FP today

[Norwegianwood]

AND "D Day" is the 6th of June...........

http://www.financialpost.com/news/Flahe ... story.html

[Darkwing Duck]

And your point is?????

[Norwegianwood]

When the budget is passed (by majority) you and the rest of Canada will finally have caught up with the rest of the sane world (except acpa and a.c.) and be able to work past 60!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

When the budget is passed (by majority) you and the rest of Canada will finally have caught up with the rest of the sane world (except acpa and a.c.) and be able to work past 60!

I don't want to burst your bubble, but the fact is that the federal Budget is nothing more than a policy statement of proposed law. The government definitely plans to repeal the mandatory retirement exemption of the CHRA, as I understand the situation. And it may make a repeat confirmation of that intention in the Budget speech.

But laws are changed only through the process of introducing Bills in Parliament and having them pass through due process, including second reading, Committee, final reading, Senate and proclamation. Given the government's current agenda it is likely that the Bill to repeal the mandatory retirement exemption of the CHRA will not likely even be introduced until the fall. From there it will go to Committee, and return to Parliament, then proceed to the Senate.

One of the provisos in the previous Bill was that there would be a 12 month period from enactment until coming into force. That will likely be applied to the new Bill as well. Which means that we are looking at Fall, 2012, at the earliest, for the legislation to become effective.

That does not, however, change the writing on the wall. It will happen, and we should govern ourselves accordingly.

[Norwegianwood]

Blah, blah, blah, blah............

Same result!

'nuf

[V1ummmm]

Hey, just a question from somebody outside the sitution watching you buzzards circle. Where were your voices 20 years ago when you were skating up the ranks in the wake of those who respected your contract? In (trying to) read through all this nonsense, I get the feeling that some of you actually think your greed has been coloured over by the thin veil of altruism.

Why doesn't the company kill two birds and let you stay... at the low cost carrier on CARs min schedules?. Then everybody could be satisfied.

[Rockie]

Hey, just a question from somebody outside the sitution watching you buzzards circle. Where were your voices 20 years ago when you were skating up the ranks in the wake of those who respected your contract? In (trying to) read through all this nonsense, I get the feeling that some of you actually think your greed has been coloured over by the thin veil of altruism.

Twenty years ago I was nowhere near this issue, and nowhere near Air Canada. Now that I am here I am still very junior and nowhere near retirement, but I think you'll agree that I'm pretty vocal about it regardless. So I don't believe that criticism has much application to me in the first place. In the second, that criticism has nothing to do with the issue and will have absolutely no bearing on how it is resolved. So why waste time thinking about it?

Air Canada pilots have for the most part based their arguments on their distaste for the people contesting mandatory retirement as you have here, and have given little to no thought about the actual issue. That's why despite getting their asses handed to them repeatedly they still think they're going to win. Just recently ACPA was still bragging about their imaginary successes when they are about to get run down by the train.

Why doesn't the company kill two birds and let you stay... at the low cost carrier on CARs min schedules?. Then everybody could be satisfied.

They could have done that twenty years ago and people might have been satisfied, but you're forgetting something. Forcing people out of their jobs or amending their working conditions based on age is now discriminatory, whereas it wasn't twenty years ago. Why do so many people still not get that?

[accumulous]

Where were your voices 20 years ago when you were skating up the ranks in the wake of those who respected your contract?

You cannot file a legal complaint until the day after you are forced out the door. You may also be permitted to file that legal complaint once your name is formally removed from the Equipment Bid List which can precede the above by as much as several months. Prior to either of those events, your complaint is not registered or considered.

Those are the rules.

Therefore, the Union or whatever you want to call it, is in the position, in the absence of a Reliable Wind Check, of paying for half the wages of force retired pilots on sabbatical while they await reinstatement, if what we have already signed onto in previous Rulings bears any consequence.

Our brilliant strategy is clearly to arrive at the scene of the crash first, and then wait for the nuthouse collection of pieces to get here.

The CAW and IAM both recognized the sheer folly of that arrangement, in about a nanosecond, and, on the advice of their lawyers, arranged to end Mandatory Retirement in their own back yards, to the benefit of all their Members, and handed the onus for the payroll squarely back to the Corporation where it belongs.

We on the other hand, having been obviously born with our umbilical cords wrapped around our necks just long enough to make the room we’re in get blurry, are content to summarily screw ourselves out of a full pension and become the Payroll Department all at the same time.

We have collectively taken the brains of Rocket Science to an all-time low.

The Wernher Von Braun Science Prize will not be awarded to anybody in this camp, ever, because you get zero points for blowing up on the pad and falling over on your side, in clear view of the rest of the planet.

[flyinhigh]

From the outside looking in, WOW.

Your MEC chair was fired, Negots team quitting, and all the other bullshit that is going on within ACPA with negots and such and your all still worring about Flypast 60.

How about worrying about how to protect your WAWCON. Oh wait that ship sailed with Sky Regional,

The way things are going, there won't be an Air Canada in 15 years anyway meaning no pension.

Flame away

[WetJet]

The way things are going, there won't be an Air Canada in 15 years anyway meaning no pension.

Flame away

Here's what it will look like by 2020:

All Turboprop flying shared by Sky Regional, CMA, and GGN etc
Regional Jet flying (including EMB) at Jazz
Long Haul flying all done by the new LCC
No more AC, so no pension liability to worry about.

Prove me wrong boys.

[hopper]

Predictions all correct...except GGN will take over Sky Regional and buy out CMA. Porter will fail or (if it happens) the Halifax base will be bought out. Pilot wages in airline work will continue to slide downward and most carriers will have a "cadet" style entry program where inexeperience can justify low wages and fill pilot vacanicies. Very few will be dumb enough to fork over $80,000 for training for a $23,000 job that never pays off and has you away from family for two weeks of every month. I heard we currently issue half the licences we did 10 years ago? Relevant pilot experience for modern flying platforms is no longer born from anything other than direct entry to flight management systems, glass cockpits and CRM. Managing these platforms is a skill that most younger computer aged kids can be trained for in a simulator and where not becoming part of the computer is a detriment to performance. I.E human pilots will generally not be smart enough to ever warrant much deviation from system instructions and SOPs..as is the case now. Outside of commuter and airline flying things will probably not change that much and wages may increase. There will be much less crossing over from these jobs to airline work, primarily due to pay and training.

The mess at AC will be a major restructuring. I see WestJet and GGN as most stable and poised for long term growth and survival. Some form of AC, some form of Jazz as the more stable companies.

But I'm just a dumb pilot smart enough to have business outside of aviation. It will be an interesting ride with opportunity, but a tough pill to swallow for many of us.

[scopiton]

Predictions all correct...except GGN will take over Sky Regional and buy out CMA. Porter will fail or (if it happens) the Halifax base will be bought out. Pilot wages in airline work will continue to slide downward and most carriers will have a "cadet" style entry program where inexeperience can justify low wages and fill pilot vacanicies. Very few will be dumb enough to fork over $80,000 for training for a $23,000 job that never pays off and has you away from family for two weeks of every month. I heard we currently issue half the licences we did 10 years ago? Relevant pilot experience for modern flying platforms is no longer born from anything other than direct entry to flight management systems, glass cockpits and CRM. Managing these platforms is a skill that most younger computer aged kids can be trained for in a simulator and where not becoming part of the computer is a detriment to performance. I.E human pilots will generally not be smart enough to ever warrant much deviation from system instructions and SOPs..as is the case now. Outside of commuter and airline flying things will probably not change that much and wages may increase. There will be much less crossing over from these jobs to airline work, primarily due to pay and training.

ectasy, L.S.D., coke, beer or ??

[MacDoo]

Pilot wages in airline work will continue to slide downward and most carriers will have a "cadet" style entry program where inexeperience can justify low wages and fill pilot vacanicies. Very few will be dumb enough to fork over $80,000 for training for a $23,000 job that never pays off and has you away from family for two weeks of every month....

...And with reduced experience levels, the travelling public will be dumbfounded when the industry experiences some of the worst airline disasters in history. You would think that the travelling masses would be 100% behind their pilots getting paid for their experience (at least paid more than the F/A's).

[Canoehead]

Pilot wages in airline work will continue to slide downward and most carriers will have a "cadet" style entry program where inexeperience can justify low wages and fill pilot vacanicies. Very few will be dumb enough to fork over $80,000 for training for a $23,000 job that never pays off and has you away from family for two weeks of every month....

...And with reduced experience levels, the travelling public will be dumbfounded when the industry experiences some of the worst airline disasters in history. You would think that the travelling masses would be 100% behind their pilots getting paid for their experience (at least paid more than the F/A's).

Nope. The traveling public will certainly watch the horrific news on CNN and CBCNW and PBS- and be appalled and feel terrible. But they will be the first ones on Hotwire or Cheap-Tickets looking for the lowest fares available.

[James Delgaty]

Actually D-day was more than that,

The fact you tried to tie this to this thread disgusts me. Have any of you ever been to Juno beach?

All of my family was there on D-day, they were not there fighting for pilot wages or pensions. Medic on D-day, his pay was increased, went from a 50 cents to a dollar, just to land on the beach. So to all you posting without giving any thought, I might suggest you site back and think.

They were young men giving there lives for something greater. I really wish we had that dignity. To all those that have served, AUS, NZ, and Canadian along with all the rest on that day Thanks. You have my gratitude, respect and I will always fight for your honor. If you have never been to the memorial it might be time for you to go. Never again compare our fight to what they did as there is no comparison and never will be.

James

[Rockie]

Actually D-day was more than that

I think people know that James. No reason to blow a gasket.

[Norwegianwood]

Actually D-day was more than that,

The fact you tried to tie this to this thread disgusts me. Have any of you ever been to Juno beach?

All of my family was there on D-day, they were not there fighting for pilot wages or pensions. Medic on D-day, his pay was increased, went from a 50 cents to a dollar, just to land on the beach. So to all you posting without giving any thought, I might suggest you site back and think.

They were young men giving there lives for something greater. I really wish we had that dignity. To all those that have served, AUS, NZ, and Canadian along with all the rest on that day Thanks. You have my gratitude, respect and I will always fight for your honor. If you have never been to the memorial it might be time for you to go. Never again compare our fight to what they did as there is no comparison and never will be.

James

Couldn't agree more James, they were fighting for freedom and rights! Something acpa doesn't seem to agree with for ALL.... Just a select few inner circle "little boys club"

[mbav8r]

I have heard the term used many times and have never taken offence to it, I wasn't there, but I do have a full appreciation for the lives that were lost for freedom. I don't know you Mr. Delgaty, but you might want to relax and not get so wound up about a generally used term, for an important event.

D-Day is a term often used in military parlance to denote the day on which a combat attack or operation is to be initiated. "D-Day" often represents a variable, designating the day upon which some significant event will occur or has occurred. source wikipedia

www.nationalww2museum.org
Many explanations have been given for the meaning of D-Day, June 6, 1944, the day the Allies invaded Normandy from England during World War II. The Army has said that it is “simply an alliteration, as in H-Hour.” Others say the first D in the word also stands for “day,” the term a code designation. The French maintain the D means “disembarkation,” still others say “debarkation,” and the more poetic insist D-Day is short for “day of decision.” When someone wrote to General Eisenhower in 1964 asking for an explanation, his executive assistant Brigadier General Robert Schultz answered: “General Eisenhower asked me to respond to your letter. Be advised that any amphibious operation has a ‘departed date’; therefore the shortened term ‘D-Day’ is used.” (p.146)

[777longhaul]

Back to the FP60 subject

The Federal Budget today, (June 6 2011) showed this information on pages 113 and 122.

Quote from the budget:

Eliminating the Mandatory Retirement AgeCanadians are living longer, more active lives than ever before. Those who wish to remain active in the labour force should be able to do so for as long as they desire, enriching the workplace with their accumulated knowledgeand experience. The Government proposes to introduce amendments to the CanadianHuman Rights Act and the Canada Labour Code to prohibit federally regulated employers from setting a mandatory retirement age unless thereis a bona fide occupational requirement. This would allow Canadians tochoose how long they wish to remain active in the labour force. TheGovernment will review other acts to further this objective.

end quote.

AC and acpa have already lost the BFOR issue, with V/K.

acpa, can not use the BFOR issue, as they are NOT an employeer. That leaves AC only, and they have lost the BFOR issue before the CHRT and the Federal Court.

[MackTheKnife]

Back to the FP60 subject

The Federal Budget today, (June 6 2011) showed this information on pages 113 and 122.

Quote from the budget:

Eliminating the Mandatory Retirement AgeCanadians are living longer, more active lives than ever before. Those who wish to remain active in the labour force should be able to do so for as long as they desire, enriching the workplace with their accumulated knowledgeand experience. The Government proposes to introduce amendments to the CanadianHuman Rights Act and the Canada Labour Code to prohibit federally regulated employers from setting a mandatory retirement age unless thereis a bona fide occupational requirement. This would allow Canadians tochoose how long they wish to remain active in the labour force. TheGovernment will review other acts to further this objective.

end quote.

AC and acpa have already lost the BFOR issue, with V/K.

acpa, can not use the BFOR issue, as they are NOT an employeer. That leaves AC only, and they have lost the BFOR issue before the CHRT and the Federal Court.

Any one with a brain has seen this coming for years. Any bets ACPA will keep up the fight? LMAO

[Rockie]

The government has dropped the bomb and this will have MASSIVE implications going into our next attempt at contract negotiations. The Air Canada pilot's forum should be alive with discussion on how to use this to our advantage, but the extremely short thread announcing it stopped dead with two posts asserting that it will not apply to us for absurdly irrational reasons.

Why is that?

Could it be because the few people who have tried to generate critical thinking on this issue utterly failed, and have completely given up in the face of a vitriolic membership and union more interested in attacking the messenger than dealing with the reality?

Unless the union grows a brain and a set of balls the membership will never discuss it, and we will not only miss a great opportunity but we will have our marching orders dictated to us with absolutely no influence over what they say.

[yycflyguy]

Rockie, why not share your views on the subject there?

I don't think the comments were absurd. Just the other side of the coin. We all know you don't agree with it but many believe that the ability to retire at 60 is a benefit which our predecessors paid for in subsequent contracts. Heading into negotiations V2.0, I agree that this should be addressed and debated.

[Rockie]

Rockie, why not share your views on the subject there?

Previous attempts of individuals to do that were met with hostility as you know, and further attempts to do so have all but stopped. At this stage only the union can initiate this conversation.

We all know you don't agree with it but many believe that the ability to retire at 60 is a benefit which our predecessors paid for in subsequent contracts.

Actually I do agree with the ability to retire at 60. In fact if the union could negotiate an increase in benefits and an ability to retire at 55 that would be even better. What I don't agree with is forcing someone to retire at 60 irrespective of their ability to do the job, and neither does the Federal Government, Provincial Governments, CHRT or the Federal Court. The two are not the same and you should be able to see that. Nobody wants, or has suggested in any way that our ability to retire anytime we want should be impeded. Quite the opposite.

I don't think the comments were absurd. Just the other side of the coin.

What coin? Nowhere in the budget is there fine print suggesting DB pension plan holders will be exempt from this change in law. Nowhere does it say a majority vote of union members supercedes Canadian Law, or excludes us as federally regulated employees. It is wishful (and wasteful) thinking.

[accumulous]

We all know you don't agree with it but many believe that the ability to retire at 60 is a benefit which our predecessors paid for in subsequent contracts. Heading into negotiations V2.0, I agree that this should be addressed and debated.

There won’t be anything addressed and debated.

That entire script was handed to the Feds by ACPA about 6 years ago when they came to the sudden realization they had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

ACPA is still laboring under the gross misconception that they’re driving the stage coach, but a team of strong horses in Ottawa is just simply taking ACPA to the end of the line. We’re all sitting there on the front end of the buckboard sort of staring straight ahead out over the horses and blinking and trying to look intelligent like we’re actually controlling this goat festival, but there’s really nothing going on upstairs whatsoever. Nada.

You can go at 55 – you can go at 60 – you can go past 60 – you can go any time you want – you can even go today on 24 hours notice – but you can’t tell anybody else when they’re going. That’s the gist of it.

You can certainly try to force people out to get your own butt up the list, but you can’t. That music stopped years ago. ACPA just never noticed how quiet it got amid all the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, lynchings, infighting, circle jerk inbreeding over the contract, etc. That multi-million dollar Age 60 gong show is over with, and there’s nothing left but the screaming and yelling, quite a bit of mass confusion, and the tab.

[Rockie]

We all know you don't agree with it but many believe that the ability to retire at 60 is a benefit which our predecessors paid for in subsequent contracts.

This also bears repeating for the 100th time. What I believe, or you believe, or anybody at Air Canada believes is irrelevant. Whether we agree with it or not was never, at any time, going to change the inevitable outcome of this. Canadian society has evolved and we have been deluding ourselves thinking that we are important enough to stop it or that we could somehow live in a retroactive bubble.

That refusal to deal with it has put us six years behind the times in terms of preparation not to mention the as yet undetermined monetary cost.

That's why I am vocal about it, and I would be just as vocal no matter how I personally felt about the retirement issue. We cannot continue to think with our head up our ass.