been tried and failed .. not to mention the competition that AC would face. Transat, Sunwing, Thomas Cook have a long history in this market and making it work .. besides that I believe they have much lower cost to play with then AC, no matter how much you "tweak" the present contract language.

I don't have a degree in commerce, but I think this is a bad move for the company and the pilots. At the end of the day the pilots are the ones with the most to lose if this doesn't work, and what you're being asked to give up isn't worth what your getting in return ..

[777longhaul]

The AC brand, is a world wide icon.

When we are talking the percentages, of Westjet, AT, etc, it is based against AC. The acutal seats, are what you want to look at. AC is larger than all the others combined, by a long shot. Using percentages, was a joke, only an idot would not realize that a 900% increase in something, is just that. If you had 1000 passengers, and now you have 900% more, big deal. The percentage charts were a piss poor attempt at coverning a concessionary contract, again.

The AC branding, with loyalty plans, and Star Alliance plans are second to none.

One of the most important things to always, remember, the Canadian Government, still controlls AC. If, anyone tried to buy control of AC they can not. The Air Canada Act, prevents anyone from taking control of AC. It also drives the costs, of above and below the wing at AC much higher than anyone else in Canada. So the employees can work for free, and AC would still be an expensive coporation to operate.

The Polictical stance of AC, is a very important national icon, to all of Canada. If you add up all the other carriers, they dont even come close to the amount of freight and passengers that AC carries EVERY 24 hours in Canada, and other parts of the world. The Government, can not do with out AC. So, regardless of the paperworld, the political world will keep AC going no matter what. They will make sure they tweak everything in the background, just to keep AC going. That is why the pension issue has been interfered with by the government. They dont want AC to be able to run to CCAA due to pension, that is not what the government wants. The government has all the strings, they pull them, AC management dances and acts out their tune, and inturn, we are all on the next levels of performance, as the strings are pulled.

The political presence, of AC is mandatory in Socailized Canada. There is no competition, the various governments made sure of that, when they let AC push everyone out of business.

Yes, AC needs to change, but, it will only change to the level that the Canadian Government wants it to. Will AC disappear, NO. The revenue stream in the Canadian economy is enourmous. Take every dollar that AC produces, and times it by the turn over rate, and you are talking in the Billions every month. Do you think, for one moment, that the Canadian government, is going to strand 60,000 passengers everyday of the week, while millions of tons of mail, cargo, food, sit in warehouses? NOT. The government needs AC, the country needs AC and that is one of the most important overlays a person needs to use, when looking at the contracts for AC. The LCC issue, which is one of many in this current TA, is a total cluster of complete randomness. There is no game plan, it is just a quick shot at another ZIP or TANGO. What the hell, they cant do it, never could and never will.

If Westjet was 5 times their current size, they would still not out weigh AC. So how is the government, of a socalizied country, that is TOTALLY dependent on reliable air travel, going to shut the company down in CCAA?

Westjet, Jazz etc are all great companies, and they work very hard and produce everyday, just like the employees at AC. The pilots at AC do not need to get raped again, just to support the inept management, and government of the day.

Solution you say:

Get rid of the Air Canada act. Let AC move out of Quebec to Alberta, where the taxes are realistic on a large conglomerate like AC, let new owners take control of AC, pushing the Canadain Government out of the back room deals etc. Do you think that is going to happen in Canada?

So, until it does, the employees will always be the target finance problem. Work for free, AC and the Canadian Government will still want more.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade .. I agree this is an interesting conversation.

Personally .. I don't see the LCC venture working for AC. Its been tried and failed .. not to mention the competition that AC would face. Transat, Sunwing, Thomas Cook have a long history in this market and making it work .. besides that I believe they have much lower cost to play with then AC, no matter how much you "tweak" the present contract language.

I don't have a degree in commerce, but I think this is a bad move for the company and the pilots. At the end of the day the pilots are the ones with the most to loose if this doesn't work, and what you're being asked to give up isn't worth what your getting in return ..

Localizer,

You obviously think AC is fine running along the way it is. What we are getting in return? How about a job? How about some stability? How about avoiding another CCAA? How about pension security?

There seems to be a very large cassam between those who grasp the reality of our situation, and the average union member. The TA tells a story of an MEC and Negots committee that gets it. The lynching that followed reveals a membership that doesn't. Someone needs to wear the communication problem.

This is not a "tweaked" business plan. This is a redo from the ground up.

Tango was just more seats spread across the same cost structure. Failed. Why? The math didn't add up to profit

Zip was more seats spread across a slightly less cost base. Failed. Why? The math didn't add up to profit.

LCC from scratch? Different ball game all together. There are many example of it proving profitable as it allows legacy airlines to move away from legacy costs.

I agree with you, if this doesn't get started from the ground up, it won't work. c170b53 post above only solidifies the point.

I have to tell you I am more than a little uncomfortable with the concept of employees telling the company how to run the business. Tell them it must be us flying the fins, yes. Dictating business decisions? That is legacy thinking. It is laughable. We are far far to conservative of a group to be good entrepreneurs. Lets leave it to the real ones shall we.

I'll keep this simple. Get the hell out of the way of managements attempt to make this place profitable. We will hurt ourselves in the process.

[yycflyguy]

Dictating business decisions? That is legacy thinking. It is laughable. We are far far to conservative of a group to be good entrepreneurs. Lets leave it to the real ones shall we.

I'll keep this simple. Get the hell out of the way of managements attempt to make this place profitable. We will hurt ourselves in the process.

So where does defending historical WAWCON and Scope provisions in a CBA come into play. Upper management certainly has made this place profitable. The problem is that it is tied to executive salaries and bonuses while our conditions are eroded with each trip to the negotiating table. Certainly profitable for RM et al and now CR et al. CR wont be around in 10 years. I will be.

Company wants a LCC? Super-Duper! Go for it. Mainline pilots flying mainline airplanes and mainline WAWCON. Pilot salaries are not the problem, never have been. Let me say this again; Pilot salaries are not the problem!!! Air Canada operating budget is around $10.5 Biiiiiillion while pilot payroll is just over $400 miiiiilllion. Salaries are responsible for around 4.5% of total costs. You want to trim the fat? Go after overbloated management departments, fixed infrastructure costs, FA/CSRs/Ground handling that make close to 6 figures yet do not hold a professional licence in their back pocket. Training takes around 6 weeks to replace them.

Now let's do some math on the fuel hedging that upper management royally screwed up on. For every $1 increase in WTI the fuel cost to AC goes up around $25 million per annum. Management hedged between 25 and 30% at $10-$15 ABOVE what WTI was trading at. That lost the company between $100 and $200 Miiiiilliion IN ONE YEAR! Or about 50% of the total pilot payroll in 2009. You want me to get out of the way of these guys?

This latest "lynching" is a membership finally speaking out against divisive, concessionary contracts and a MEC that is TOTALLY disconnected from the membership it was elected to represent.

[the original tony]

everyone has a few points right. To compare us to WJ,
get rid of all types but 1. Remove our pension completely. Then we can begin
to start a level playing field. To even mention the pilots pay as a problem is
out to lunch.
But.... A csm doing the job of a self serve kiosk and threatening to strike Is a f'ing joke.
You guys need a raise??? The pension alone makes me steam. Then Fa's that can become service directors at the whim of a move up need a raise. Why not??
Bring labour cost to where they belong and you are in the right direction. CUPE won't budge on anything??? If I remember correctly good old Buzz wouldn't move on shit for the autoworkers, and that turned out great for all. People that are replaceable in the same amount of time it takes to board a plane shouldn't be threatening work action. The most useless groups make the loudest noise and have the most amount of pull, utterly amazing.
If ever to bring in contract workers, mobile ticket scanners, and let the rest walk. No more worrying about all the groups cause they sure as hell don't care if we get screwed.
So proud to state they are ready to strike as soon as they are legal to in the summer. F up the busy travel season, that'll really help fund the company you uneducated apes.
Did it ever occur to any of these troglodytes that their job is gone with no company?I'm sure there are a plethora of other jobs offering the benefits of an id checker.......
I'm sure westjets Fa's have the benefits ours do too, sounds like raise material to me.
Sound a little harsh??? Well to be in the position of a pilot and what we have done to get to this point career wise and have the unskilled threatening to slow shit down more???
Not good.... With several friends just hired in the last spree I hope to God this doesn't translate to layoffs. Again the bottom takes it for the top.

Tony.

[Fanblade]

Now let's do some math on the fuel hedging that upper management royally screwed up on. For every $1 increase in WTI the fuel cost to AC goes up around $25 million per annum. Management hedged between 25 and 30% at $10-$15 ABOVE what WTI was trading at. That lost the company between $100 and $200 Miiiiilliion IN ONE YEAR! Or about 50% of the total pilot payroll in 2009. You want me to get out of the way of these guys?

This latest "lynching" is a membership finally speaking out against divisive, concessionary contracts and a MEC that is TOTALLY disconnected from the membership it was elected to represent.

YYCflyguy,

The above was Brewer. He got fired with most of his management team as a result.

I agree that pilot costs are not the problem. We do become the problem however when we use scope to indirectly prevent management from addressing cost that are not in line with industry standard.

I also agree with the total disconnect between union and membership.

Mistake # 1. They have done an absolutely shameful job of making sure the membership was informed about our reality. How can so many people believe nothing is wrong when the company almost failed only 20 months ago? When there has been no profit in 5 years? When the company is once again approaching 10B in debt. Where are wage increases going to come from? Someone needs to wear this disconnect. Clearly the union was in tune, parts of it might be more accurate, but did not make sure the membership was.

I keep hearing the unions claiming they made sacrifices to save the company. The truth is they didn't. They made sacrifices so someone could take 2B. The biggest contributors to the poor millionaires charity foundation were the pilots. The reality is that a true recovery and progress toward sustainability was never going to start until the 3 headed dog left the building. He's is gone. Now is not pay back time. Now is the beginning of recovery.

Why is everyone so out to lunch with respect to the financial condition of the company we work for? I'm new. I'd like to know. Why? Your life hinges on it. What has happened to the thought process within the employee group to be so far removed from a realistic perspective of their employer?

Mistake # 2. The union chose to create divisions not the company. The company doesn't care where the money goes. Just that it stays in line with the budget constraints within the business plan. How the money is divided is the business of the union. Who chose to boost pension MPU's while agreeing to new hires on a DC pension, and a possible pension cut in 2014 and 2017 for the rest? Even while boosting who's pre merger pension? Who agreed to an LCC with different WAWCON for those undoubtedly at the bottom?

To be clear I am not in favor of this TA. The negots committee seems to have gotten the correct picture of what should be done, that I applaud, but then decided to take that reality and instead of creating an even, sustainable solution, they insulated themselves from the changes and said hell with everyone else. I'm not applauding that at all.

Get rid of the hell with everyone else part.

My message is simple. Don't stand in the way of management bringing costs in line with industry standard. Doing so is like shooting one self in the foot. Get rid of the hell with everyone else part of the proposed TA and move forward.

[yycflyguy]

... company almost failed only 20 months ago? When there has been no profit in 5 years?

Really? You bought into the "pension crisis" that was manufactured by the company and sold by the MEC with a ringing endorsement? With market corrections the deficit is well on its way to being eliminated. Club loans at 17% interest? The mafia gives better loans than what was negotiated.

When there has been no profit in 5 years?

Say again, over? Profitable in 2006, 2007 and 2010.

The union chose to create divisions not the company.

Partially true. The company has driven so many wedges and divisions into our CBA over the past 12 years that we are chasing our own tail. The company brought it to the table to break the union. We accepted it.

Who chose to boost pension MPU's while agreeing to new hires on a DC pension, and a possible pension cut in 2014 and 2017 for the rest?

Agreed. 100% That is why you see the revolt today. The peasants are not happy with this monarchy.

Get rid of the hell with everyone else part.

Impossible. If a true LCC model is to be followed, look at Southwest. Trimmed management, FAs/CSRs and hourly wage ground handlers. Their pilots are the best paid in the industry.

The company wants an LCC? Super-duper! Go for it. I will not agree to one red cent less than what the current rates are.

[pistonring]

if the Government would release Air Canada from the Air Canada Public Participation Act then maybe we could actually compete in this messed up aviation industry...

[Fanblade]

When there has been no profit in 5 years?

Say again, over? Profitable in 2006, 2007 and 2010.

Flyguy. I am not suggesting low cost equals low pilot wages. I am suggesting the opposite. The chances of getting paid your worth is greater when everyone is paid their worth and the company you work for is profitable.

I should have clarified my statement on AC's lack of profitability. Although it apparently made you look. Good.

It is common practice when trying to quickly assess profitability to take only the operating profit/loss and subtract from that number the cost of borrowing. That number is a raw reflection of profitability in the core business. It strips out all one time gains and losses and looks solely at how the operations performed. Using this metric quickly pulls out buried warning signs.

AC has not made a profit flying aircraft since 2006. Even in 2006 it was slim.

Best regard Fanblade

[yyz monkey]

Salaries are responsible for around 4.5% of total costs. You want to trim the fat? Go after overbloated management departments, fixed infrastructure costs, FA/CSRs/Ground handling that make close to 6 figures yet do not hold a professional licence in their back pocket.

The most expensive position in the Airports & Cargo operation makes a weekly rate of $1143.18 ($59445.36/yr before taxes). That's a 37.5 hour week (plus 2.5 hours in unpaid lunches).

I'm not trying to say that there aren't rampies that make close to six figures a year, there more than likely are. But they aren't doing it solely based upon what the contract pays (Leads top out at $977.13/wk after two years of service, Station Attendants at $887.94/wk after nine). You can bet they're picking up a ton of cash shift trades or a ton of overtime to do it (and I'd wager the same for CSRs & FAs). They're earning those six figures, working hard for it - it's not like they're doing it on a years worth of 40 hour work weeks.

You might want to get some facts about our respective contracts before you go throwing us under the bus.

[torx]

Fanblade, for a new or junior Air Canada employee as you previously stated, you seem very knowledgeable of the airline industry. Incredibly strong business sense and direction. Almost like a 20 year CPA or CA veteran. It begs to ask, however...where did you come from and why are you here now?

[Morry Bund]

For me, the turning point in this whole saga was not the fact that my elected and appointed representatives came up with some creative new alternatives to deal with issues that confront us all. I encourage that. It was the specific combination of alternatives chosen and the methodology used to sell them that got me scratching my head.

Using Air Canada's PowerPoint presentation at our own Road Shows to sell us on a package that reduces our wages and working conditions while at the same time giving our CEO and his minions record wage increases and bonuses was a new low in the scope of our collective bargaining, from what I have seen. And it caught us all broadside. Who represents whom? And to what purpose?

Collective bargaining, as I understand it, is an adversarial system. When you have the union Executive selling the company's agenda, something is askew. And something must be changed, even if it means starting over, from the beginning.

[chatman]

if the Government would release Air Canada from the Air Canada Public Participation Act then maybe we could actually compete in this messed up aviation industry...

Ask the guys in Maintenance about the Air Canada Act. It no longer applies.
Aveos handles the heavy maintenace now in Wpg and Yul.

As for wages...It always boogles my mind that a licensed mechanic changing engines, flight controls, etc makes just over 30 bucks an hour..And a guy that installs carpet makes over 28 an hour with absolutely no responsiblity or risk.
But then looks who runs the IAM unskilled labour (rampies).

A lot of the unskilled (rampies, cleaners, ticket agents, t and f, stores, ) would be hard pressed to find anything else in the real world out there comparable in wage, unaccountable lax work environment and benefits.

[yycflyguy]

Salaries are responsible for around 4.5% of total costs. You want to trim the fat? Go after overbloated management departments, fixed infrastructure costs, FA/CSRs/Ground handling that make close to 6 figures yet do not hold a professional licence in their back pocket.

The most expensive position in the Airports & Cargo operation makes a weekly rate of $1143.18 ($59445.36/yr before taxes). That's a 37.5 hour week (plus 2.5 hours in unpaid lunches).

I'm not trying to say that there aren't rampies that make close to six figures a year, there more than likely are. But they aren't doing it solely based upon what the contract pays (Leads top out at $977.13/wk after two years of service, Station Attendants at $887.94/wk after nine). You can bet they're picking up a ton of cash shift trades or a ton of overtime to do it (and I'd wager the same for CSRs & FAs). They're earning those six figures, working hard for it - it's not like they're doing it on a years worth of 40 hour work weeks.

Thanks for proving my point. Over 1000 Service Directors making close to six figures (confirmed by my conversations with them). Leads making close to six figures to watch them arrive late to marshal in an aircraft that is holding off the gate for 20 minutes.

The company wants to start an LCC? Super-Duper. As a pilot, I will not accept separate working conditions and a separate wage scale to finance the airlines distorted payroll.

[yycflyguy]

Using Air Canada's PowerPoint presentation at our own Road Shows to sell us on a package that reduces our wages and working conditions while at the same time giving our CEO and his minions record wage increases and bonuses was a new low in the scope of our collective bargaining, from what I have seen. And it caught us all broadside. Who represents whom? And to what purpose?

I thought the exact same thing. Announcing a $5 million retainer in the middle of union negotiations was an arrogant slap in the face.

As for wages...It always boogles my mind that a licensed mechanic changing engines, flight controls, etc makes just over 30 bucks an hour..And a guy that installs carpet makes over 28 an hour with absolutely no responsiblity or risk.
But then looks who runs the IAM unskilled labour (rampies).

A lot of the unskilled (rampies, cleaners, ticket agents, t and f, stores, ) would be hard pressed to find anything else in the real world out there comparable in wage, unaccountable lax work environment and benefits.

Not very politically correct, but bang on.

You get what you negotiate. You must admit that their union does a good job of selling their services as a vital component in the delivery of our service. Pilots? Well, not so much.

[vic777]

You get what you negotiate. You must admit that their union does a good job of selling their services as a vital component in the delivery of our service. Pilots? Well, not so much.

Spot on. Remember when our Union President told the World that, "Air Canada Pilots are overpaid"? What is the fallout from that?