The ultimate glider tow plane and training glider?

[Cat Driver]

I want to know what all you Air Cadet people would like for the ultimate tow plane and training glider.

[Birddog27]

Air cadets program had extensive research about this topic during the last few years. They come to the conclusion of this:

Ultimate Tow plane: O-1 Bird bog with a O-540 engine. The mod include the engine of 250hp, a constant pitch propeller from Hartzell and finally a stol kit. A aircraft been able to land short and take off even shorter. Very manoeuvrable a low speed ( even below stall speed with some throttle) and capable to reach VNE within seconds. Eastern region just got their 4th aircraft converted with the STC. Only have 2 conventional bird dog left and planning to convert them in a near future.

Ultimate training glider: They finally realized that 2-33 wont last forever... They plan to buy ASK-21 to eventually replace them. But with all the good care and money invested into their Schweizers, that not gonna happen any time soon. For their type of operation, 2-33 is still a good glider.

IMHO, they made a good choice. Bird dog is perfect for the mission of towing gliders and 2-33 are still good for a while. But knowing they look into composite glider for the future, that proove they will eventually catch up with 21 century.

[Cat Driver]

What about the 235 Pawnee?

How much does it cost to buy and convert a 0-1 Bird dog?

[Cat Driver]

If an Air Cadet group were to have the choice between a tow plane and a ask-21 which would be their choice?

[Birddog27]

Air cadets made their choice... Tow plane first and new glider later.

Pawnee would be a good choice for the performance. The problem is this a expensive aircraft on the market. If you find a cheap one, its corroded everywhere because of use of crop spray liquids. But most of all, its a single seater. Tow pilots are most of the time alone but some of their operation required to have 2 places ( Transit, training, fam flight,etc...)

It cost about 100000$ to convert a "bird bog" into a "Super bird dog". That include the STC, manpower, all new parts, etc... It might seem expensive but overall of several engines before reaching TBO is expensive too. Anyway, parts for 0-470-11 is almost inexistant. In few years, they would end up with engine core but no more spare parts. On a long run, that will be more cost efficient with the new engine.

[Birddog27]

Your question is about Air Cadets. But also civilian club using tow planes for glider operation.

Ultimate tow plane ever... A 2 seater aircraft capable of turf and asphalt operation, water cooled engine, a lot of flaps and finally STOL performance.

Would be perfect... but never been seen in certified aircraft world.

[Cat Driver]

My interest is to do with the Air Cadets, as far as I can see there is no reason why the Air Cadets must operate a certified airplane is there?

I am trying to figure out what I want to do with whatever time I have left in my life and with those thoughts of course comes my will.

I am coming to the place in my mind where I would like to see some personal benefit from whatever my estate may have now or in the future.

I am going back to work, not because I need money but to give me something to do and should I in the process start making more than I really need I can not think of a better group in aviation to help out than the Air Cadets.

If I were to buy them a glider or a tow plane it would give me pleasure to see the results while I am alive.

For me it is that simple.

[Birddog27]

If you have time to spare, you should get involved in your local air cadets squadron. Your experience in aviation and also in life will benefit all young cadets. Teaching one cadet to get it ready to have a flying scholarship can go a long way. Maybe more than giving them money. I had the pleasure to teach hundreds of cadets in preparation of scholarship. Some fail, some get it and left but some get it, and stay to teach others cadets as flight instructors or ground school instructor. I know for a fact that the time spent with those kids and in a way changed their lifes... or at least had a positive influence.

Young cadets need guidance and sadly, not enough people are willing to share their wisdom to them...

Get involved!

[Cat Driver]

I may get involved eventually, but at the moment I am not really able to do so as I am still having a difficult time just coping with today.

Your comment about giving money is part of what I examined during the past few months, if I can save enough money to buy an airplane or glider that will be way better than giving money to individuals as it will benefit many, many young people for years.

Anyhow it is what I hope to do in the next few years.

[black hole]

A Pawnee; stripped of spray gear and an O-360 Lycoming and a Borer prop. I'm Building one now. Will be for sale in spring 2012.

BH

[all_ramped_up]

No real input as per the Towplane as I was always quite happy behind the L-19.

As for the glider though... the Blanik L-13 is sturdy and handles great. The L/D Ratio isn't too far off from the 2-33A as well and they're a fairly common airframe.

Nice bonuses of it are one setting flaps, spoilers that actually work and a canopy that is a heck of a lot quieter than the 2-33A.

[Barkaie]

For the cadets in this area, they are steering away from tow planes totally and going with the winch, reason being, trying to get 30-50 kids up in an afternoon is easier to just give them a circuit and a bit, to get as many kids up as possible, and of course costs.. wrong or right thats what they are doing here

[KK7]

I may get involved eventually, but at the moment I am not really able to do so as I am still having a difficult time just coping with today.

Your comment about giving money is part of what I examined during the past few months, if I can save enough money to buy an airplane or glider that will be way better than giving money to individuals as it will benefit many, many young people for years.

Anyhow it is what I hope to do in the next few years.

I don't claim to even remotely relate to your situation Cat, but if I might be so bold to say, teaching, or at least helping out with a class or two of Air Cadet ground school might help you cope. Having gone through the Air Cadet program and while I was in Cadets set up a groundschool since nobody was willing to do it, I can tell you having someone like you around even just to speak for one night would be an awesome experience for those kids. You've done the things that these kids are dreaming of doing, and seeing that it is in fact possible, and getting that kick to go after their dreams is exactly what you can provide, along with some good stories for entertainment. In my opinion it's win win.

I got a lot out of Cadets, and when I get the time to do it, I plan on giving back. You have the time and I'm envious of that. These kids are like sponges waiting to soak up anything aviation related, best you get to them first before other questionable individuals!

[Cat Driver]

KK7, my situation at this time is I am committed to working for on new project that a friend of mine is setting up and will require him to buy a helicopter to use for transportation to and from a wilderness retreat he is planning on building. And in that I prefer helicopters to fixed wing on a scale of 100 to 1. I am going to enjoy going back to flying for a few years, the really nice bit is I no longer have to get fisted on a regular basis by a C.A.M.E. because I will no longer need to hold a license above a private license.

For this summer and fall I will not only have no time to devote to doing any training or ground school for anyone I won't even be in B.C. for about a month to a month and a half as we are taking the company Husky on a trip to St. Johns as a sort of working vacation. Then I will be kept busy looking for property and looking after the start up of the building project.

My reason for asking these questions is because should I end up with more money than I need I am planning on buying an airplane or glider for the Air Cadets as my children do not want anything from me when I croak.

Another advantage to donating to the Air Cadets while I am alive it will be a tax break and I will not get depressed thinking my money is going to those thieves in government.

A win win for everyone except the thieves.

I am leaning towards giving them a nice modern glider and if they want I will help the Air Cadets here in Naniamo with the teaching part....if I ever get the spare time.

I am fairly confident I will be able to do this within the next two or so years as any money I make will be more than I need anyhow.

By posting this here it will motivate me to actually do something.

[Strega]

Cat,

PZL-104 Wilga 80 or 35.

Best bang for the buck,, TONS of thrust! you can actually tow 2 gliders at the same time. Slow, ugly, and built like a tractor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-104_Wilga

[Masters Off]

Cat, just a thought...but look up the Chmelak T-37 Turbine...that thing is just purely awesome.
On the note about Pawnees, the danger being that they may have been spraying in the past, and their overall condition may have been degraded by that fact. The bird dog is quite well suited. Lots of aircraft can tow, however you'll find the Pawnee is one of the most frequent.

As for gliders, the SGS 2-33 officially can train pilots in the shortest amount of time. These aircraft can really last forever. The air cadets as I last checked, were looking (or did) own the rights to maintenance of these aircraft. They also went for test flights at the SOSA Gliding Club in 2009 for the ASK-21. The K-21 in my opinion is just a fiberglass, updated version of the 2-33. Both do the job very well. The K-21 is the most popular training glider in the world. The K-13 has also been mentioned as very good, the DG-500T and Grob G103 are also somewhat common trainers.

Don't be afraid to go help out any gliding club! We're all slowly loosing members, dying away and dwindling off into the horizon. In Ontario alone Guelph Gliding and Erin Soaring were both folded in the past few years. The over-all membership in the country has gone from over 1000 to just 903 last year. Air Cadets will forever be funded, and pump out fresh pilots, however our clubs that continue the sport of soaring, the enjoyment of gliding are hurting. This is not so much a suggestion rather a request. Come soar with us!

[Waldo Peppar]

Cat,
That trip to St Johns....do you mean St. John's , NL?
If so, and you are on floats..we have to touch bases.
I operate a C185 on a "pond" in central Newfoundland,
you would be more than welcome to spend some time.
Cheers,
waldo
PS sorry for off topic interruption...welcome goes for anyone flying in this area

[Cat Driver]

Yes Waldo we are going to fly across Canada to St Johns and the Husky is on Whipline amphibs. What pond are you flying out of?

My wife and I visited an operation a couple of years ago that was flying out of a pond in central NFLD.

By the way I am thinking of selling a piece of waterfront property I own in Gilliams, you want to buy it?

[Double Wasp]

Hey Cat,

The best thing might not actually be giving an actual aircraft, contact the local zone and ask them what they need, maybe it would be help with an aircraft upgrade or even some help paying hangarage fees. When you do have a bit more time contact your local squadron I am sure they would be delighted if you were willing to donate some familiarization flying time in the Husky.

Whatever you choose Cat I am sure they will be happy with,

Cheers
DW

[shawn085]

Hey Cat,

Right now in Comox the cadets have the winch up and running. I've been told they have about 5 more on order. A friend is also bidding on the order for 5 or 6 (can't remember) Cessna 182's. The western group is looking at getting rid of the L-19's. To many air force types that think because they can fly jets they can fly tail dragger. The insurance for the L-19 is getting really high. Damaging the two L-19's last year didn't help. They have been happy with the 182 they have now, so they want to expand on that. As for the glider there are a lot of choices. I haven't heard what they are looking at. The ASK 21 is a great glider from what I've been told. No first hand experience. But the glider is getting older. I do have time in the DG505 and it's great. I'm sure the 1000 is only better. I find is great for training and has the legs for more experienced pilots. But for what the cadets do for training the old 2-33 is pretty hard to beat. No life limits that I know of and tough like tractor. I wouldn't think they wouldn't be doing anything with Let. I know the CAP down south use the Let machines but with the latest AD and not so great support I don't see it. But I've been wrong before and I'm sure it will not be the last time. I do think that with the price of fuel going the way it is, winching is going to take off here in North America like it is in Europe now. Only moving gliders and going to other airports will the tow planes be used.

Just my .02cents

[SuperchargedRS]

How about a Callair A9 for your towplane and a 2-33?

[challydriver]

Hi Cat:

First, I think what you are willing to do for the Air Cadet Gliding Program is nothing short of OUTSTANDING!

As you can see, there's lots of ideas on which towplane/glider is best but here's how the program breaks down (at least for now).

There are five gliding schools across Canada which operate with the support of their provincial committees. RGS (P) is the school for BC. RGS (Pra) is the school for Alberta, Saskatchewan & Manitoba. RGS (C) is the school for Ontario. ERGS is the school for Quebec. RGS (A) is the school for the maritimes. Although operating in a national gliding program, each school seems to have control over which equipment they use for towplanes & gliders.

All schools currently use the Schweizer SGS 2-33 as the training glider. There is a plan to replace or supplement the fleet with a new type of trainer and I heard the ASK-21 is the front . for this. It's a good solid sailplane used for training all over the world.

For towplanes, the fleet breaks down like this:

As shawn085 stated, RGS (P) is replacing all five (actually four - poor old C-FTGF was written off last year) of their Cessna L-19s with six modified Cessna 182s. Their C182 towplanes will eventually have a 300 HP Continental IO-520, a STOL kit and larger "tundra" tires for turf runways along with many other modifications. One of the reasons they switched to the C182 (or a four seater) is so they can fam-fly in the winter months or on days when the weather isn't good enough for gliding. Yes, they also feel it's easier to train new pilots on tricycle gear than tailwheel. Personally, I like their concept with the C182 and give them full credit for forward thinking and trying to get the most out of their fleet.

RGS (Pra) and RGS (C) use Bellanca Scouts as their towplanes. RGS (Pra) has six and RGS (C) has more than nine (I'm not sure how many). They're reliable, tough, have good support from American Champion Aircraft and don't need replacing anytime soon.

As Birddog 27 told you, the ERGS is converting their six Cessna L-19s into L-19 Superdogs. This is an L-19 with the 213 HP Continental O-470-11 replaced by a 250 HP O-540 with a three-bladed Hartzell constant-speed propeller. A Bush Conversions STOL kit is also added to the wing along with some other minor modifications. To me this is the ultimate towplane and I take my hat off to the staff at ERGS for going this direction with their towplanes!

For now, RGS (A) will continue to use their four "Legacy" model L-19 Birddogs. The problem is the Continental O-470-11 isn't supported by the factory anymore and with their low TBOs aren't really that great choice of an engine anymore. I don't really know what their long term towplane replacement/modification program is.

I would just be careful with what type equipment you choose to donate. Let's say you buy a brand new A-1C Husky for a towplane. It's a great, new aircraft with good support but the schools don't want them as their replacement towplane. The Air Cadets will say "thank you," paint your name on the side and within a year or two it will be sold off to raise funds for the core equipment they want. For longevity, try to get an aircraft they want to operate and need.

I would figure out what gliding school you would like to donate to. All of the schools are very approachable.

I also agree with what everyone has been telling you. With your background you would be an absolute "hit" with the cadets. What if by you coming to be a guest speaker one day at the summer camp you motivated one cadet to try that much harder with their career?

You could make a big difference by just giving a hour of your time on a summers day.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to see how this turns out for you. I really think what you are doing is giving back to flying at it's best.

Good on ya!

[Driving Rain]

Many years ago I towed gliders. The organization operated two tow aircraft.

One was a bone stock PA12 and the other was a J3 cub with the rear seat (pilots seat) moved rearward about 12 inches and the fuselage area beside and above the seat covered in Plexiglas or Lexon for increased vis.( Cat you would fit in that cramped space perfectly) The front seat had been removed as well as anything that wasn't needed. The engine as you could imagine was a O320 that was un-cowled and sitting out in the breeze with a very beefed up mount, with a borer prop.
The other mod it had was no pitch trim as the rear stabilizer jack screw was welded full nose up and 2 more reinforcing wires were added to the stabilizer to insure minimal movement.
The aircraft was operated without a C of A in a home-built category.
As I recall with a glider on the tow line the aircraft flew in trim and was nice to fly, however once the glider was released there was a sharp nose up pitch to the unwary. As there was no possibility of getting checked out in a dual configuration with this plane the first time tow was very interesting.
All in all it was a very good tow plane for minimal amount of money. Flying it anywhere for maintenance was a complete PITA until I came up with proper length bungee cord to help with the stick forces.

Cheers

[kevind]

Contact the BC Air Cadet League. (aircadetleague.bc.ca) They are the ones who purchase, own and pay the bills (well...some of them) for the fleet. The military has operation control but does not own them and the military uses what is given to them by the leagues. The military however will only use what is on their approved list.

So, its not that easy to just give us an airplane.

However, the local squadron (squadrons) could put one to good use. There are a few squadrons who own their own aircraft and it works great for them.

Work with the local squadron Cat. That is where your experience will have a direct effect on the future pilots and help them to be better pilots.

[Cat Driver]

Work with the local squadron Cat. That is where your experience will have a direct effect on the future pilots and help them to be better pilots.

Yes, that is what I intend to do as Nanaimo has very active squadron.

I have already sort of felt out one of the guys who helps run this squadron and he was really interested in my idea.

My guess is there must have been about fifty or so kids and adults out at the airport the last time I saw them flying there, so they are really attracting a lot of kids.

I can see the cost of fuel making it expensive to operate the tow planes, but how does one put a cost on forming a life of a young person? If they take the wrong path the cost of drugs and the cost to society to look after them makes the cost of running a squadron well worth it.