The Martin Mars is coming to nothern Alberta

[CLguy]

Well not sure what parts of a fire you have been too but you can believe it. One of the Captains of the contract 215's you have working there actually holds the record for the most drop ever in a single mission with a CL-415. He did a 104 in 3.8 hours and that time includes the ferry to and from the fire. Doing 80+ drops in a single mission is pretty common stuff. In Alberta this probably would never happen because out there it is about making money as you stated and being paid by the flight hour there really is no incentive to cut off the hand that feeds you.

Sorry no one answered your previous question so I will give it a shot. First a 4000' density altitude would have virtually no effect on the 415, may increase the scooping distance by a bit but in Kelowna that certainly wouldn't be an issue. If fact Quebec set a record a few years back with a 415 while in Mexico. They were scooping at 9000' asl and dropping at 13,000'. Highest known altitude that water has ever been scooped and yes they were getting full loads. With a standard load of fuel, about 4 hours flight time we would have to download about 100 to 150 gallons to start. The flight crew never has to think about that because the onboard computers monitor the weight of the aircraft and set the gross weight bugs on the water quantity gauges accordingly. You just fill to the gross weight bugs. As fuel and foam are consumed the bugs move up allowing you to load more water. We carry the fuel we do cause it allows us to take off from a runway and head straight into the water, get basically a full load without having to burn off fuel to get below our pre-scooping weight. We do have the option and do it quite often, of putting on more fuel if we know the fire location before dispatch and are facing a long ferry flight to get to it. We burn the ferry fuel and still have about 4 hours and are at are pre-scooping weight when we arrive over the fire.

Hope this answers your question!

[Forestdump]

Really? Here we go again with the paid by the hour routine. Are you implying that the record holding contract captain will be out doing a sub standard job? While we are at it I hope he doesn't knock over too many trees with the inferior two door system. Time for some new material.

[CLguy]

Sorry, I guess I hit a nerve! Let's just say he isn't flying as hard as he used to but he'll be working harder pushing his wheelbarrow loads of money to the bank. It must be a western thing!

[swordfish]

Actually Swordfish if you knew anything about aerial firefighting you would know that a 3 minute circuit with a 215 is actually a fairly slow and quite managable circuit. When you are into a 1 1/2 minute circuit you are getting pretty busy. Things get busy in a 415 when the circuit times are down to a minute and 10 seconds
...
One of the Captains of the contract 215's you have working there actually holds the record for the most drop ever in a single mission with a CL-415. He did a 104 in 3.8 hours and that time includes the ferry to and from the fire.

I am not a fire bomber driver, so I'm trying to get my head around some of these performance figures you have quoted:

• 1. Applying the most liberal and permissive allowances I can from your claims, 104 drops in 3.8 hours equates to an AVERAGE of 2 min 12 seconds per drop.
  2. Using rate-2 turns (60°bank, 1.7g), it will take 30 seconds for the turn from the fire to the lake, and 30 seconds to turn back to the fire.
  3. The scoop itself must take about 20 seconds...?
  4. He is scooping progressively more on each pick-up as his fuel burns off, so his scoop time is increasing with each pick-up.
  5. Then you have to line up & drop on the fire - 20 seconds...?
  6. So this allows 30 seconds for traveling from the lake to the fire, and back to the lake.

So I conclude that the fire is burning right on the edge of the lake for 3.8 hours, this is the only aircraft on the fire, (or the other aircraft are working at the same rate so they can stay out of each others way), the pilot is doing 2 rate-2 turns every 2¼ minutes, and sustaining this for 3.8 hours, the NFP - who I assume to be the copilot - is working like a one-legged man in a bum-kicking contest, configuring, setting continual power changes, and monitoring a shitload of parameters inside the cockpit, the aircraft had enough fuel to do 104 takeoffs (which I am assuming require close to full power) and scoops (at half power on the step...?) and have 30 minutes of fuel remaining at normal cruise after he is done.

So to trim these times to 1½ minutes, then 1¼ min, I have to concede that a fire bomber is REALLY working his ass off, and the aircraft's also.

Help me out: What am I missing here?

[ABFireGuy]

CLGuy, there comes a time in each person's life where he has to step back look at themselves and realize a few things. I urge you to go back through your numerous posts here on AvCanada over the years and assess for yourself where some of this hostility towards you is coming from. You really do come across as a narcissistic, arrogant person. Perhaps that is because of the nature of this particular media, I am not sure. Every one I have met so far in my fire fighting career has been an outstanding individual. I am sure you are no different in person.

Insulting the government agencies and the crews that they hire for which you hope to get exported to isn't the wisest thing I've ever seen done. We're all doing the same job trying to meet the same goals. Two years ago you and other members of your agency blasted BC untill you guys got picked up and now you sound like the whiny kids not aloud to play in the Alberta sandbox. Again, maybe that is just the power of the keyboard. I know you guys are very competent drivers but you really are making your organizatoin look bad as a whole. Take my advice or don't, doesn't matter to me. Just trying to pass on a friendly bit of advice made from observations not only by me but by many others in the industry.

[rum-runner]

"Amen" to the post above !!

[All Sides]

Well not sure what parts of a fire you have been too but you can believe it. One of the Captains of the contract 215's you have working there actually holds the record for the most drop ever in a single mission with a CL-415. He did a 104 in 3.8 hours and that time includes the ferry to and from the fire. Doing 80+ drops in a single mission is pretty common stuff. In Alberta this probably would never happen because out there it is about making money as you stated and being paid by the flight hour there really is no incentive to cut off the hand that feeds you.

Sorry no one answered your previous question so I will give it a shot. First a 4000' density altitude would have virtually no effect on the 415, may increase the scooping distance by a bit but in Kelowna that certainly wouldn't be an issue. If fact Quebec set a record a few years back with a 415 while in Mexico. They were scooping at 9000' asl and dropping at 13,000'. Highest known altitude that water has ever been scooped and yes they were getting full loads. With a standard load of fuel, about 4 hours flight time we would have to download about 100 to 150 gallons to start. The flight crew never has to think about that because the onboard computers monitor the weight of the aircraft and set the gross weight bugs on the water quantity gauges accordingly. You just fill to the gross weight bugs. As fuel and foam are consumed the bugs move up allowing you to load more water. We carry the fuel we do cause it allows us to take off from a runway and head straight into the water, get basically a full load without having to burn off fuel to get below our pre-scooping weight. We do have the option and do it quite often, of putting on more fuel if we know the fire location before dispatch and are facing a long ferry flight to get to it. We burn the ferry fuel and still have about 4 hours and are at are pre-scooping weight when we arrive over the fire.

Hope this answers your question!

Yes, it does address my questions and thanks for taking the time to answer them.

I too am having a hard time envisioning those turn around times in my head, but will give you the benefit of the doubt, for now. I am not sure where you got the idea it was all about the money for me, I am on a day rate. I find it a challenge to actually try and put the fire out, the better the chances of the fire getting away, the more challenging it becomes. I am sure you would probably agree with that when you are out dropping.

I get to hang out on the tanker bases on occasion, I find the pilots on the tankers are a great bunch of guys as ABFireGuy does. I have also worked closely with 215/415s (sometimes very close), they are an incredibly effective fire suppression weapon with very capable pilots. Who knows maybe we can go have a beer one day and talk about fire suppression.

I think this thread has run its course for me.

Fly Safe and have a great summer.

[CLguy]

ABFireGuy you can call me what you want but it really only comes down to the fact that I care as do my coworkers. It is pretty tough to sit parked and say nothing when you watch the news and see people trying to pick up the pieces after losing everything they owned knowing full well you have the equipment and ability that could help make a difference. It is even worse when you are available but for some reason the call never comes. It really makes you wonder what it's really all about. When it comes to firefighting, west of Saskatchewan there really is a reluctance to use the 415's and I'm not sure why. A drop a hour from the Mars seems acceptable to everyone and the fact that the fire has increased another 100,000 hectares in size since this thread started is ok as long as there are no 415's. Last season the westcoast was ablaze and entire fleets of 415's sat parked even though they were offered to help. The out of province Fire Teams assigned to those fires who know full well the capabilities were requesting 415's for support on a daily basis only to be told they couldn't have them.

We now witness the same thing unfolding in Alberta this season. Every type of tanker is being mobilized except the 415's even though we all work under a Mutual Aid Resource Sharing Agreement which means the Alberta taxpayers get them for pennies on the pound.

For us it means nothing extra other than the opportunity to help. No wheelbarrows of extra cash, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or should I say fire season so really why should we care.

This thread has gone on long enough and I need to quit watching the news.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Well not sure what parts of a fire you have been too but you can believe it. One of the Captains of the contract 215's you have working there actually holds the record for the most drop ever in a single mission with a CL-415. He did a 104 in 3.8 hours and that time includes the ferry to and from the fire. Doing 80+ drops in a single mission is pretty common stuff. In Alberta this probably would never happen because out there it is about making money as you stated and being paid by the flight hour there really is no incentive to cut off the hand that feeds you.

Sorry no one answered your previous question so I will give it a shot. First a 4000' density altitude would have virtually no effect on the 415, may increase the scooping distance by a bit but in Kelowna that certainly wouldn't be an issue. If fact Quebec set a record a few years back with a 415 while in Mexico. They were scooping at 9000' asl and dropping at 13,000'. Highest known altitude that water has ever been scooped and yes they were getting full loads. With a standard load of fuel, about 4 hours flight time we would have to download about 100 to 150 gallons to start. The flight crew never has to think about that because the onboard computers monitor the weight of the aircraft and set the gross weight bugs on the water quantity gauges accordingly. You just fill to the gross weight bugs. As fuel and foam are consumed the bugs move up allowing you to load more water. We carry the fuel we do cause it allows us to take off from a runway and head straight into the water, get basically a full load without having to burn off fuel to get below our pre-scooping weight. We do have the option and do it quite often, of putting on more fuel if we know the fire location before dispatch and are facing a long ferry flight to get to it. We burn the ferry fuel and still have about 4 hours and are at are pre-scooping weight when we arrive over the fire.

Hope this answers your question!

Yes, it does address my questions and thanks for taking the time to answer them.

I too am having a hard time envisioning those turn around times in my head, but will give you the benefit of the doubt, for now. I am not sure where you got the idea it was all about the money for me, I am on a day rate. I find it a challenge to actually try and put the fire out, the better the chances of the fire getting away, the more challenging it becomes. I am sure you would probably agree with that when you are out dropping.

I get to hang out on the tanker bases on occasion, I find the pilots on the tankers are a great bunch of guys as ABFireGuy does. I have also worked closely with 215/415s (sometimes very close), they are an incredibly effective fire suppression weapon with very capable pilots. Who knows maybe we can go have a beer one day and talk about fire suppression.

I think this thread has run its course for me.

Fly Safe and have a great summer.

Have a hard time envisioning eh. Well I suggest you grab a lawn chair and camp out front of a local body of water near an active fire. Today with my own eyes I watched two bombers follow each other consistently every 3-4 minutes and it was quite mental.

CLGuy, there comes a time in each person's life where he has to step back look at themselves and realize a few things. I urge you to go back through your numerous posts here on AvCanada over the years and asses for yourself where some of this hostility towards you is coming from. You really do come across as a narcissistic, arrogant person. Perhaps that is because of the nature of this particular media, I am not sure. Every one I have met so far in my fire fighting career has been an outstanding individual. I am sure you are no different in person.

Insulting the government agencies and the crews that they hire for which you hope to get exported to isn't the wisest thing I've ever seen done. We're all doing the same job trying to meet the same goals. Two years ago you and other members of your agency blasted BC untill you guys got picked up and now you sound like the whiny kids not aloud to play in the Alberta sandbox. Again, maybe that is just the power of the keyboard. I know you guys are very competent drivers but you really are making your organizatoin look bad as a whole. Take my advice or don't, doesn't matter to me. Just trying to pass on a friendly bit of advice made from observations not only by me but by many others in the industry.

On the contrary, I have never witnessed CLGuy attack in such a way which you brilliantly or (not-so brilliantly) demonstrated above. There are others in this forum as of late (posted in this thread), who have the nerve to rip someone apart in a condolences thread in an effort to satisfy their power-tripping ego (they pull the experience and hours card).I would suggest you save it for them. To me that is classless and more of a turn off than simply stating what someone knows from personal experience. People generally do what best suits them. Also, opinions are personal. I think we are all entitled to our own opinions regardless of the outcome or how ridiculous it sounds? I urge you to take your own advice, because you truly come off as an "arrogant, narcissistic person." I did not really sense or see any offensive comments which triggered this fiasco .

Actually Swordfish if you knew anything about aerial firefighting you would know that a 3 minute circuit with a 215 is actually a fairly slow and quite managable circuit. When you are into a 1 1/2 minute circuit you are getting pretty busy. Things get busy in a 415 when the circuit times are down to a minute and 10 seconds
...
One of the Captains of the contract 215's you have working there actually holds the record for the most drop ever in a single mission with a CL-415. He did a 104 in 3.8 hours and that time includes the ferry to and from the fire.

I am not a fire bomber driver, so I'm trying to get my head around some of these performance figures you have quoted:

• 1. Applying the most liberal and permissive allowances I can from your claims, 104 drops in 3.8 hours equates to an AVERAGE of 2 min 12 seconds per drop.
  2. Using rate-2 turns (60°bank, 1.7g), it will take 30 seconds for the turn from the fire to the lake, and 30 seconds to turn back to the fire.
  3. The scoop itself must take about 20 seconds...?
  4. He is scooping progressively more on each pick-up as his fuel burns off, so his scoop time is increasing with each pick-up.
  5. Then you have to line up & drop on the fire - 20 seconds...?
  6. So this allows 30 seconds for traveling from the lake to the fire, and back to the lake.

So I conclude that the fire is burning right on the edge of the lake for 3.8 hours, this is the only aircraft on the fire, (or the other aircraft are working at the same rate so they can stay out of each others way), the pilot is doing 2 rate-2 turns every 2¼ minutes, and sustaining this for 3.8 hours, the NFP - who I assume to be the copilot - is working like a one-legged man in a bum-kicking contest, configuring, setting continual power changes, and monitoring a shitload of parameters inside the cockpit, the aircraft had enough fuel to do 104 takeoffs (which I am assuming require close to full power) and scoops (at half power on the step...?) and have 30 minutes of fuel remaining at normal cruise after he is done.

So to trim these times to 1½ minutes, then 1¼ min, I have to concede that a fire bomber is REALLY working his ass off, and the aircraft's also.

Help me out: What am I missing here?

Like I said above, camp out near a local fire / body of water and watch the show.

[ABFireGuy]

CLGuy, I'll retract the narcisitc arrogant part as I don't know you and as I stated it could be just the way it comes across in type. What other conclusions is one to draw from comments about not cutting of the hand that feeds you and wheelbarrow's of cash at the end of the rainbow. Kinda hard not to take it personaly. My appologies, as I stated I'm sure you're a good guy.

Quebec 415's were used in Slave Lake and we are very pleased and gratefull to have had the help of such a professional group. They did a fantastic job and we'd love to have them back. The NWT had 2 Ducks down as well as two of Buffalo's Ducks (Ex Newfoundland). The NWT Ducks have gone home but the Buffalo ones I believe are still in Slave Lake, no camera crews though for you IcePilots fans. There are also 10 Fireboss's in the province. Up in the oil sands where the big fire is, lakes are few and far between, shallow and small. The Fireboss's have done a fantastic job north of McMurray getting into swamps beside the fire and gettin'er done. The Mars and DC-10 are here to help mop things up while the rest of the crews are preparing for initial attack as there is some lightning in the forecast. Not to mention all of the other retardant machines and helicopters in the province. Great job to everyone involved.

With regards to your ground crews requesting 415's in BC, that is really good news and hopefully somebody listens. Although I stand by my comments that it does appear that you come down hard on the crews and government agencies out west on this forum and maybe it isn't the best way to get your voice heard. The second 215T will be in Alberta shortly. I'm sure BC will be keen to try them out once their fireseason gets under way. Saskatchewan's T's are coming out the door as well. Manitoba is getting into the 415 world, not sure if they have taken delivery yet or not. It will be nice to have so many scooper options nearby.

[CLguy]

Swordfish before I leave this thread for good I will try and answer your post. First it does not take 20 sec to fill a 415, nor does it take 30 sec to line up, nor does it take 30 sec to turn one. These are not numbers that I pulled from the sky as they are documented and have been verified. Previous to the 104 drops in 3.8 hours, the record was 98 in 3.6 hours for a single mission. Also an Ontario flight crew. If you were to go into the hangar in Sault Ste Marie, in the reception area is a plaque that was presented to the flight crew by Bombardier.

The minute, 10 second circuit was timed by the Air Attack Leader who was overhead in the Birddog not by the flightcrew. You are correct about tight circuits and being busy especially in a 215. In a 415 the biggest problem the non-flying guy has is not getting bored as the work load is considerably less and there is very little to do but monitor. Remember these aircraft are designed to do this stuff, fight fire. They are not an airframe that was designed for another role and then converted into an aerial tanker. I am certainly not implying that this is the norm but that the aircraft is capable of these types of stats. Of course in these cases the fire was right next to the water source, close to the airport and the conditions were right.

[Cat Driver]

I try and stay out of these pissing matches these days, however I must comment on this thread.

I feel the same as CLguy:

ABFireGuy you can call me what you want but it really only comes down to the fact that I care as do my coworkers. It is pretty tough to sit parked and say nothing when you watch the news and see people trying to pick up the pieces after losing everything they owned knowing full well you have the equipment and ability that could help make a difference.

It has been a long time since I was in the fire suppression business and the equipment we flew was far inferior to a 415, but scooping and dropping a load every three minutes on a fire was a common occurrence and we sometimes did it for hours on end flying a machine that was as maneuverable as a concrete mixer compared to the 415.

We also used our tanker as a photo op setting for exotic pictures, do any of you new age guys do that?

[Driving Rain]

We also used our tanker as a photo op setting for exotic pictures, do any of you new age guys do that?

Not lately but heres one of my new wheelbarrow.

[Cat Driver]

Just a quick question ABFireGuy, how many 415's are working in your province at the moment?

Things may have changed since I left the fire suppression business, but back then it was all about politics and favoritism with little concern for efficiency...especially where Conair and B.C. were concerned.

. .....aka ....Cat Driver.

[ABFireGuy]

Hello Cat. There are no 415's in Alberta at the moment. Feel free to check out www.ciffc.ca It tell's you who and what is where. It also tells you what is available for export. I have yet to see any 415's from Ontario being offered up for sale this season. They have exported lots of ground crews and equipment with more equipment available if needed. Maybe the 415's have been offered up, I just haven't seen it, don't check the site everyday. Quebec put there's up and Alberta took them.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the answer ABFireGuy, do you know if Allan Jefferies is still the head guy at CIFFC?

He was a good friend of mine when I was flying tankers and every time I got fired from a province he found another one that had a fire emergency to send me to so I could make a few dollars to support my lifestyle at the time.

[CLguy]

Just to clarify, Ontario removed their 415's from the CIFFC Availability List as of Sunday, 3 days ago.

[shitdisturber]

Just for the record, there's at least one 415 working the Fort Mac fire. It's white with blue and gold stripes and "Alberta" painted on the side. It's been based out of Slave Lake and coming into Fort Mac regularly for fuel.

[fougner]

.

[Forestdump]

215T? Is it 2009 already?

[Just Duckie]

It would have been closer to 2009 if they bought new off the line instead of doing a rebuild.

[pez]

Looks like the Mars is back home, it's flying around over my place in Port Alberni right now....

[MarkG]

The only thing that matters is the number of gallons of water on the fire put on the fire at the end of the daylight. In almost every circumstance one CL415 can out produce the MARS, and is much more flexible and requires far less ground support. The day of the MARs is over and they belong in a museum

Sounds like sour grapes to me...................

Yeah and it can land at an airport.Where is the Mars going to stay,

big piston forever sounds like a museum curator without the knowledge , get your facts strait about both aircraft .At shasta lake the Mars did 110.000 gals in 7hrs working alongside 7 c-130's that did 45.000 gals in the same time period that's hardly a slouch for an operation .

[MarkG]

Anyone know why they haven't converted the big girls to Turbines? Has it ever been considered? Too expensive? Those are some lucky guys that get to fly her

The only turbines allowed on the Mars are Power Recovery Turbines.All other turbines need not apply.

[pez]

The only turbines allowed on the Mars are Power Recovery Turbines.All other turbines need not apply.

Does it have Power Recovery Turbines? I thought it did, but was told during a tour of Hawaii Mars last summer that it did not. Prior to that, my understanding had been that all R3350s had them. The story was that a later variant of the aircraft was planned with uprated R3350s which would have had the PRTs....

Cheers,
Colin