The battle of the low-time pilot

[DaveC]

Hey all,

I'm a low time PPL (got my license last Fall) with just under 100 TT. I've had a hell of a time trying to get a hold of block time in the last 3 months. I was on a 150, which was a great little airplane (needed engine overhaul so its not getting fixed) and since I haven't been able to get on anything else.

Finding an airplane was a challenge, calling over 100 people who could be interested in it. Of the 100, about 5 were interested. Insurance stopped each one of from happening (either jacking up their rates, which is fine because I offered to pay the difference) OR dropped their liability from 1 million to 100,000 (most people weren't comfortable with that).

I have been trying to set up a float rating with various owners with CPLs (which is not possible because of my time) as well, no avail.

So AvCanada, what does a low time PPL do in this situation. The obvious course of action would be to rent from a FTU (which is my last resort-option because the Air Cadets will be here in a month and dominate the airplanes). Any other suggestions?

I have around $25,000 in saved cash. I was thinking about potentially buying a 150 in the states (would I have the same insurance problems?) and importing it.

[Dagwood]

I'm sure I've read on these forums before:
1. Be very wary of buying a plane and importing it. Not saying it's impossible, but do your homework.
2. $25,000 isn't going to go far in aircraft ownership.
3. While you're building time anyway, make sure you get in your 25 night PIC Cross-country hours required for the ATPL.

Did you think about buying a 150 (or similar) with a couple other buddies also looking to build time?

[DaveC]

I'm sure I've read on these forums before:
1. Be very wary of buying a plane and importing it. Not saying it's impossible, but do your homework.
2. $25,000 isn't going to go far in aircraft ownership.
3. While you're building time anyway, make sure you get in your 25 night PIC Cross-country hours required for the ATPL.

Did you think about buying a 150 (or similar) with a couple other buddies also looking to build time?

Hey Dag, thanks for your response.

I have been trying to get my night rating done but I haven't been able to get time on an aircraft.

If I bought a 150 id hope to have it be a partnership (probably 50/50) or potentially sell block time to other pilots.

[Bede]

If you buy an aircraft in the US, figure on $5-10k for the import (yes it costs that much even though you don't believe me). I've seen many imports.

Go for a partnership to keep fixed costs down. From my experience, owning an airplane for time building will save you money provided you spend the money to buy one in top mechanical shape.

[Luscombe]

If you're looking at possibly buying an airplane to build time on, have you considered perhaps getting something like a Cessna 120/140 or a Champ or Luscombe? I bought a Luscombe for a whole lot less money (in Canada) and found it to be one of the best moves I ever made. I built my hours quickly and had a LOT of fun in the process. When it came time to do my commercial, I found a freelancer that had no problem with a little 65 horsepower taildragger. I did everything in it, did my flight test and didn't have the heart to let my baby go. To make a long story short, I now have an ATPL, fly 737's for a living and STILL have my Luscombe. I tell the guys that I can hardly wait for my days off when I can go to a REAL airport and fly a REAL airplane again.

If you choose to go this route, I highly recommend paying some decent money to an AME to do a pre-purchase inspection for you. A simple airplane like a Champ or Luscombe doesn't have a lot of toys onboard, but then again it doesn't have a lot of gizmos to break either.

Drop me a PM if you want to go this way. By the way, my Luscombe isn't for sale and probably won't be for a long time to come, so it's off limits.

[Shiny Side Up]

If you choose to go this route, I highly recommend paying some decent money to an AME to do a pre-purchase inspection for you. A simple airplane like a Champ or Luscombe doesn't have a lot of toys onboard, but then again it doesn't have a lot of gizmos to break either.

Its unfortunate that there aren't more people who see this and choose to go this route. There would be a whole lot more aviating going on out there if people did, which would be a great boon for the GA community. To each their own I guess, I just find it too bad when so many GA pilots out there are of the mindset that they can't make use of anything that isn't equipped with four seats and dual 430s.

[Luscombe]

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention.... when you say to some folks around the airport that you're considering buying a taildragger, don't listen to the "there's only two kinds of taildragger pilots; those that have groundlooped and those who will". I can tell you that it is total bullshit and comes from the mouths of those who either have never flown a taildragger or flew it for an hour or two and scared themselves silly. It's not impossible to handle, just different.

If you do choose to go this route, just make sure you get a GOOD checkout by a competent instructor or at least someone with a lot of tailwheel time under his belt. There is no such thing as a "tailwheel endorsement" in Canada and don't let some smooth talking instructor at the local flying club convince you otherwise.

Just my .02 Euros worth.

[trampbike]

Where do you live Dave?
Close to Montréal (Beloeil) there is a great flying club: http://www.aeroclubfb.com

I've been a member of that club since they began in the fall of 2009 and have only good things to say about it!

[akoch]

I've just gotten my airplane through the importation process from the states. The bill indeed was 5k. And this was a simple airplane, comparable to a 152. If I had all the stuff in order (like equipment list etc) it would have been less.

Otherwise it was not difficult.

[trey kule]

You can find some nice 85hp j3 cubs for sale for $35k.. Bring in a partner and you have enough money for insurance, and flying. No need to import. No electrical system. Simple so no real surprises, and about $30 hr/for gas. When you are building hours you dont need to go fast anywhere.

If you think the cub is not what it is all about, keep in mind that until not to long ago , the Isreali air force did all their primary training in them.

[iflyforpie]

A big +1 on getting a small tail dragger.

I would recommend steering away from Cubs simply because of their inflated price (from 25 to 50% more than other comparable aircraft).

My favourites are the Taylorcraft BC12D and the Aeronca 7AC. In their purest form they will have no electrics, a 65-85 hp engine, and sip around 4GPH. Get an iCom handheld with a battery powered intercom for you 'avionics suite' and you are all set for the best fun you can have with your clothes on.

Other than filing it occasionally with fuel and oil (most are happiest with a mix of 25% 100LL and 75% MOGAS) just keep the fabric nice. There is nothing else really to go wrong with these aircraft. The low operating costs should encourage you to do the best preventative maintenance there is--flying it.

[down north]

Hello DaveCachia,

Where are you located?

I recently bough a 1976 Cessna 150M here in Canada for $15,000. The engine is mid time, under 5000 hours on the airframe and the bird is in very good shape considering it had not flown for several years. Prior to purchasing the airplane I was very hesitant. I had a mechanic perform a pre-purchase inspection and surprisingly the cost to get the aircraft airworthy was under $2000 including an annual inspection.

The purpose of buying the aircraft was to finish flight training. I am no where near a flight school. This was the cheapest and only option for me. I am surprised how low my operating costs are on a C150. I pay half of what I would to rent one for from a flight school. This includes all costs including fuel, oil, engine, avionics & equipment overhaul contingency, insurance, etc.

I would be willing to rent my aircraft for block time rentals.

My question is if I do this does the renter need to become part owner or does the aircraft need to be registered and operated commercially?

[DaveC]

Hi all,

I am located in CYOO (Oshawa). I have been in contact with a 150 owner. I've purchased a block for a very reasonable amount (will be saving atleast $50 an hour from a school plane) and if all goes well will be offered partnership on the aircraft. Not a bad gig considering the owner doesn't fly it often

I'm going to try and do some serious time building and hope that I can get insured on the other aircraft for when I want to bring PAX.

[Beefitarian]

I wonder if it would be possible in places like YYZ and YYC to start some flying clubs. Have like 1000 $2 shares in what ever planes the group chooses a couple of diamonds or C-182s/C-172s, etc. Ownership shares would be seperate from club membership and would be an investment with a possibility for a return if the club wanted to place a return fee in the rental. That would make it more attractive and easier to find people willing to put up the cost of shares knowing they might make money instead of losing it if the value of the aircraft goes down.

Club membership would be an aproximate split of the fixed costs per year. Hanger, CofA and a few other fixed cost things.
Hourly rental rates would be based on fixed costs divided by hobbes time. They would be reviewed quarterly and go up and down slightly depending on what has to be paid for maintanence wise and if the club votes to buy something or hire someone to dispatch or what have you.

The planes would be dry rental and must be returned full tanks.

Everyone could volunteer to do dispatch in pairs (two people would reduce shenanagins) everyone could commit to one day at a time every few months to spread the job out. Dispatch would be where you hang around the office and sign a booking sheet with the renter, making sure the planes are returned on time, full of fuel and snag free or reported.

If there were some members that enjoyed hanging around and doing dispatch others could trade off their days with them. Possibly the club could hire a retired person or someone at minimum wage for week days. Though personally I'd rather see volunteers to keep costs to a minimum.

[DaveC]

I wonder if it would be possible in places like YYZ and YYC to start some flying clubs. Have like 1000 $2 shares in what ever planes the group chooses a couple of diamonds or C-182s/C-172s, etc. Ownership shares would be seperate from club membership and would be an investment with a possibility for a return if the club wanted to place a return fee in the rental. That would make it more attractive and easier to find people willing to put up the cost of shares knowing they might make money instead of losing it if the value of the aircraft goes down.

Club membership would be an aproximate split of the fixed costs per year. Hanger, CofA and a few other fixed cost things.
Hourly rental rates would be based on fixed costs divided by hobbes time. They would be reviewed quarterly and go up and down slightly depending on what has to be paid for maintanence wise and if the club votes to buy something or hire someone to dispatch or what have you.

The planes would be dry rental and must be returned full tanks.

Everyone could volunteer to do dispatch in pairs (two people would reduce shenanagins) everyone could commit to one day at a time every few months to spread the job out. Dispatch would be where you hang around the office and sign a booking sheet with the renter, making sure the planes are returned on time, full of fuel and snag free or reported.

If there were some members that enjoyed hanging around and doing dispatch others could trade off their days with them. Possibly the club could hire a retired person or someone at minimum wage for week days. Though personally I'd rather see volunteers to keep costs to a minimum.

Doesn't sound bad. I think once Buttonville shuts down someone should start something like this out of YOO.

[trey kule]

flying club in Calgary..Now that would be a good thing., though maybe Okotoks or springbank would be better.
You can use the internet to dispatch..Simple easy program

Good luck with starting one. It would be a big boost for general aviation to have a club..There are some in BC that function well, and could probably share some tips. You need some toothless old wonders to do the non flying grunt work and teach the youngins how to lie, and some youngins to fly...

[Grantmac]

There is no more fun aircraft to fly then my little fabric taildragger.
The costs are nearly on par with renting a 150 however so if its just time building you are after then look elsewhere. But if you want to look back on those hours and really feel like they have taught you something then its a really good option to consider.
Now is the best time to learn how to fly proper aircraft, while your brain is still in learn mode and your feet haven't gone into hibernation.

-Grant

[Cat Driver]

Now is the best time to learn how to fly proper aircraft, while your brain is still in learn mode and your feet haven't gone into hibernation.

At what time in your life span does this occur?

[Grantmac]

Now is the best time to learn how to fly proper aircraft, while your brain is still in learn mode and your feet haven't gone into hibernation.

At what time in your life span does this occur?

I'd say it totally depends on the person. One thing is certain, thundering around in a 150 for a few hundred hours isn't going to make the precess any easier and will probably do the opposite.

-Grant

[DaveC]

Now is the best time to learn how to fly proper aircraft, while your brain is still in learn mode and your feet haven't gone into hibernation.

At what time in your life span does this occur?

I'd say it totally depends on the person. One thing is certain, thundering around in a 150 for a few hundred hours isn't going to make the precess any easier and will probably do the opposite.

-Grant

I had the opportunity to fly a C-170 around (first hour tail time) and while it was difficult, it was fun. The problem is that there is no chance (unless I buy one) that I will find tail time for less than hours on a 150 would cost me. There are plenty of tail draggers in Oshawa (cubs and Luscombes) but the insurance would never fly (one being because I am low time) and two, i'd have no time on type.

[Cat Driver]

I'd say it totally depends on the person. One thing is certain, thundering around in a 150 for a few hundred hours isn't going to make the precess any easier and will probably do the opposite.

Agreed.

[down north]

Quote:
I'd say it totally depends on the person. One thing is certain, thundering around in a 150 for a few hundred hours isn't going to make the precess any easier and will probably do the opposite.


Agreed.

What if the said Cessna 150 were to have a tail wheel conversion, a 150 HP upgrade and 29" Alaska bush wheels and skis in the winter such as this one:







I'd say you can learn a thing or two flying this machine and keep up your stick and rudder skills.

[fish4life]

That's one nice 150

[Cat Driver]

Nice airplane down north.

I converted a 150 Aerobat a few years ago to the Texas Taildragger long gear STC, but kept the 100 H.P. engine.

I sold it to a close friend three years ago and had a hell of a time finding a flight instructor to do his PPL on it.

[Grantmac]

Those converted 150s are almost too easy to fly, at least the one I got to play with was. Pussycat would be the term I'd use, it still had that Cessna feet on the floor handling.
I shudder to think what the (official) useful load would be after the bigger motor and rearranging the gear.

What are the major insurance problems your having?
I'm operating an N-numbered aircraft on a certificate of equivalence recognizing my Canadian PPL, insurance was a total non-issue even with 130TT and under 20hrs total tailwheel time.
The situation in Canada can't be that much worse? I was just talking with a guy who had a PA-16 like mine in Vancouver that he bought for time building and didn't have any issue getting insured.

-Grant