Jazz to become Air Canada Express.

[whiteguy]

http://business.financialpost.com/20... ... nal-brand/

Interesting stuff!

[Changes in Latitudes]

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... nal-brand/

For some reason your link didn't work.

[whiteguy]

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... nal-brand/

For some reason your link didn't work.

Thanks.

[Xander]

I'm a proud employee of Jazz /Air Canada Jazz / Jazz Air LP / Jazz Air / Chorus Aviation (Formerly Jazz Air income fund) / Air Canada Express.

[Brize]

Just like Colgan, paint then up to look like Continental. To make passengers feel like its Continental. This type of thing should be made illegal.

When the Buffalo crash happened, did anyone notice is was the pretty much referred to as'the Colgan crash, not the Continental. It was Continental's paying passengers but they barely got a dent in their name from it all. Genius.

-

Air Canada, to give their generally disappointed passengers a new brand to avoid confusion. The ultimate goal is to CREATE confusion as to who actually holds the responsibility for service and safety.

Here we go....

Down the sewer in Canada.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Yet, 36K, some travel benefits, civilization and an ok schedule is better than what many people are encountering at their current jobs. No problem filling the cockpit with warm bodies. The great spiral completes yet another revolution.

[DLurker]

Now the Games begin. Air Canada Express how original, sure sounds like any one of the
American Companies that they seem to be trying so hard to copy with their lower wages.

Air Canada employees and Jazz employees better cover your rear ends or kiss them goodbye.

It is hard to believe that your union is going to let them get away with the startup out of
Toronto Island without any kind of agreement in place. Once it is up and operational then
it becomes extremely hard to stop, becoming the first nail in the coffin.

As a outside observer your union leaders seem to be letting the rank and file down in
a lot of ways during your current struggles, the rank and file better reign these guys in
a hurry before it gets so far down the road there is no turning back.

[flyinhigh]

oh great, I work for ACE again..

[CANAM]

I have been wondering when this was going to begin. For years, I have no doubt that Air Canada has been looking south at the American regional market with great admiration. That is, many lowpaying regionals constantly trying to undercut eachother for a piece flying. The new United Airlines regional system will consist of ExpressJet, Commutair, Colgan, Chautauqua, Gulfstream, Atlantic Southeast, Shuttle America, Mesa, Skywest, GoJets and Trans States.

When Jazz's capacity purchass agreement is nearing it's conclusion, look for Air Canada to tender an offer from all 704/705 operators in Canada to replace their flying. You will see the bidding war that has existed down south 35 years. Mark my words, you will see Bearskin, Perimeter, Thunder Airlines, Calm Air, ect. all flying under Air Canada Express very very soon. Put it this way, some Dash8 Captains in the US make $37,000/year. Compare that to the $75-108,000 some Dash8 Captains make at Jazz. There is no way this will continue in Canada once the bidding starts.

[truedude]

Mark my words, you will see Bearskin, Perimeter, Thunder Airlines, Calm Air, ect. all flying under Air Canada Express very very soon.

Nine years is a long time away; and in this industry, it is almost an eternity. A million things can happen between now and then, and trying to predict what will happen is a fallacy at best. I think history has proven time and time again that things rarely work out the way you imagine they will.

[fish4life]

Also as for Perimeter and Bearskin their 705 pilots will make over $100K/yr as cpt's anyway without OT or anything else so I can't see them being any cheaper

[CANAM]

It's not that far away. New airlines will be brought in sooner than later, ala Sky Regional, ect.. New regionals can also be created with not too much effort too. And it's not the salaries that Bearskin pilots (for example) are making now that will be the deciding factor that will impact the industry. The bidding process will force the wages lower in order to compete. Combined with the fact that there is always a pilot willing to fly for next to nothing in order to sit in a nice shiny airplane and wear a uniform. In the US, Republic Airways pays FOs $23,000/year to fly an EMB190 and they have resumes a mile high.

It will look something like this:

Air Canada: Hey Thunder Airways, can you get together a Dash8 program and do it cheaper than Jazz?
Thunder Airways: Ummmm, yeah.
Air Canada: Hey Perimeter, can you beat whatever bid Thunder Airways puts in?
Perimeter: To get Dash8s??? Ummmm, yeah!

[Flaps 1]

Under that same logic, where do you think the EMB's will end up in 9 years? The tone of this thread makes me think we actually want this to happen in the Canadian airline industry...not a good attitude in my opinion.

[TKTguy]

They may need someone to fly the DH8. The Jazz people are probably going to
be busy with the Airbus and EMB flying.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Under that same logic, where do you think the EMB's will end up in 9 years? The tone of this thread makes me think we actually want this to happen in the Canadian airline industry...not a good attitude in my opinion.

Better than collectively keeping our head in the sand and hope things get better . Look south of the border if you want to see Canadian airline WAWCONS circa 2015 +. If you are not already working for Air Canada your personal "flight plan" better better be predicated on living on US style wages not on what the guys and girls are making today. If you are working for Jazz, then unless you are going to able to retire before the current CPA expires it would seem prudent to start planning for a significant reduction in wages.

[teacher]

Under that same logic, where do you think the EMB's will end up in 9 years? The tone of this thread makes me think we actually want this to happen in the Canadian airline industry...not a good attitude in my opinion.

Better than collectively keeping our head in the sand and hope things get better . Look south of the border if you want to see Canadian airline WAWCONS circa 2015 +. If you are not already working for Air Canada your personal "flight plan" better better be predicated on living on US style wages not on what the guys and girls are making today. If you are working for Jazz, then unless you are going to able to retire before the current CPA expires it would seem prudent to start planning for a significant reduction in wages.

Actually "Pistons" I think it's more logical to assume that we at Jazz will just be flying bigger equipment 2015+ but for the same wages. Is it right, nope, but that's the way it's going and since us pilot folks can't seem to stick together that seems to be the way it's gonna be.

[Localizer]

If you are working for Jazz, then unless you are going to able to retire before the current CPA expires it would seem prudent to start planning for a significant reduction in wages.

I'd let the place go bankrupt before accepting a lower wage .. fyi.

[truedude]

I'd let the place go bankrupt before accepting a lower wage .. fyi.

+1, I will be going down with the ship before i see my wages rolled back one red cent.

Better than collectively keeping our head in the sand and hope things get better . Look south of the border if you want to see Canadian airline WAWCONS circa 2015 +. If you are not already working for Air Canada your personal "flight plan" better better be predicated on living on US style wages not on what the guys and girls are making today. If you are working for Jazz, then unless you are going to able to retire before the current CPA expires it would seem prudent to start planning for a significant reduction in wages.

I would actually be a lot more concerned if I was currently working at Air Canada. The crows are already beginning to circle...

It's not that far away. New airlines will be brought in sooner than later, ala Sky Regional, ect.. New regionals can also be created with not too much effort too. And it's not the salaries that Bearskin pilots (for example) are making now that will be the deciding factor that will impact the industry. The bidding process will force the wages lower in order to compete. Combined with the fact that there is always a pilot willing to fly for next to nothing in order to sit in a nice shiny airplane and wear a uniform. In the US, Republic Airways pays FOs $23,000/year to fly an EMB190 and they have resumes a mile high.

It will look something like this:

Air Canada: Hey Thunder Airways, can you get together a Dash8 program and do it cheaper than Jazz?
Thunder Airways: Ummmm, yeah.
Air Canada: Hey Perimeter, can you beat whatever bid Thunder Airways puts in?
Perimeter: To get Dash8s??? Ummmm, yeah!

CANAM Your an idiot.

First off, its pretty hard to find the number of planes that Jazz currently has--not something that can be replaced over night. That being said, if Air Canada and the pilots want to play this stupid game, of race to the bottom, in the foolish hopes that they might see an extra buck or two, I think the end game might not be very tasteful to you. Jazz's balance sheet looks a hole lot better than yours--we can go in circles and argue why that is, but for now, it is what it is--and come 2020, i think it's Air Canada that would be in a far worse position than Jazz should Jazz simply say, go F*#K yourselves.

But hey, time will tell. But something tells me that when the ball drops, it won't be Jazz that's left out in the cold... or the pilots.

[dcabrown]

Not trying to take sides here or whatever, but I was under the impression Air Canada owned most of the Jazz equipment except for a handful (12 or so?) of the older Dash 8's, with some of those used exclusively for Jazz Charters...

[rudder]

Not trying to take sides here or whatever, but I was under the impression Air Canada owned most of the Jazz equipment except for a handful (12 or so?) of the older Dash 8's, with some of those used exclusively for Jazz Charters...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.Fi ... U9MQ==&t=1

page 5

[truedude]

Not trying to take sides here or whatever, but I was under the impression Air Canada owned most of the Jazz equipment except for a handful (12 or so?) of the older Dash 8's, with some of those used exclusively for Jazz Charters...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.Fi ... U9MQ==&t=1

page 5

And those numbers will continue to grow. And even though Jazz leases a lot of the other planes, the thing to remember is, those planes are not all owned by Air Canada.

I could be wrong about this, but I actually think very few of the planes are owned, or controlled by Air Canada anymore.

[prop2jet]

For those who were too lazy to look or pressed for time , here you go:

15 Q400's: All owned by Chorus (Jazz)

48 CRJ 100/200: 32 subleased from AC, 15 subleased from AC Capital and 1 leased from a third party.

16 CRJ 705: 15 subleased from AC Capital and 1 subleased from a third party.

28 DH8 300: 19 owned by Chorus and 9 leased from a third party.

36 DH8 100: 29 owned by Chorus and 7 leased from AC Capital.

This information is readily available by reading the Chorus AIF.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zht ... ortsannual

[vortac]

SO what you're saying is AC could just sublease half of Jazz's aircraft to another startup.

The future looks so bright that it's blinding.

[prop2jet]

Vortac, I don't think by 2020 any of those RJ's will be in great shape for anyone to be operating. Scrap metal is where they will end up. As for the DH8's, they will likely be given the extreme makeover and an extension on life.

[Inverted2]

SO what you're saying is AC could just sublease half of Jazz's aircraft to another startup.

The future looks so bright that it's blinding.

In a nutshell yes. But AC could also send all 60 Embrarers to a regional carrier. The race to the bottom..... AC is already trying to do this in house with the LCC proposal on much bigger planes.