Did Jazz just poop the bed?

[OpenDoor]

AC low cost...?

ere comes the culture shift

[gtanorth]

http://business.financialpost.com/tag/air-georgian/


Final Answer to the post ------ YES

Jazz did poop the bed

[teacher]

Actually the reality is that AC by pushing Jazz away is creating ANOTHER competitor that can blow them out of the water cost wise. As for ACPA is affected this is the first step in lowering the bar on wages across the board both at the tier 1 and tier 2 levels.

[Inverted2]

Maybe ACPA pooped the bed. All those Embrarers south of the border have "EXPRESS" or something similar painted on them and are not flown by mainline pilots, although they look just like the mainline planes. I'm sure Calins master plan involves sliding all the Embrarers down to tier 2 and all of the Jazz 37/50 seat Dash 8s to tier 3, thus lowering the wage bar even further.

[gtanorth]

Nope - Jazz pooped the bed! Everything else is just noise. BUT like the kids book says - everybody poops! It will be how Jazz cleans it up that will determine their future.

[teacher]

They'll all be painted in "Robin Egg Blue" so ACPA will still think the Embraers are operated by mainline

[Beefitarian]

I remember as a kid, before Westjet got going, my family buying a plane ticket between Vancouver and Toronto - and back in the late 80's it cost an arm and a leg. Today, that same flight, first class would probably be half (even in 2011's inflation adjusted dollars). There was a reason why the family never visited, it would cost a small fortune to fly anyone. So, we didn't. Today, there's a lot more planes in the sky and prices allow people to travel more affordably. The size of the Canadian population has not really changed much though. The market grew because it became affordable, because of competition. The number of pilots employed also grew.

And pilots were known to make a higher than average wage.

I think if you had to chose which company to invest in, Walmart and Toyota are your good bets. Safeway and GM, historically aren't nearly as good.

Historically? There must be a new meaning for that word I'm not privy to.

Ultimately, the share price of a company demonstrates its financial health and prospects of future profitability. Whether you like Safeway or not, their formula for business success can't hold a candle to Walmart's. It's great that you like their service etc. (although my experience was the opposite) at the end of the day their service can be amazing but if they don't make money it doesn't matter.

The hooker with STDs is better as long as she's less expensive and has a bigger line up. I'm no America hater but I wish you could trust the groceries you buy, knowing they are not laced with things that should not be in Food. That problem is growing worse everyday and Walmart is leading the pack along with the restaraunt in their stores.

[iflyforpie]

I remember as a kid, before Westjet got going, my family buying a plane ticket between Vancouver and Toronto - and back in the late 80's it cost an arm and a leg. Today, that same flight, first class would probably be half (even in 2011's inflation adjusted dollars). There was a reason why the family never visited, it would cost a small fortune to fly anyone. So, we didn't. Today, there's a lot more planes in the sky and prices allow people to travel more affordably. The size of the Canadian population has not really changed much though. The market grew because it became affordable, because of competition. The number of pilots employed also grew.

And pilots were known to make a higher than average wage.

I don't think WestJet pilots are much worse off than Pacific Western Airlines pilots were back in the 1980s (PWA being the closest comparison to WestJet). The problem with PWA is that they flew into many marginally profitable airports that WestJet currently avoids (Cranbrook, Kamloops, Castlegar, and Penticton for example just here in BC) and they were saddled with a ton of debt while trying to take on Air Canada and Canadian Pacific on all levels.

WestJet simply doesn't have the liabilities that PWA had; and those same liabilities continue to haunt Air Canada to this day...

[fingersmac]

Ultimately, the share price of a company demonstrates its financial health and prospects of future profitability.

Bear Stearns trading at $170 a share in January 2007 must have been a sure sign of 'its financial health and prospects of future profitability'.

[Beefitarian]

Here here, fingers. breX anyone?

Stuff.

I don't think WestJet pilots are much worse off than Pacific Western Airlines pilots were back in the 1980s (PWA being the closest comparison to WestJet). The problem with PWA is that they flew into many marginally profitable airports that WestJet currently avoids (Cranbrook, Kamloops, Castlegar, and Penticton for example just here in BC) and they were saddled with a ton of debt while trying to take on Air Canada and Canadian Pacific on all levels.

WestJet simply doesn't have the liabilities that PWA had; and those same liabilities continue to haunt Air Canada to this day...

I would like to ensure you don't think I was the one that brought WestJet in there.

I do not think they are the reason the wages dropped even if they started the fire, because their business model is a particular case. I think they probably do as well or better than the Jazz pilots but I'm only speculating.

They may have got the ball rolling for greyhound, jetsgo, Canada 3000, zoom etc. however I suggest they are not the same kind of animal.

I mentioned them before in this thread because they are to a certain degree trying to be an employee owned entity with the heavy stock options. If you look at all their starting pilots they played a game of roulette that ended up with them winning big time. I doubt you'll see that again. When they started all the AC people laughed at them for making poverty wages to captain for WestJet. Skip ahead a decade and they became millionares while the AC guys stopped laughing and were forced to take all sorts of concessions to absorb Canadian.

[Hawkerflyer]

http://business.financialpost.com/tag/air-georgian/


Final Answer to the post ------ YES

Jazz did poop the bed

*like*

[iflyforpie]

I would like to ensure you don't think I was the one that brought WestJet in there.

I know that you didn't, but you said that the reason why fares are cheaper is because pilots are cheaper in response to the pre and post WestJet era; and that simply isn't the case in domestic air travel. In fact, WestJet is often cheaper than Jazz if you are in a WestJet town in spite of operating larger equipment and paying its pilots more.

[Beefitarian]

I would like to ensure you don't think I was the one that brought WestJet in there.

I know that you didn't, but you said that the reason why fares are cheaper is because pilots are cheaper in response to the pre and post WestJet era; and that simply isn't the case in domestic air travel. In fact, WestJet is often cheaper than Jazz if you are in a WestJet town in spite of operating larger equipment and paying its pilots more.

I'm trying to say, "Part of the reason pilots make less is because fares are cheaper and as an executive who needs to answer to share holders I'm not taking the pay cut that has to happen to make it look like I'm keeping costs down."

[Beefitarian]

Pilots used to be the apples grown by a guy that had an Orchard in the Oakanogan. He has to make enough money to survive there with his family. Now pilots are one of the billions of apples grown by the Yangtze down stream from a place where they are recycling electronics. Some might be pretty good apples all of them are much less expensive.

[Jean-Pierre]

http://business.financialpost.com/tag/air-georgian/


Final Answer to the post ------ YES

Jazz did poop the bed

WOW. Bye Jazz.

I hardly knew ya.

[Mig29]

Wow, some of you guys are worse then the reporters themselves!

It's JUST a new coat of (blue) paint and instead of "Jazz" the word EXPRESS!!

GET OVER IT PEOPLE!!!


Scroll down this link and look at the pics on the right. ALL those carriers carry "Lufthansa Regional" title with subtitles of FIVE different carriers underneath. Sounds familiar??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Regional

[Jellyman]

Jelyman is back after a very long layoff.

I have to admit I haven't read the entire thread on this topic but it sounds like some people are actually upset that Jazz pilots and the union that represents them got better wages and working conditions. I am suprised, because if the culture of paying pilots Kraft Dinner money is allowed to continue everyone suffers. It is up to the pilots to demand better pay and not take jobs for nothing. We all want to get to fly the aircraft we have always dreamed of, but in my opinion we should make what we are worth. We all, every pilot out there, has spent loads of money and sacraficed huge to be paid peanuts. If we don't all pull together and demand better pay and working conditions, nothing will change and the whole industry suffers. We all have to start somewhere, but why is it we have to decide between paying our bills and following our dreams. I know it's not like that everywhere, but I think we should get paid more then squiggy kids on the highway.

My two cents. Cheers.

[gtanorth]

http://www.benzinga.com/press-releases/ ... provides-o


Now it looks like there is some consolidation between the players.

[rudder]

And SKY is a real airline? Not. Everything about SKY makes it look like the tent can be folded up on a moments notice. Minimal capital investment, aircraft subleases, contracted out support, etc,etc. This is a template for how to get around the unions.

There is lots more to this. Likely to unfold in the months to come.

[Jean-Pierre]

And SKY is a real airline? Not.

From what I hear it will sort of be like Air Georgian 705 division. Nice to see them stepping up in the world. Some good people there.