Logging Instrument time real world

[Spokes]

I'm assuming its CAR 401.08 that you got that excerpt from

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

I'm fairly certain that they're referring to IMC, as I've never really seen a requirement anywhere to log specifically that you're flying VFR, or IFR.

Do you mean besides CAR 401.08?

[E B]

When I got my A signed off I had no IMC or IFR entries in my book at all. The inspector did however, look through the logbook and see that at the time I had over five years experience and 2500 hrs and based on the types I've flown, it was probably safe to say that I meet the requirements. It is just a matter of common sense, if you primarily fly (file) IFR, its probably safe to say that you could count 5% of that time as actual (since that's what 75 of the 1500 hr. requirement is). Its a benchmark of experience; not just a time requirement; and you either have it or you don't. If you are coming in right at the 75 hr mark, then I guess you should have the proof that the experience exists.

As far as what you can and can't log, try this on: If you are in cloud, log it. If you are following the airway visually, don't log it.

"At the end of the day the details are quite inconsequential really". (Dr. Evil voice)

[Cat Driver]

Can someone explain to me what the difference is between flying IFR in cloud and flying IFR outside of cloud?

This subject has always interested me especially when I read so much fixating on the logging flying in cloud thing.

Is there a danger involved in IFR in cloud that does not exist outside of cloud?

[ant_321]

One of my friends recently had his ATPL signed off. He logged all his time filed IFR as "actual" and TC just took a percentage of it for the IMC requirement.

[Les Habitants]

Can someone explain to me what the difference is between flying IFR in cloud and flying IFR outside of cloud?

This subject has always interested me especially when I read so much fixating on the logging flying in cloud thing.

Is there a danger involved in IFR in cloud that does not exist outside of cloud?

Yes Cat,

There is the danger that, when the PF looks down at his lap or at his oxygen mask, charts, engine gauges, or anything, he won't recognize if he enters a bank IN cloud. Outside of cloud, it's easy to realize and correct.

This is, of course, assuming you are hand flying the plane.

[Cat Driver]

Yes Cat,

There is the danger that, when the PF looks down at his lap or at his oxygen mask, charts, engine gauges, or anything, he won't recognize if he enters a bank IN cloud. Outside of cloud, it's easy to realize and correct.

This is, of course, assuming you are hand flying the plane.

If a pilot is that incompetent flying on instruments then he/she needs further training and should not hold an instrument rating until they learn how to fly by instruments only.

[Les Habitants]

Yes Cat,

There is the danger that, when the PF looks down at his lap or at his oxygen mask, charts, engine gauges, or anything, he won't recognize if he enters a bank IN cloud. Outside of cloud, it's easy to realize and correct.

This is, of course, assuming you are hand flying the plane.

If a pilot is that incompetent flying on instruments then he/she needs further training and should not hold an instrument rating until they learn how to fly by instruments only.

Cat, surely with all your years experience you know that if you look down for even a few seconds it is possible to bank into a turn without realizing it? It's not a matter of being incompetent-this happens to everyone. It's easily correctable-roll out of the 5 degree bank and turn back on course. It happens to me, from time to time, and even to my captains. It's easily preventable by a good instrument scan, but sometimes we get distracted. I think the real trick is not to be distracted when you are PF and to remain focused 100% on your scan. Never have I been looking at the attitude indicator/doing a proper scan and all of a sudden realized I was in a bank or a climb/descent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as if you are saying a pilot who accidentally enters a 10 degree banked turn while not watching his instruments for a split second is incompetent and needs to go back to flight school.

[Cat Driver]

My question was very simple, I asked if there was any " danger " involved in flying instruments in cloud versus in the clear.

Is there a danger involved in IFR in cloud that does not exist outside of cloud?

Flying by reference to instruments is easier in many ways than flying VFR looking outside for the simple reason all the visual information that you need to accurately fly the airplane is right in front of you in a very small space.

I do not think of flying by instruments as a " scan " exercise, rather I see it as a picture exercise and therefore easier than looking outside.

I used to hand fly the Turbo Commander a lot just because it was so easy to fly it, I often never engaged the autopilot from take off to landing because it was boring watching the autopilot fly it.

Instrument flying like operating any other type of machinery is no different really than any other kind of driving, it is as much a state of mind as it is mechanical function.

I am more comfortable flying in cloud than outside of cloud because it is easier.

[Les Habitants]

Alright, fair enough, but if a distraction great enough happens, or a poorly trained pilot doesn't pay attention to his instruments it could turn dangerous very fast, so I think.

Illusions all around are dangerous. I know of experienced instrument pilots who throttle up to go around, felt they were pitching up too sharply (they were really only pitching up 8 degrees), pushed the nose forward. They never realized they had pushed their nose so far forward they were descending again, and they killed themselves by flying into the trees. These were very experienced instrument pilots here. If they had been flying VFR, they would have noticed.

[Cat Driver]

Alright, fair enough, but if a distraction great enough happens, or a poorly trained pilot doesn't pay attention to his instruments it could turn dangerous very fast, so I think.

Therefore we agree.

Next of course one must assume that a pilot with an instrument rating and properly trained will not let things turn dangerous because they allowed an airplane to get out of control.

Maybe part of the problem is a lot of pilots get the impression that instrument flying is some kind of black magic that should be feared?

[Cat Driver]

Maybe I have this comfort with flying by instruments because I was trained to do so without wearing a hood.

We were either in cloud or had a vision limiting system that restricted all outside clues 100%, just like being in cloud.

Illusions all around are dangerous. I know of experienced instrument pilots who throttle up to go around, felt they were pitching up too sharply (they were really only pitching up 8 degrees), pushed the nose forward. They never realized they had pushed their nose so far forward they were descending again, and they killed themselves by flying into the trees. These were very experienced instrument pilots here. If they had been flying VFR, they would have noticed.

How do you know what killed them, the dead seldom come back to explain what they did wrong.

[Beefitarian]

I do not think of flying by instruments as a " scan " exercise, rather I see it as a picture exercise and therefore easier than looking outside.

I'm interested in hearing about this, could you expand on it?

[Les Habitants]

Cat, it still is possible for someone to make a mistake even if they are top notch on their IFR.

I also know of a crew that had a fire in the power lever quadrant as they took off. They looked down, got distracted, and 15 seconds later looked up to find a tree sticking into their windshield.

IMHO, the only way you can tie that back to training is to emphasize the importance of one pilot ALWAYS FLYING THE PLANE. Again, this is of course all assuming you are handflying at the time, which you will all of the time in most king airs, metros, and the like.

[Cat Driver]

I'm interested in hearing about this, could you expand on it?

These discussions generally focus around mechanical flight instruments which are in a group of six in most airplanes.

Modern EFIS panels are quite different.

I do not " scan " if I am looking at an instrument say the altimeter which is the best one for maintaining level flight I can also see the rest of the instruments in my peripheral vision...which gives me the whole picture and tells me the airplanes attitude and trend.

We were not taught a " scan " as such, we were taught to look at the instrument you needed for a given reason and in your peripheral vision to note the information the other instruments are giving and for any trend.

[Cat Driver]

Les Habitants, of course people make mistakes and have accidents.

Some people are more prone to having accidents than others are and part of the reason can be traced back to either poor training, lack of attention to detail, lack of good decision making or sometimes all of the foregoing.

There a lot of us out here who have flown for our whole career without allowing an airplane fly us into an accident.

were we just lucky for all those thousands of hours or could it be we just paid more attention to not only our decisions but to what was going on in the airplane more than those who had accidents.

I can only recall one instance where I was pilot flying and allowed an airplane to get into an attitude that I did not want and it was VFR over the Red Sea in haze and flat water while three of us were trying to figure out an engine problem....the other two pilots did not notice the change in attitude and I corrected it without any comment.

We were very tired and under stress because we did not want to declare an emergency and go back to Jeddah.......but we soon figured out that was what we had to do.

If you have a mechanical problem and have to make an emergency landing Jeddah is one place you should try and avoid.

[Cat Driver]

You guys are lucky today, you do not have to learn to read morse code to get your instrument rating.

Like we had to in the 1950's.

[Les Habitants]

How do you know what killed them, the dead seldom come back to explain what they did wrong.

Cockpit voice recorder.

If you have a mechanical problem and have to make an emergency landing Jeddah is one place you should try and avoid

Noted

Les Habitants, of course people make mistakes and have accidents.

Some people are more prone to having accidents than others are and part of the reason can be traced back to either poor training, lack of attention to detail, lack of good decision making or sometimes all of the foregoing.

There a lot of us out here who have flown for our whole career without allowing an airplane fly us into an accident.

were we just lucky for all those thousands of hours or could it be we just paid more attention to not only our decisions but to what was going on in the airplane more than those who had accidents.

I can only recall one instance where I was pilot flying and allowed an airplane to get into an attitude that I did not want and it was VFR over the Red Sea in haze and flat water while three of us were trying to figure out an engine problem....the other two pilots did not notice the change in attitude and I corrected it without any comment.

We were very tired and under stress because we did not want to declare an emergency and go back to Jeddah.......but we soon figured out that was what we had to do.

If you have a mechanical problem and have to make an emergency landing Jeddah is one place you should try and avoid.

But of course some people have a higher aptitude for attention to detail than others. You will hear endless theories on why this is, it could be a dietry issue, a behaviour habit, who knows? It doesn't really matter. What matters is, maybe not everyone is as good at paying attention to detail as you Cat. If so, you wouldn't relate because you don't understand how they feel, so perhaps this is where you get your mindset on the issue?

sorry if what I am saying is German to you...

[Cat Driver]

But of course some people have a higher aptitude for attention to detail than others. You will hear endless theories on why this is, it could be a dietry issue, a behaviour habit, who knows? It doesn't really matter.

Paying attention to detail matters to me, in fact I believe it has been at least partially responsible for having survived all these years.

This forum is a good venue to express opinions and it is my opinion that the requirements to be a commercial pilot are far to lax and thus we have a broad spectrum of ability from the gifted professionals to the nearly inept out there flying commercially.

I do not see any real evidence things will improve either.

[yak8]

Can we log IFR when on auto-pilot having meal on top of clouds ?
Just kidding, last time i cheked, there was no VFR maps in my plane....And try to follow an airways in a blue sky day with visual references only ! (Cadors...)
Keep it simple, when you give a ride to your mother in law, it's going to be VFR; If you file IFR for YXU to YTR (to visit your mother in law), it's 100 % IFR !
For the ATP, file IFR at night for all your flights. And when positionning, try to do it at night.

A particular mention to the dude who was asking blocks to fly in clouds....I have seen a LOT...but that's great !

[KK7]

There is definitely more risk involved without any outside reference, and this has been shown time and time again through accidents. A simple browse through accident investigations show loss of situational awareness and CFIT crashes mostly occur when flying through IMC, whether it be in actual cloud, or at night time also with no outside visual reference. It's all nice to say that even when flying IFR in VMC, one should be on the instruments, if ever an error in instrumentation exists, a simple look outside will confirm or deny it, since the horizon often does not lie, so long as one is looking at the real horizon and not some illusion. When in IMC in cloud or in pitch black dark, if one doesn't believe their instruments, it's a little more difficult to confirm it.

There have been several accidents of very experienced airline pilots taking off at night, then crashing shortly after take off when there was no mechanical failure of the aircraft. An investigation of the CVR shows that either the pilots were not paying attention to the instruments (whereas in VMC a near inverted bank angle or a steep dive into the ground is more obvious through the window), or as they crashed the pilots were arguing or determining whether what they were seeing on the instruments was what was actually happening. One glances away for a second, looks back and sees an 80 degree bank angle and 20 degree nose down pitch, when a second ago you were climbing wings level with a 7 degree nose up pitch makes what you're seeing unbelievable, even though we are trained over and over that this can infact happen. People react differently in real life than they do in training.

Anyways, what's wrong with Jeddah? Maybe it was different a while back. I've flown into Jeddah numerous times, although never in an emergency situation. They seem to know what they are doing, and having met many of the controllers, many of them were trained here in Canada by NavCanada in Cornwall.

[Cat Driver]

It is not the controllers in Jeddah that is the problem.

It is the problems you have getting visas to stay in the Kingdom and then getting stuff shipped to do the repairs.

Also living there for any length of time has its problems.

And changing an engine at over 50 degrees C out on the ramp is far from fun.

Accidents are part of things people do, people drive cars into concrete overpasses, they drive cars off the road into trees and ditches they do lots of stupid things.

Same with airplanes, people do stupid things and often it is because they are not paying proper attention.....or they are poor airplane drivers to start with.

[Beefitarian]

Thanks catdriver.

[trey kule]

Cat, surely with all your years experience you know that if you look down for even a few seconds it is possible to bank into a turn without realizing it? It's not a matter of being incompetent-this happens to everyone. It's easily correctable-roll out of the 5 degree bank and turn back on course. It happens to me, from time to time, and even to my captains. It's easily preventable by a good instrument scan, but sometimes we get distracted. I think the real trick is not to be distracted when you are PF and to remain focused 100% on your scan. Never have I been looking at the attitude indicator/doing a proper scan and all of a sudden realized I was in a bank or a climb/descent.

When I read this and your other posts, I have to ask.. How much instrument time do you have?
Your observations and questions sound like something right out of an FTU, and not from somebody who has been flying on instruments a fair bit.
I am not trying to bash you, but you might just consider learning from the likes of CAT if you dont have a bag of time on instruments.

[Cat Driver]

Yeh, trey kule sometimes I justify myself trying to point out the obvious by reminding myself this is cyberspace and not the real world that we come from.

At least that seems to help me deal with some of the comments that we see here.

Fact:

Flying IFR in cloud with a valid clearance and following said clearance backed up by following the IFR charts and procedures is way, way safer than flying VFR....and it is not difficult.

[justwork]

Back to the original question. The way I see it, if you're filed IFR then you're logging instrument time. If you're filed, and not dead reckoning - log it regardless if you can see 20 miles or 1/4 mile. After you get your AA I'm sure you'll never put ink in that column again.

What's the alternative? starting the timer every time you hit IMC? give me a break.