Israel's new squadron of fire-fighting planes is now ready f

[niss]

I'm wondering why a sqn of Air Tractors vs something like a CL-215/415? Any thoughts? With such proximity to the Mediterranean wouldn't 1 or 2 of them do a better job then having to land and take on more water/suppressant? Again, I would have figured that for 60 years we have been planting trees all over the country and for 60 years people have been firing rockets in our direction, you would think that Israel would have a plan for forest fires.

What about converting C130s for that role?

Israel's new squadron of fire-fighting planes is now ready for action
Israel purchased the squadron after 2010's devastating Carmel wildfire; One of the planes was put on alert due to expected hot and dry weather this weekend.
By Zohar Blumenkrantz

A new squadron of fire-fighting planes purchased after a massive wildfire ravaged Israel's Carmel region last year successfully completed its first training exercise and is thus now able to be used.

One of the planes was put on alert on Tuesday due to expected hot and dry weather, which will continue throughout the weekend.

The new squadron is named after Elad Riven, the teenage volunteer firefighter who was killed in the Carmel wildfire. The squadron contains seven Air Tractor 802 planes, which cost around 70 million shekels.

Although the squadron is now ready to be used, it will only officially be launched on May 4, following a ceremony which the prime minister is set to attend.

The Carmel wildfire, which occurred at the end of 2010, was recently in the news with fire victims announcing plans to sue the state over lack of compensation which was promised by the government.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... n-1.358236

[Jean-Pierre]

Not sure if troll but I respond. 70 million shekels is around 20 million dollars. Not nearly enough for even one CL-415. The 802 can be on floats too if water pickup is what you want. Better to spread 7 airplanes at strips around the country for fast response though. Hit a fire before it gets big is key. Also, what if your 1 plane is in maintenance? Better hope there is no fire!

[niss]

Hmmm.... fair enough.

[bizjets101]

Niss, not only are you correct, from what I've read - the goal is to purchase Bombardier 415's - the Air Tractors are privately owned by Chim-Nir Flight Services and Elbit Systems - and contracted to the Israeli Government.

The Government needed aircraft prior to the start of this years fire season - the first three aircraft with Spanish registrations arrived on March 31st at Sde Dov Air Base (Tel Aviv) and moved later that day to Herzliya Airport just North of the Air Base.

First three aircraft are 4X-AFS,4X-AFT, and 4X-AFX. all owned by Chim-Nir-Aviation.

They will be based at two bases, Megiddo and Kedma at civilian airports and will be moved to wherever they are needed.

Arrival March 31/2011 Sde Dov Air Base

[2R]

Dual use aircraft that also can be used for ariel application of biological weapons.
Does anyone know what type of aircraft where used to spray LSD on the crowd at Woodstock concerts ?


Source: A Higher Form of Killing,
A history on the use of chemical and biological weapons published in 1980.Made reference to the spraying off crowds with various mood altering chemicals.Ecstasy came out of that programme.Ever wondered why there is no violence at raves where ecstasy and special k are on the menu

[Beefitarian]

I'm going to jump in with, if there's someone with a hatred for israeli airplanes looking for me to come by I'd rather be in a small plane that can fly low and turn out of sight. You can fly the c-130 with a big "kick me" on it niss.

[niss]

Niss, not only are you correct, from what I've read - the goal is to purchase Bombardier 415's - the Air Tractors are privately owned by Chim-Nir Flight Services and Elbit Systems - and contracted to the Israeli Government.

The Government needed aircraft prior to the start of this years fire season - the first three aircraft with Spanish registrations arrived on March 31st at Sde Dov Air Base (Tel Aviv) and moved later that day to Herzliya Airport just North of the Air Base.

First three aircraft are 4X-AFS,4X-AFT, and 4X-AFX. all owned by Chim-Nir-Aviation.

They will be based at two bases, Megiddo and Kedma at civilian airports and will be moved to wherever they are needed.

Arrival March 31/2011 Sde Dov Air Base

Thanks for the info. How do you know all this?

[trey kule]

My really quite uniformed opinion.

1. A C130 in the US had the wings come off a few years back, and the resultant investigation determined that some planes could not withstand the rigors of water bombing and used planes would further aggravate that issue as they were worn out a bit.
2. The 802 is a fantastic machine. (this I actually know a bit about). In terms of dollars, operating costs, redunancy, a very superior machine, and I would expect all costs and considerations in, a real challange to the 415s.
3. As to the seawater thing, you would have to wait for a post from a fire specialist. Things like adding retardent, fueling etc, sometimes means land bases are really more practical, although, as someone mentioned, you can put an 802 on floats (not sure how that works)
4. Lastly , from what I have seen over the years, when it comes to aviation there are some pretty smart folks in Isreal who get things done effeciently, so they just might know something none of us do.

[niss]

4. Lastly , from what I have seen over the years, when it comes to aviation there are some pretty smart folks in Isreal who get things done effeciently, so they just might know something none of us do.

I whole heartily agree, except that it took the worst fire in their history and many deaths to figure out that these fancy airplanes can be used to drop water.

[trey kule]

to paraphrase the great Sid Guatama

"shit happens".

We all make mistakes when it comes to oversight (well except for TC who never make mistakes themselve and demands the same from others). Tragic, but it happens.

It is very hard for any government to admit they made a mistake and then correct it. You should be glad they did..

Now if Isreal would just reverse that whole anti-pork thing we would have a huge new market for agricultural products.. Work on that for us, will you please Niss. After all, how many tragic deaths have actually occurred in Isreal due to N.A.P.D? (not aquired pork deficiency)
I bet they keep those numbers under wraps....

[Mitch Cronin]

Does anyone know what type of aircraft where used to spray LSD on the crowd at Woodstock concerts ?

Now that's funny! There was no need for that.. LSD was flowing quite freely in those days.

[North Shore]

2/415 work really well when there is lots of water nearby (think Canadian Shield - type country;) not so much if they have to go back to an airport to ground-load. The Air Tractors are pretty good for ground loaders - I would expect, seeing as they are converted ag-planes, that they could take off from ~ 2000' of straight road if need be, so you could get pretty near to a fire using a straight road and a set of fuel and retardant tankers to help load and fuel the planes. Also, skimmers are going to need specialized training for the water ops, whereas you can probably let the ground-based planes go with any old Taavi, Daniel or Haim at the controls...

[niss]

Also, skimmers are going to need specialized training for the water ops, whereas you can probably let the ground-based planes go with any old Taavi, Daniel or Haim at the controls...

Well if a bunch of turks can figure it out then there is no reason........

[Beefitarian]

I need a judges ruling on the spelling of the second name before I award a 10 on this one.

any old Taavi, Daniel or Haim at the controls

[Beefitarian]

Instant standing ovation if you would have googled hebrew names for boys starting with d and used, "Dekel" there.

[niss]

I need a judges ruling on the spelling of the second name before I award a 10 on this one.

any old Taavi, Daniel or Haim at the controls

תאבי
דניאל
חיים

[Beefitarian]

זהו מה אני מדבר. בדיחה מעולה.

I don't know what the translator did to that but I put in. "That's what I'm talking about. Excellent joke."

[bizjets101]

Click Here EAA News - The Fire Boss on floats.

Two of the 7 Fire Boss aircraft for Israel will be equipped with water scoopers.

[Rowdy]

What are the costs and production wait times on the 415? What are the turnaround times on the ramp? Obviously a fantastic platform for the canadian flatlands with lots o' lakes and water to scoop from.

The 8-02 and eventual 10-02 look to be quite the viable platform for the local conditions. I'm partial to the fireboss myself..







Love the Conair paintscheme on it.. although the yellow and blue looks good too..



10-02.. 20,000lb gross weight! JEEBUS!

[bizjets101]

Two recent orders received by Bombardier for CL 415's to undisclosed customer . . .

Click Here

Click Here

[North Shore]

Also, skimmers are going to need specialized training for the water ops, whereas you can probably let the ground-based planes go with any old Taavi, Daniel or Haim at the controls...

Well if a bunch of turks can figure it out then there is no reason........

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that there are still a bunch of Canadians working there, teaching the Turks how do do things properly/safely. In a busy season, you might get 200 hours on type - there's no way that, without a few more hundred (1000?) hours of float time, you'd be safe or competent in a 215 with that little on type..

[2R]

Edited. Completely off topic.

[2R]

What short memories some people have.
After 9-11 aviation authorities took an interest in those attempting to procure this dual use technology.They where scared that it could be used for purposes other than firefighting.If you think that is off topic.Please feel free to explain why nobody should be concerned that several counties have been aquiring this dual use capabilty in that part of the world.
Going off topic: How long would it take to convert a BAE Concord into a supersonic weapons platform ?
There are more than two correct answers to that question and i know at least three of them.

[niss]

[2R]

Be careful there niss,some of those religious pious nutbars in scientology might take offence and sue avcanada for using that name without their permission