The ultimate glider tow plane and training glider?

[bmc]

KK7, my situation at this time is I am committed to working for on new project that a friend of mine is setting up and will require him to buy a helicopter to use for transportation to and from a wilderness retreat he is planning on building.

Is this your neighbor down the road that introduced us last year?

[Cat Driver]

No BMC, it is a life long friend who is selling his present business and is going to start a new one just for pleasure.

He took me in as a partner about three years ago and that was when I bought the Husky for him to use as a two person transportation vehicle to look for property here on the west coast.

But first we are going across Canada in it.

[Shiny Side Up]

I thought Cat's ultimate glider tug would have been obvious.



Maybe not so much for air cadets...

[zed]

Just for fyi sake. But I think the Winnipeg gliding club operate a pawnee. Or at least they still list it on their website, if you want more then a general sense of numbers/benefit/limitations.

[bmc]

Over here in Europe, it's Super Cubs, Maule's and Robin's for the most part. There are some Pawnee's around.

[RatherBeFlying]

I've been around a bunch of glider ops and it sure looks like Pawnees are taking over. One Ontario club wrote off a Pawnee a while back with a hard landing, but they do seem pretty solid as long as you can control the descent rate on final.

Having power to get up is good; harder is something that will get back down quickly without shock cooling the engine

Looking after the engine on descent is key in any towplane. Airspeed -- rpm -- cht.

[Brewguy]

I've been around a bunch of glider ops and it sure looks like Pawnees are taking over....

They're a fantastic tug!
... Unless of course, you're the sort of operation that trains a lot of new tow pilots (like the cadet program). Kind of hard to do much training in a single seater.

[Cat Driver]

A Pawnee is about as simple as it gets for a tail wheel airplane, so if a pilot wrecks one landing it in the weather and winds that Air Cadets operate in the pilot is inept and should never have been allowed to fly it in the first place.

[fish4life]

are any tow a/c running the new RR500 turbine series of engines if so I couldn't think of a better sky diver / tow plane no shock cooling problems tons of power down low.

[Adam Oke]

A Pawnee is about as simple as it gets for a tail wheel airplane, so if a pilot wrecks one landing it in the weather and winds that Air Cadets operate in the pilot is inept and should never have been allowed to fly it in the first place.

In all honesty ., it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to change the mind of air ops to allow a single seat aircraft in the fleet. How on earth can you train someone in an aircraft with ONE seat?!

I thoroughly enjoy your comment how they should have never been allowed to fly in the first place if they crash a Pawnee...but in the "cadet world" instead of training pilots better, the ACGP just incorporates another rule. For example; In recent years they found pilots nosing over tow planes. To rectify the problem, rather than training pilots better, they incorporated a new rule. You SHALL NOT wheel land without being a standards pilot or having a standards pilot on board the aircraft. The requirements for a standards pilot is 600hrs PIC and 300 hours towing on type in the program. That is 1600-2400 cycles in the 300hr towing requirement alone! In my opinion if you can not safely wheel land a scout, bird dog, or wilga, you should not be flying it.

Another prime example on the glider side. A pilot wrecked a glider in the rain, and blamed it on the rain. You now can no longer fly in light rain defined as no longer seeing clearly defined dropplets on the ground. Also when flying in rain someone deemed that this incident was caused because the stall speed was increased thus now you SHALL increase your approach speed by 1-2MPH when flying in rain.

I really honour your mind set to help out such a fantastic program that develops youth. Until the ACGP comes to realisation that it is better and safer to produce quality over quantity, you will be extremely hard pressed to change the equiptment and/or mind set of it's current state.

At this stage of the ACGP, I would honestly say that your money is better spent elsewhere. I encourage you to help you with the program, and we need people like you in the program to help bring the real world logic back. You would understand my stance if you have the opportunity to work with the ACGP one day. It is frustrating, but I do it for the kids. It's how I got my start.

If I had money to kill, I would help 'civilian' clubs and maybe donate a glider for SAC youth to fly for free. Support Canadian Juniors competing in FAI Worlds (we have one representing Canada this year), support Juniors at Youth Camps. If you want money to kill, check out what myself and my buddies have created over 8 years http://www.juniorsoaring.ca

If I were to swing back towards the Air Cadet gliding program, I would support at the local squadron level and start up a "Power Familiarization Flying Program", teach ground school to prepare them for their scholarship exams, provide appropriate ground school materials. These are all of which that I do at the local squadron level and I have no money to give -- and I'm considered a "Junior" myself!

You should start a new thread on "How to generously spend Chucks money"

Having said that. Ultimate tug is a PA-25 and training glider is a DG-1000. In order for this to happen, you must scrap the ACGP and start over.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for your comments Adam, however reading the mindset regarding how they cope with training and safety issues has depressed me to the point I am staring to think the world is getting so dumbed down I should just forget trying to slow the curve downwards.

In my opinion if you can not safely wheel land a scout, bird dog, or wilga, you should not be flying it.

How can anyone who is training pilots to fly tail wheel airplanes let them go on their own without being completely competent doing wheel landings?

Or are you just winding me up.

[bandaid]

The glider ops in Golden B.C. used to use a Citabria. It looked to handle the job of towing up the two seat Blanik with ease.

[kevind]

yes..the cadet program can be funny with the rules...and they would rather make rules than solve the problem. I can think of several incidents where the hard rules put into effect becuase of incident #1 directly caused incident #2

And it is not just the flying side of the house, you can no longer use fresh rations on exercises unless you have a red seal chef cooking.... but you can order 40 subs from subway made by a 16yo with no food safty training.

It is the cya mentality that if something happens you have to be seen to be doing something about it. Saying that was stupid..dont do it again doesnt make the higher ups happy

But..it is great program and the squadron level training is getting better..more hands on and less classroom. And they have remembered that we need to train maintainers, not just leaders and pilots.

[challydriver]

Well...

The Air Cadet Gliding Program is where I got my start in aviation and even though I'm not involved anymore, I'm going to echo what some people are saying.

The program trains approximately 320 cadets each year from across Canada to be licensed glider pilots. More than 22,000 cadets receive familiarization flights in gliders each year and the program averages 55,000 flight (again) across Canada each year. That 55,000 flight would also include the instructor instructor training program (but does not include the tow pilot training program).

We have to be really careful when we critique their flying program. It is very well established operation and when you look at the figures, along with the age group of the people flying the equipment I think they do a very good job. I find with regards to their program people tend to say "they should/shouldn't do this & that" but the truth is it works and is working for them. So my advise to all is let them be and don't try to change them...

Oh, if you want to change the program by all means, get involved as an officer, civilian instructor or even a member of the Air Cadet League but please don't try to fix things from the outside. Quite frankly, I've seen too many people try to do this and it doesn't/won't work. The program is just too big and established for one person on the outside to make a difference.

When I was a cadet we had many people: younger, older, military, civilian, high time & low time mentoring us through the early days of our flying. They were all involved with the program and yes, the made a BIG difference.

Yes, they train people to fly and they have different goals than a SAC club. They fly cadets for 15 minutes at a time to give them that first "taste" of flying. They license glider pilots and instructors to help keep the program going. Unlike the 1960's when there was an RCAF and lots of air force reserve squadrons that ended when the CAF came into being. In the 1970s, the Air Cadet Gliding Program replaced void that the RCAF left and kept the "AIR" in Air Cadets.

By the way, they don't train people to fly tailwheel aircraft. They check pilots out on the type (L-19, Scout & C182) to be towpilots. To the best of my knowledge, you need to have tailwheel time/training before you can go on course for the towplane. This means that someone other than the Air Cadet Gliding School has to have taught the new towpilot how to do wheel & three point landings on a tailwheel aircraft.

Why do the Air Cadets not do wheel landings in the L-19 & Scout?

I've asked and they have their reasons. That's their rule and from what I've seen in the accident reports for the L-19s in BC: C-FTGA in 1984, C-FTAL in 1992, C-GRGS in 2001, C-FTAL in 2010 and C-FTGF in 2010 a wheel landing wouldn't have made a difference. I won't go into details but the reports are available, you just have to ask for them.

Anyhow, . I like what you proposed to do for the Air Cadet Gliding Program. By your actions alone, you will be making a BIG difference but I caution you, unless you get involved with the program, don't try and make a difference by changing things from the outside. It won't work and you'll just end up resenting what the Air Cadets are trying to do.

I look forward to the day when I see an Air Cadet Cessna 182 towplane with your name painted on the cowling.

[warbirdpilot7]

I've been around a bunch of glider ops and it sure looks like Pawnees are taking over. One Ontario club wrote off a Pawnee a while back with a hard landing, but they do seem pretty solid as long as you can control the descent rate on final.

Having power to get up is good; harder is something that will get back down quickly without shock cooling the engine

Looking after the engine on descent is key in any towplane. Airspeed -- rpm -- cht.

The Pawnee is the top towing aircraft in my opinion. I am familiar with the high sink rate(similar to a warbird), as I have around 40hrs in the 25(all towing). I found no problem doing the "self" checkout.

The cylinder temps were high at the end of the tow, but it was more forgiving in the let-down then the citab or decathalon. Fun airplane, and I really miss it.

As a side note: I would have to fly to a local airfield for fuel, as we ran out at our field. When you are flying with no tow, you are around 800lbs under gross. She would climb in an elevator shaft and not hit the sides

[The Old Fogducker]

.:

Let me give you a huge smile, shake your hand with my right, and slap you on the shoulder with the other. What a superb bit of thinking, and I commend you.

I spent five years with an Air Cadet Squadron teaching interested, highly motivated young people about flying to help them obtain gliding and power scholarships. As an instructor, it was some of the best, and most gratifying work I ever did.

If I may be so bold, I'd consider having a lawyer involved and establish your bequest as a trust, reviewed from time to time to ensure your good work has not been taken for granted or abused should someone "weasely" rise to higher ranks of the Air Cadets, prematurely sell off "your airplane," and arbitrarily decide to use the funds for something with which you'd fundamentally disagree.

Warm Regards . ... you've given me something to think about.
The Old Fogducker

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the comments challydriver, I appreciate them.

I have been around a long time and I understand the pluses and minuses of the Military mindset that the Air Cadets operate under and have no intention of becoming involved in the politics that drive their world.

As to tail wheel airplanes and wheel landings I personally do not ever, ever check out a pilot on tail wheel airplanes unless they are equally competent in both wheel landings and three point landings.

I look forward to the day when I see an Air Cadet Cessna 182 towplane with your name painted on the cowling.

I would not allow them to put my name on an airplane or glider that I gave them, I am not wired that way, my reward is knowing I did something that will benefit the kids.

[Cat Driver]

If I may be so bold, I'd consider having a lawyer involved and establish your bequest as a trust, reviewed from time to time to ensure your good work has not been taken for granted or abused should someone "weasely" rise to higher ranks of the Air Cadets, prematurely sell off "your airplane," and arbitrarily decide to use the funds for something with which you'd fundamentally disagree.

That is probably the best suggestion yet Fog, it will protect my investment so I can die knowing where my hard earned money will be going.

Now all I have to do is go earn it.

[challydriver]

I couldn't agree with you more about training on a conventional (tailwheel) aircraft. Pilots should be able to do both three point & wheel landings in order to be considered competent.

To be fair, the Air Cadet Gliding Schools do not provide initial tailwheel training on the L-19s or Scouts. They only provide a checkout on type and then the training/checkout to be a towpilot. It works the same way at the gliding club I belong to. To be a towpilot, you must have tailwheel training/time from somewhere else as their is nobody in our club who will give you your initial tailwheel training on our towplane. I'm sure our club is like many others. It is not in the business of training pilots on how to fly tailwheel aircraft, only to check them out as towpilots.

Regardless, there are a couple of reasons that I can think of as to why the Air Cadets (and my gliding club as well) prefer to have the towplane do three point versus wheel landings.

Most of the time we operate from turf runways (1800-2500 feet). If the towplane is going to drop the rope at the launch point of the runway (like the Air Cadets do), the landing field length becomes shorter the towplane. A three point landing in the L-19 does produce a shorter landing roll.

When we also have concerns about the field conditions (wet, rough, short), there is a slightly less chance of a nose-over when using a three point landing.

In a busy gliding operation, the turn around time for the towplane is considered somewhat important when there's gliders waiting to be launched. Of course turn around time does not override safety in any operation. In a two glider operation, like the Air Cadets use at their fam-sites the towplane is usually launching as the other glider is in the circuit. At the summer camp this becomes even more complex when you introduce another towplane and two more gliders. Again, a three point landing in the L-19 does produce a shorter landing roll.

Another interesting fact is the glider(s) usually reach their crosswind limits for takeoff (and landing) well before the towplane does. This means that for most landings, especially on turf runway the L-19 can be landed three point before the gliding operation shuts down for the crosswind.

In our club's operation we (try) to operate the L-19s using their STOL capabilities as much possible. This means landing with Flaps 60 and flying the approach at 60 MPH all leading to a three point landing. It makes for shorter landings and shorter turn around times for the operation. I've seen our most experienced pilots do this over and over again never making a wheel landing.

Now, I've researched this specifically for the L-19 and heard/seen many pilots who have tamed the Birddog that "you should be able to three point the L-19 right up to it's maximum crosswind limit."

In all fairness, I think the Air Cadet's SOP for the use wheel landings in the towplane is fine for their operations but having said that...

I think everyone should know how & when to make wheel landings.

[Cat Driver]

I think everyone should know how & when to make wheel landings.

That is the bottom line.

Different airplanes require different handling and that will be the criteria for what method you use on any given landing.

H O W E V E R:::

A pilot flying a tail wheel airplane must be equally proficient in either landing method....

P E R I O D.

[robertsailor1]

No disagreement on being able to wheel land but if your operating out of rougher sod airstrips its much easier on the aircraft to three point it. Years ago in Saskatoon they were towing the gliders with a PA-20 Pacer and while its not the greatest tow machine it was getting the job done. The pilot was wheel landing it every time in a fairly rough part of the field and it was no surprise that on the hundred hour inspection they found cracks in the gear leg attachment fittings. In stiff crosswinds and smooth runways and certain aircraft types wheel landings are just fine but on average most tail wheel aircraft are better landed three point, my opinion of course.

[bmc]

Here is a link to a webcam at my favorite field here in Switzerland. The field is in a town called Bex. Our time zone is six hours behind Toronto. The field has a lot of glider activity. Two tow planes, a Maule and a Super Cub.

Sorry for the hijack, but you guys love flying. Lots of activity here on Sunday with interesting one of a kinds on the field.

Open up another window and hit the refresh button, while your chatting on this thread.

.....really admirable thing you're doing.

http://lesmartinets.dyndns.org/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi

[RatherBeFlying]

Note to new Bird Dog back seat flyers: Check the stick is fastened.

Or find out it's not turning final and pulling a bit of back stick -- probably a better deal than finding out in the flare.

[Cat Driver]

In stiff crosswinds and smooth runways and certain aircraft types wheel landings are just fine but on average most tail wheel aircraft are better landed three point, my opinion of course.

I can think of three tail wheel airplanes that were uncomfortable to three point and were almost always wheel landed.

The DC3, the Beech 18 and the Anson Mk5. In fact I never had the balls to try and three point the Anson.

[Waldo Peppar]

Cat Driver,
I sent you a PM wrt your trip East
WP