No ACPA signature on AC Union Pension Solidarity Pact

[rudder]

http://www.iam140.ca/userfiles/file/pen ... onpact.pdf

[turbo-beaver]

Why am I not surprised? It was not difficult to see that the T/A screwed our pension benefits but yet almost 1000 pliots still thought the TA was a good deal.

What concerned me the most, and probably the major reason, there is no Negotiations Committee at this time, was that this was an agreement, " reached outside the normal bargaining process, essentially a back room deal the the MEC Chair and a few of his cronies, who were obviously destined for management positions should the TA have passed. I guess it is only human nature to want to jump onto the bandwagon when they saw the great pension benefits management still has, and the great bonuses they get every year as well.

Personally, I think, it is time to wind up ACPA, and have a certification vote and get rid of the whole bunch. And that should include Rick and Bill and all advisors who had their sticky fingers into this deal.

Get a union that will sign onto the pension agreement and fight for it and not make any back room deals.

[accumulous]

Get a union that will sign onto the pension agreement and fight for it and not make any back room deals.

This is an absolutely stunning revelation.

No signature.

Sheer madness at play.

Unlike the other unions at AC, and indeed every other Airline on the North American continent, in a futile effort to get even one single solitary seniority number out of the completely futile Certified Nutbar Strategy of trying to continue to force retirement at age 60, which in and of itself ultimately prevents almost every pilot on the list from achieving their maximum under the Defined Benefit Plan, we are completely willing to not only blow holes through both feet of the entire pilot group but to completely sacrifice the Defined Benefit Plan, which would in fact survive under the ‘other’ strategy, all in order to sewer our own collective future at work.

A crystal clear example of Cranial Suicide.

The ‘Head Shed’ is utterly void of speed, altitude, and ideas, all at the same time, tail first, into the dirt.

[vortac]

A black eye for ACPA.
It almost makes sense too... 1/3 of AC pilots support the DC pension garbage for everyone but themselves.

Thankfully 2/3 are still thinking about more than just themselves.

[yyz monkey]

A black eye for ACPA.

The question is did ACPA actually say no to signing on with the rest of us, or is it because the MEC was recently turfed and there is only interim leadership that they didn't?

[rudder]

If I was CR, I would be looking for the weak link in the union front on DB pension. Guess where I would look first?

[FADEC]

ACPA is not part of this Pact, because ACPA leadership does not understand basic arithmetic. Agreeing to allow more and more flying to be done outside the Mainline means they don't understand the question. Another clear example is provided by the continued assertion by ACPA that ending Mandatory Retirement would destroy the Pension; when the exact opposite is true.

Air Canada has managers that purport to be "Experts", but have demonstrated in Hearings that they don't know their subject, and don't follow proper business methodology to determine a course of action: the chosen method is to first decide the answer, then create the question. Sound familiar? Ex ACPA Execs will fit right in!

As an early supporter of ACPA it pains me to state the obvious. The Contract is open. All that needs to be done to change Unions, is sign members up. That is how ACPA was created in the beginning; get on with it! I am certain that ALPA would provide all the details and assistance required, after all, they are Professionals!

[vic777]

The Contract is open. All that needs to be done to change Unions, is sign members up. That is how ACPA was created in the beginning; get on with it! I am certain that ALPA would provide all the details and assistance required, after all, they are Professionals!

This would be the best possible first step to protecting the integrity of the AC Pilot group. Somebody call ALPA Headquarters and get the ball rolling on this!

[rudder]

There are 2 ways that the AC pilots could migrate to ALPA representation.

One is during the 'open' period (now). ALPA could run a card drive and if they were able to collect 35% or more signed cards, could petition the CIRB for a representation ballot to displace ACPA.

The other is at any time, the AC pilots (majority) could direct ACPA to enter into negotiations to merge ACPA into ALPA.

In either case, there must be:

- a critical mass of pilots that want alternative representation

- soldiers on the ground willing to provide information about ALPA

- leadership

The ACPA founders are familiar with this process as they used it to get the AC pilots out of CALPA.

[prop2jet]

For what it's worth, Capt Moak (President of ALPA) has more or less made it known to the Canadian Contingent that his focus is getting AC back to the fold. Such as it is besides "strength in numbers" it is also about the $$$. ALPA has a lot of great resources that can be provided, however as I am sure many already know, the Union you have is only as good as the quality and integrity of those who step up to volunteer.

Looking outside in, having quite a few friends at AC, I hear much about a divided group with different objectives. There is common ground on certain issues, however as I see it, changing affiliation is not going to solve any of these problems unless there is a willingness amongst the membership to resolve these conflicts or lay them to rest once and for all. Until this is accomplished, there is no unity amongst your group and management will exploit this to the end.

[teacher]

ALPA has a lot of great resources that can be provided, however as I am sure many already know, the Union you have is only as good as the quality and integrity of those who step up to volunteer

This is the ultimate truth when describing a union and a local LEC or MEC. The people in charge who make the decisions and the employees who make the demands make the union.

[MackTheKnife]

The ACPA MEC is woefully lacking the vision to understand, let alone agree to, the basic fundamentals the other unions are trying to protect. I'm afraid it will require a sledge hammer to change ACPA's destructive path.

"With this joint declaration, the leadership of the CUPE, CAW, and IAM bargaining units at Air Canada declare our joint
commitment to preserve Air Canada’s defined benefit pension plan for current retirees, current employees, and future employees alike. We will make the maintenance of the plan, including employer contributions that are the necessary consequence of past funding deferrals, a central priority during our coming collective bargaining with Air Canada. And we commit to the most determined and active solidarity between our members to defend the pension against the company’s illegitimate demands for benefit reductions and two-tier structures."

[ratherbee]

Looks like management is responding to the solidarity. What does "DISTRESSED PENSION PLAN WORKOUT SCHEME" mean anyway?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2039866/

[Norwegianwood]

"notably management’s bid to make it tougher to attain early retirement – staff in existing defined-benefit pension plans would have to work 30 years to qualify, instead of the current 25 years"..........................

Now how do they propose to do that and force retirement on a 60 year old, oh sorry that only applies to pilots

NW

[Doug Moore]

Looks like management is responding to the solidarity. What does "DISTRESSED PENSION PLAN WORKOUT SCHEME" mean anyway?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2039866/

Some info here: http://www.mcmillan.ca/Files/118845_Dis ... n_0111.pdf

[accumulous]

Looks like management is responding to the solidarity.

The Pilots can ensure the health of the Defined Benefit Plan with the end of Mandatory Retirement.

Conversely, attempting to hang onto the only ill-fated program of Senior Pilot Eradication At All Costs in all of North America, from the wheelhouse of the Lusitania, would incur as one of those costs, further and possibly critical injury to the Plan.

An internal study published some time ago pointed to the long-term benefits of the end of Mandatory Retirement in terms of the health of the Defined Benefit Plan for Pilots.

Certainly one party with very much to gain from the end of Mandatory Retirement will be the Corporation.

AC Management must surely be looking toward reversing their stance in support of any further compliance with a failed strategy.

It will be very interesting to hear what the CAW, the IAM, and CUPE, with their intelligent resources, will have in the way of data to back that up in their own camps, since both the IAM and the CAW have recently ended AC Mandatory Retirement, and CUPE’s legal advisors have some time ago put forward the futility of pursuing the same avenue as the Pilots, as their lawyers pointed out that in their opinion, Mandatory Retirement is legally unsustainable.

It only took one torpedo to upend the Lusitania. Guess where it's going to come from.

[Rockie]

The Pilots can ensure the health of the Defined Benefit Plan with the end of Mandatory Retirement.

Maybe they can even get something for it since it will help the company out as well. There's a radical thought for you...

[busdrvr320]

Well, I will put in my two cents for what it's worth. I spent the last 16 years flying for two carriers in the US. One a large regional and the other a Legacy Carrier. And after being a ALPA member for all of those years, I feel I can positivly state tha ALPA does not care about the interests of the Line pilot. They care about the largest amount of dues they can collect, with the littlest amount of National participation they can provide. ALPA's only interest in AC would be for their own bottom line. ALPA is a business, and with that they want to provide as little as possible for your dues. Now some will say they have some great programs, ie. aero medical, insurance, accident response ect. And they do! But don't mistake some good programs, as a concern for the AC pilots future. Also, know that it is your local representation and MEC, that will guide your future. And that many of your ACPA reps, will seek to be your ALPA reps. Any change will have to come from within.
Good Luck!

[Norwegianwood]

Also, know that it is your local representation and MEC, that will guide your future. And that many of your ACPA reps, will seek to be your ALPA reps. Any change will have to come from within.
Good Luck!

And therein lies the problem! The same shite still floats to the top and the representation the pilots should be getting is lost to a few self driven individuals (by one thing) and management know and exploit this to their advantage.

I echo your "good luck" as it will be a while before acpa comes of age and acts like a real association!

[prop2jet]

I think part of the problem be it ACPA or ALPA is the manner by which the leadership is "elected". I can't speak much for ACPA however I suspect it follows much the same pattern as ALPA. Yes, it is true that anyone can be nominated to run for a position at the LEC or MEC level, however speaking from the ALPA side of things, no general member has any direct involvement in the election of officers above the LEC (local level).

In the case of ALPA, the LEC's vote on the MEC and the various MEC's vote in the National officers. I suppose the best the local members can do is give guidance to their LEC reps on how a vote should be cast but to be honest, I have yet to see any of that.

The only truism is that the membership has to remain engaged in the activities of it's union regardless of who's "flag" they are flying, and this must be done ALL the time and not just during negotiations.

[rudder]

The biggest difference is the level and quality of professional staff support. The current fiasco and some other ongoing issues are perfect examples of poor advice. So the axiom "you get what you pay for" seems appropriate.