FP today

[yycflyguy]

That's why I am vocal about it, and I would be just as vocal no matter how I personally felt about the retirement issue. We cannot continue to think with our head up our ass.

Great. Like I said. Initiate the conversation on the other forum to educate the membership on something that is so simple and obvious to you. Should be easy to convert the savages.

You are vocal here about it but what good is it on an anonymous forum where only a fraction of the membership visits?

[Norwegianwood]

You are vocal here about it but what good is it on an anonymous forum where only a fraction of the membership visits?

Could it be that the other forum has banned anybody who has anything to say in favor of flying beyond 60???

[yycflyguy]

You are vocal here about it but what good is it on an anonymous forum where only a fraction of the membership visits?

Could it be that the other forum has banned anybody who has anything to say in favor of flying beyond 60???

Not true. The only people who have been "banned" are those pilots who have retired.

[Norwegianwood]

And retired pilots are not allowed to have any say? So, two strikes, one get off the premises and two stfu, nice!!

[yycflyguy]

I believe the policy of not allowing retired pilots to post on the AC forum was because of the threats of litigation from some. Too bad, as there is lots of wisdom and perspective lost because of the actions of some.

[Rockie]

Initiate the conversation on the other forum to educate the membership on something that is so simple and obvious to you.

I've already explained why it has to be the union that does that but you don't seem to believe me. So instead why don't you initiate the conversation so you can see for yourself. Nothing like first hand experience.

[Rockie]

I believe the policy of not allowing retired pilots to post on the AC forum was because of the threats of litigation from some. Too bad, as there is lots of wisdom and perspective lost because of the actions of some.

No it wasn't. Nobody has anything to fear from the retired pilots that they don't have to fear from people currently allowed on the forum. The reason no retired pilots are allowed on is because they would then have to allow "THEM" on, and the hatred runs too deep to allow that.

You know who I'm talking about.

[yycflyguy]

I believe the policy of not allowing retired pilots to post on the AC forum was because of the threats of litigation from some. Too bad, as there is lots of wisdom and perspective lost because of the actions of some.

No it wasn't. Nobody has anything to fear from the retired pilots that they don't have to fear from people currently allowed on the forum. The reason no retired pilots are allowed on is because they would then have to allow "THEM" on, and the hatred runs too deep to allow that.

You know who I'm talking about.

Rockie, I didn't want to turn this into a pissing match but here comes some more urine.

You are partially correct that the banning of retired pilots was to eliminate future problems from a select few who have a history of legal threats and using forum posts to further their cause. The AC forum has proven to be invaluable for the sharing of information and unification of the membership. The age60 debate is merely one topic. You are knowledgeable on the topic and should debate it over there. Like I said, there is a greater audience you could reach there.

I'm out!

[accumulous]

Initiate the conversation on the other forum to educate the membership on something that is so simple and obvious to you. Should be easy to convert the savages.

It’s actually far better for everybody to keep that little room locked up and throw away the key.

When you factor in the number of pilots who will be returning, and the number who have voiced their favor of an open-ended career and pension, which in round numbers approaches the total size of the Montreal, Winnipeg, and Vancouver bases combined, then you can easily see how it would quickly get rather crowded in there.

Couple that with an innate inability to negotiate anything, and it becomes glaringly obvious that there is no pilot on that end of the stick who would have even the remotest chance of knowing how to turn an open-ended career for themselves and the Company into a gold mine, and you have seen the net result – sulking in a little room.

There is also nothing to discuss because ACPA chose the litigation route themselves several years ago, and as a direct result of that they’ll be taking their marching orders from the Feds. There has been a long string of senseless futile attempts among a small group of middling seniority Pilots to change the basic structure and intent of Parliament on a small ‘Union’ budget, when they’re not preoccupied with schemes to screw both the most junior and senior Pilots, but then again there’s a long, long history of Pilots being their own worst enemy. Don't expect that to change. Too many special interest groups with far too little know-how.

Only a pilot can extrapolate to the extent that since they’re above the ground, then it only makes sense that they’re above the law. That’s the depth of the laborious expensive misconception that has absolutely no chance of salvation.

When somebody finally pulls the data recorder on this Monumental Train Wreck, once you edit out all the screaming and yelling, there’s just a blank tape.

It is far better to keep the little room locked, and when the Tribunal Orders and Federal Court Decisions are rendered, just slide them under the door.

[Rockie]

You are knowledgeable on the topic and should debate it over there

Nobody "over there" is interested in knowledge or they would be asking questions wouldn't they? Nobody "over there" is interested in a debate because there isn't one, and certainly the union is not interested in any kind of debate or giving the members any kind of knowledge.

People have tried but I notice you haven't. So once again, if you think a debate needs to occur then by all means start one up.

Good luck.

Wear a vest.

[DLurker]

Let me start by saying I don't work for AC and have no stake in what's happening.

It seems to me that some people in this pilot group are just like the LIBERAL PARTY
they just devour their YOUNG for their own gain.

Why not figure out a way to make this work for everyone.

Question IF the retired pilots return to work do they have to keep paying into the pension plan.
If so why not make their highest earnings calculation @ age 60 and then make them keep paying in if they continue to work but their pension can't increase from age 60 onward.
This would increase the amount in the kitty for the younger ones.

[vic777]

Question IF the retired pilots return to work do they have to keep paying into the pension plan.

According to Canadian Pension Laws, you cannot pay into a pension for more than 35 years. So, if you were hired at age Twenty, legally you could not pay into your pension after age Fifty-Five, (assuming continuous employment).

If so why not make their highest earnings calculation @ age 60 and then make them keep paying in if they continue to work but their pension can't increase from age 60 onward.
This would increase the amount in the kitty for the younger ones.

According to CHRT you cannot discriminate on the basis of age.

[Rockie]

If so why not make their highest earnings calculation @ age 60 and then make them keep paying in if they continue to work but their pension can't increase from age 60 onward.
This would increase the amount in the kitty for the younger ones.

According to CHRT you cannot discriminate on the basis of age.

Why is age discrimination such a difficult concept for people to understand?

[DLurker]

Why is FAIRNESS for the younger pilots such a hard concept to understand?
The interesting question is what is the average age of new pilots hired at AC?
From reading articles on this forum I would guess somewhere between 30 and 35.

So where does that leave them to receive the equal pension work till your 80.

All I'am saying is there has to be away that it can work for everyone, and that's not
trying to discriminant against anyone it's only trying to figure a solution to the problem,
and just not going on saying " I'am alright JACK and to hell with you "

[Norwegianwood]

" I'am alright JACK and to hell with you "

Wait a minute........... That's acpa's line, you can't use that

[Rockie]

From reading articles on this forum I would guess somewhere between 30 and 35.So where does that leave them to receive the equal pension work till your 80.All I'am saying is there has to be away that it can work for everyone, and that's not trying to discriminant against anyone it's only trying to figure a solution to the problem,

The average age is 35 and has been for quite some time.

Now, this solution does work for everybody and here's why. No longer will contemporary Air Canada pilots be shoved unceremoniously out the door at age 60 with an inadequate pension. They will be able to stay and continue building their pension until such time as they are ready and able to leave. Is that a difficult thing to understand, or would you rather people be forced out without adequate means of income?

The people who will be in that position are only fighting it now because they are unable, or unwilling to see this issue beyond the context of their progress up the seniority ladder. They, like you, are also unable to think outside that self-imposed box and develop contractual working conditions that mitigate the seniority dilemma. It is a failure of imagination and a triumph for dogmatic, anachronistic thinking.

It is also in the process of being thoroughly crushed by reality.

[accumulous]

All I'am saying is there has to be away that it can work for everyone, and that's not trying to discriminant against anyone it's only trying to figure a solution to the problem, and just not going on saying " I'am alright JACK and to hell with you "

The way it works for everyone is that well over 2600 out of 2900 pilots on the list will not have contributed 35 years to their Pension at 60 by virtue of the fact that they were hired late due to a Tribunal ruling of 30 years ago that said AC can’t discriminate on the basis of age when hiring.

Consequently, group demographics have made such a massive age shift past the upper end of the age scale, that virtually all Pilots will have the opportunity to continue with pension contributions past 60, without even changing the 35 year cap. That's right, virtually all of them.

In other words, it is a universal situation for virtually every pilot on the seniority list right now. So what’s the problem?

AC Pilots.

They’ve been committing Mental Suicide for as long as anybody can remember. They just can’t seem to grasp even the simplest concepts.

Musical Chairs.

The scheme is all about the Senior Pilot Extermination Program.

Wipe as many names off the list as possible and then go past 60 with an elevated number. That’s the program. Everybody knows it. Everybody needs to make continued pension contributions past 60 in order to have a decent pension, but within the Nuthouse we call AC, the only one of its kind in all of North America, the Skit is Extermination. In fact, ACPA’s own internal study showed how the Defined Benefit Plan would improve under the end of Mandatory Retirement.

Our own internal Nut Festival is actually trying to give the Pension away. That’s how mentally screwed we are.

Zero smarts. Zero leadership. Zero plan. Zero everything.

The real issue is uniquely crude in all of aviation. Kill off as many of your Pilots as you can at the top end, as fast as you can, for as long as you can before the Mandatory Retirement House of Cards folds in on itself.

The flagrant Discrimination initiative has failed miserably. In fact it has failed so badly, the Federal Government will be setting down the terms. Those are called Orders. One has already been issued. AC Pilots are inherently incapable of negotiating anything. There’s just not any kind of leadership or smarts or any of the other elements present to get it done internally.

So the question:

Why not figure out a way to make this work for everyone.

We can’t. There isn’t even enough collective intelligence to pull a hay wagon, which is why the Feds are putting the Horses out of their misery.

We live in an era where Discrimination is outlawed, especially Age Discrimination. The laws are written all over the walls of Parliament. And what is our Absolute Defining Hallmark? Let’s go to court and challenge Parliament. We’ll form a group. What shall we call our group? Let’s call our group the Age 60 Committee. How many Judges and lawyers, in an era that outlaws Age Discrimination, do you suppose have looked down at that glaring ‘Moniker’ on the piece of paper in front of them, and then looked up over their glasses at the people in the room, and thought, isn’t this just bloody brilliant. People, if we can't even get the first step out of the gate right, just give up.

[duranium]

Back to the FP60 subject

The Federal Budget today, (June 6 2011) showed this information on pages 113 and 122.

Quote from the budget:

Eliminating the Mandatory Retirement AgeCanadians are living longer, more active lives than ever before. Those who wish to remain active in the labour force should be able to do so for as long as they desire, enriching the workplace with their accumulated knowledgeand experience. The Government proposes to introduce amendments to the CanadianHuman Rights Act and the Canada Labour Code to prohibit federally regulated employers from setting a mandatory retirement age unless thereis a bona fide occupational requirement. This would allow Canadians tochoose how long they wish to remain active in the labour force. TheGovernment will review other acts to further this objective.

end quote.

AC and acpa have already lost the BFOR issue, with V/K.

acpa, can not use the BFOR issue, as they are NOT an employeer. That leaves AC only, and they have lost the BFOR issue before the CHRT and the Federal Court.

Any one with a brain has seen this coming for years. Any bets ACPA will keep up the fight? LMAO

From what I have learned here and elsewhere, yes, ACPA will keep up the fight as they are " short a few cards for a full deck " or put an other way, missing a few cogs on the wheel. Will they ever learn, I do not think so as they are to imbued with themselves. Financial reality will sure provide for a very painfull wake-up.

[DLurker]

The people who will be in that position are only fighting it now because they are unable, or unwilling to see this issue beyond the context of their progress up the seniority ladder. They, like you, are also unable to think outside that self-imposed box and develop contractual working conditions that mitigate the seniority dilemma. It is a failure of imagination and a triumph for dogmatic, anachronistic thinking.


First of all don't put me in your box. I do not even have a pension I had to built my own through hard work and building a business that could support me in my Old Age. I do not have any preconceived notions about AC pension Plan or anybody else s.

Furthermore how are the younger ones supposed to move up the ladder of seniority if the top end
does not retire.
ACPA has a real dilemma on their hands and will need some good minds and everyone must be willing to compromise to solve the problem, and that's all I'am saying.

Just remember before you attack me I have no stake nor anything to gain.
Just looking in from the outside and making observations by asking questions.

[accumulous]

Furthermore how are the younger ones supposed to move up the ladder of seniority if the top end does not retire.

The same way everybody in North America does it - try to focus on that one little element - EVERYBODY in North America, AC being the only exception - once again, AC being the ONLY exception - they all go past 60 - that's how they do it. Equal opportunity. And the driving force will be a great pension.

And the Defined Benefit Pension thrives with no Mandatory Retirement, a huge benefit that ACPA is trying to negotiate into a dumpster, for the same reason a dog licks its gonads. Because it can. No thinking, just licking.

The proof of that will be the CAW, CUPE and IAM analysis of the end of Mandatory Retirement versus their Defined Benefit plans. Nobody on the Seniority Holy Grail Quest wants to see that data, because it does not jive with the quest for Senior Pilot Extermination. We've got cave dwellers versus the law going on here. Hence the recent thinly disguised GDIP petition to please, as soon as humanly possible, lets please oh please, without delay, give away the pension and chop the airline into little pieces. The remnants of the failed seniority initiative are still sputtering along the road to ruin and self-destruction. Just a couple more chapters and it should finally and thankfully be in the tank.

With all due respect to the metaphor police, the Runaway Train hit the Federal Court building head on, the TA Hindenburg got voted into the dirt in a ball of flames by a clear majority, the Lusitania sank under the weight of a clear as mud GDIP petition, all right exactly on cue. The only conveyance left is the Titanic and baby oh baby, stand by for that show.

[Rockie]

First of all don't put me in your box. I do not even have a pension I had to built my own through hard work and building a business that could support me in my Old Age. I do not have any preconceived notions about AC pension Plan or anybody else s.

Actually you do have preconcieved notions because you regurgitated exactly the line ACPA feeds its pilots, demonstrating that you haven't thought the issue through either. My comment stands.

Furthermore how are the younger ones supposed to move up the ladder of seniority if the top enddoes not retire.

They will move up the ladder because not everybody will go beyond 60, especially if the union grabs a brain and leverages the gains made by ending mandatory retirement into increased ability to go earlier than 60 if a person wishes. But they haven't thought of that yet. And everybody eventually retires. It is ridiculous assuming they won't.

Will people progress as fast? Who knows? That's largely up to how clever the union is in leveraging this to their maximum advantage, and so far the union hasn't been very clever.

Do people have a legal right to progression up the ladder according to their expectations?

Do people have a legal right to not be discriminated against?

Is a protection from discrimination for every person in Canada unfair to people who want to set 60 year olds adrift so they can have their job?

How exactly would you weigh a non-existent right to seniority list progression against a legal right to not be discriminated against? I can tell you ACPA and most of its pilots have that hierarchy all wrong and is going to pay a very heavy price for their unwillingness to face reality.

[massey308]

Rockie or shall i call you Daryll.........

[Rockie]

Rockie or shall i call you Daryll.........

No, Rockie will do fine.

[James Delgaty]

Hey Rockie,

sounds like you and the rest of the forum here are experts,

Put your name forward we are looking for a few good people.

As for the forum it has already been said but a few proposed litigation so hence it was shut down. Sad that people can't speak there mind without the threat of litigation.

Cheers,

James

[vic777]

Wipe as many names off the list as possible and then go past 60 with an elevated number. That’s the program. Everybody knows it. Everybody needs to make continued pension contributions past 60 in order to have a decent pension, but within the Nuthouse we call AC, the only one of its kind in all of North America, the Skit is Extermination. In fact, ACPA’s own internal study showed how the Defined Benefit Plan would improve under the end of Mandatory Retirement.

Our own internal Nut Festival is actually trying to give the Pension away. That’s how mentally screwed we are.

Zero smarts. Zero leadership. Zero plan. Zero everything.

There actually has been a Plan. Air Canada has always targeted the greed of the negotiating "elite". Air Canada knows that if they offer a scheme where by the negotiators benefit, these negotiators will sell out the rest of the Pilot Group. Just look at the TA's that have come down the pike.