If I were in charge

[Cat Driver]

Avcanada and Troops. :

I do not have any written record of TC telling me that they have a set mandate to get a 27% failure rate in all written exams.

However I do have witnesses to our conversation, it occured at an unanounced visit by two of the top guys from Ottawa and a TC inspector from Vancouver to my flying school some years ago.

My instructors will never forget the conversation because of how difficult their unannounced dog and pony show turned out to be. The guy thought I was probably the janitor or something and treated me like I was some kind of virus that he did not want to catch. Anyhow for sure it was a 27% failure rate that he said he was after.

When I suggested the concept of the student having 100% knowledge of the subject that idea was as foreign to him as life on Mars.

They started the conversation by asking if we had any questions we could ask.

You would never ever in your wildest drug induced fantasy ever imagine the answers these three cretins were giving to me when I was asking them questions. It finally got to the point were everyone in the office realized that this was getting out of hand, finally the guy made the mistake of suggesting that maybe I should not have an instructors rating because of my lack of respect for their system.....

So I finnally had enough and kicked their asses not only out of my office, but made them move their Bell 206 helicopter off my property or I was going to call the RCMP and charge them with tresspass..........( they were stuck in below VFR weather ) so they hovered over to the terminal.

Funny but I never ever saw nor heard from them again.............................

Naw, it wouldn't be any problem getting someone else to remember our conversation.

Why doesen't someone contact Jim Dow the top gun in flight training and ask him if they still have the same 27% failure rate expectation.

He won't communicate with me because of my ongoing legal problems with TC. In fact I just sent him another e-mail request for answers to some pressing issues that I need for my legal problems with TC........but alas I do not expect for him to answer, they just hate digging their own graves so to speak.

Hell he probably wouldn't communicate with me even if I did not have a legal problem with TC. Mainly because they feel that I do not show them the respect they crave.

Hey I have another bright idea, I've never been able to figure out what if anything that guy in ATAC (flight training dept.) knows about these subjects I think his initials are G.P............let me know what you find out.

Cat Driver:

The "if I were in charge" person.

[mcrit]

Cat:
Last kick at the taildragger stuff for me. If a class one wanted or needed to learn how to fly a tail dragger, then all they would need is a check out, like pretty much any other pilot. It took me about 3 hrs to feel safe handling one myself. It took me about 15 hrs before I felt confident enough to teach on one.
As for the plans for supervising your class fours: the requirements are laid out with reasonable clarity in the CARs, and where explained to me with great clarity by the inspectors here in Ontario region. The supervision system was designed and implemented ensure that junior instructors recieved the mentoring that they needed. The sad state of instructor skills these days means that system isn't working. You'll love the reason why: Flight school operators ignore it, (this is the part that you'll love), and TC doesn't get in their hair enough about it
Someone else was making the point that they still didn't think that someone knew enough about flying to teach it after 250 hrs. To an extent you are right. If a person spends 250 hrs doing strictly circuits and cross country, then they are pretty much useless. If that person spends 250 hrs 'improving general flying skills' (read manuvering in slow flight, advanced stalls, forced approaches, and speciality TOs and landings), like the CARs say they're supposed to then I'll bet they're a pretty good pilot. Its not the amount of time, it's how its spent. Again, I sight the BCATP. If you don't believe me look it up. You can read about it in Wings for Victroy by Spencer Dunmore. Stop by CNC3, I'll loan you my copy

[Cat Driver]

mcrit :

Thanks for the offer, but I was only jerking your chain about not knowing what is required to supervise a class 4.

And with regards to CAR's when they first started working on them I was a chief pilot for a company operating C117 cargo planes and recognized a real disaster when I first started trying to read them.

Even TC can't agree on how to interpet the CAR's and we are about to get thousands of revisions so I can just imagine the mess that will be.

Anyhow these discussions do more good than harm.

I agree that many schools lack for proper supervision of their class 4's and TC does not really do much in a hands on way to moniter schools, TC is more paper work oriented, all a school has to do is keep the paper work flowing showing that all the rules and regs are being adhered to and that will satisfy TC. For TC its all about avoiding any liability on their part.

It is all based on liability, as long as TC is covered with the proper paper work they will close their eyes to reality.

By the way just to clarify something I do have a fair grasp of the training industry having owned a flight school teaching both fixed and rotary wing flying..........

As to instructors......well like I just said, I owned a flight school.

By the way I still operate my own flight training business and in fact just received an e-mail asking me if I can spend about two weeks in Holland giving type rating training to four pilots some time in May.

I gave them a cut rate flat fee for 16 hours in the airplane and the ground school....4,000 Euros plus air fare and all expenses......

The reason I gave them a cut rate is I know a couple of the guys and the airplane was the first PBY I water bombed with.

Cat

[duplicate2]

It has been a while since I have done a TC exam but are they still doing paper multiple choice exams?

TC is currently switching to a computer based multiple choice exam system in several regions. I felt it was a pretty good system (other than still having to deal with paper for the various x-country details and performance charts) and have heard other positive feedback. I believe the exams are still presented as a complete set, i.e. it is still possible to get the exact same exam questions as someone else.

[N2]

Hey I have an idea...first one in a while so don't stop me now. Why not have the people in TC write an exam before they are allowed to work? That should weed out about 99.9% of them! Of course it would be written in the same BS'd fashion that they have grown accustom to administering tests to us in! Oh yeah don't forget recurrency training (at their own expense) and medicals too!

[cyyz]

Why not have the people in TC write an exam before they are allowed to work?

ROFL.. Watch the lawsuits roll in, as you mentioned 99.9% of their staff would be fired.. But good idea.

Reminds me of the people at the Ontario Driving centers. They ride bikes or take the metro to work.. Maybe they should get people who drive to examine drivers..

[johnnyshoeshine]

It sounds to me like Cat Driver is someone who was turned down when he tried to get in an instructor course somewhere and now he is bitter. I am instructor and I have taught Private Commercial, Multi IFR, Tailwheel and Aerobatics. I agree that tailwheel time helps a pilot I also state that it is not a necessity to male a good pilot.

Some of my best students have never been in a Tailwheel Aircraft before. And as for Class 1's looking at planes they cant fly........one or two flights in that plane and they could...It is too bad we have a guy like CatDriver come on here and b*t*h about aviation and instructors when he really is just a scared 200 hour pilot himself sitting in his moms basement.

[justplanecrazy]

ohhhhh Johnny... bite your tongue and go find another student

[duplicate2]

It is too bad we have a guy like CatDriver come on here and b*t*h about aviation and instructors when he really is just a scared 200 hour pilot himself sitting in his moms basement.

Seeing as you joined avcanada TODAY, maybe it would have been a good idea to take a second or two to see who you are flaming before you jump in. In Cat Driver's case, all you would have had to do was check his profile and website to find out.

[N2]

Cat, if you can stop laughing long enough I am dying to see your come back!

Johnny boy...step 1, open mouth....step 2, insert foot.....think ya get the picture.

[justplanecrazy]

What an excellent first post!!!!!!!!!! Lets give a warm welcome for the freshly baked and about to be fried model flight instructor!

Personally I think you should reread your PDM manual before you continue posting!

[Cat Driver]

I have a better idea for Johnny............

Just go to TC and have a look at my past record and if you can find anything that would support your description of me, post it here...

But you must name the TC official who gave you "anything" that would discredit my background....

That is the fair way to get to the truth.

Johnny, here is a deal for you...........I normally have a minimum charge of 500 Euros per. day for part time flying instruction.

But for you I'll make an exception, you come out to Nanaimo and I'll fly with you one hour for free to see what you can teach me.

Cat Driver:

[N2]

Justplanecrazy is Johnny freshly baked or half baked?

[justplanecrazy]

I haven't seen any comments on this, still looking for some feedback:

I'll outline some suggestions for the new Commercial Training/Testing and then you can critique them along with everyone else out there.

Added Ciriculum:

Stalls:
Departure Stalls: 60 degree climbing stalls
Descending Stalls
Recovery Stalls: Stalls at a higher than normal airspeed simulating a bad recovery from a regular stall.

Landing/Takeoffs
Crosswind: 10kts of 90 degree crosswind,
Short Field: Draw out guidlines for each plane ie. No more than 20% over POH listings.
Soft Field: Do an actual soft field landing/takeoff in a soft field. Or require a simulated one without touching the nosewheel to the pavement.

In flight handling
Slow Flight: Not just straight and level but thirty degree bank turns climbing and descending.
Chandelles
Lazy Eights
Wing Overs

[cyyz]

I haven't seen any comments on this, still looking for some feedback:

I'll outline some suggestions for the new Commercial Training/Testing and then you can critique them along with everyone else out there.

Added Ciriculum:

Stalls:
Departure Stalls: 60 degree climbing stalls
Descending Stalls
Recovery Stalls: Stalls at a higher than normal airspeed simulating a bad recovery from a regular stall.

Chandelles
Lazy Eights
Wing Overs

The stalls would lead to many deaths as would the aerobatics. I wouldn't have felt safe being instructed with some of my instructors..

As for the items that were erased. Those were included in the training.

But with a proper instruction, sure I would have enjoyed doing the aerobatics.

[mcrit]

justplane:
I suggested adding the stalls/slow flight in a previous thread. As for the wingovers etc, I don't see much point. They really don't require that much finesse on the controls and the time could be better spent on other exercises.
For the person that suggested that the stall practice would lead to more deaths:
I'll be blunt. You should be comfortable recovering from a stall in any configuration (given a safe altitude). If you aren't, then go and get some dual training until you are. I teach all of my students how to recover from a stall in any configuration. ie full power full flap climbing right turn. By the time I'm done with them they can get the a/c under control and only loose about 150'. Every instructor should be doing this with their students.

[cyyz]

I'll be blunt. You should be comfortable recovering from a stall in any configuration (given a safe altitude).

That's what a spin is supposed to be, a "departure stall." But when you practice it at 6000 ft, it loses it's "point."

Or losing a mark on your flight test for "entry into stall/spin/spiral didn't meet expectations"..

"now student enter the stall" 'cause you know, all the Air Canada pilots like to stall their planes on take off.

If you're going to practice something do it right. Do a "departure stall" on departure..

As I said, that would lead to many deaths.. But those that survived would prove to be good pilots.. Those that don't, obviously weren't meant to fly anyways.

But IMO knowing how to stall the plane and recover from it are two different items. And I'd rather fly with the guy who doesn't know how to stall/spin/spiral/crash the plane.

[mcrit]

And how would you suggest that one learn how to recover from a stall if one never stalls the aircraft?

[cyyz]

They can put me into the stall. I shouldn't have to show them how to stall it.

[FA28 guy]

The more any student learns before he is allowed to carry passengers the better. In the last few year I have noticed that the rudder doesn't seem to exist for pilots on final they correct with aileron and start the airplanr rolling and yawing. the yawing seems to get worse and worse as they slow down and get closer to the ground. Tail wheel would probably make student better than instrument training but try to find a tail wheel airplane that's affordable. More experienced instructor will always produce more knowledable students but where do you draw the line. At one time to be an instructor you had to have 200 PIC but thanks to the community college system that changed.

[justplanecrazy]

One of the worst cases of reasoning that I've ever seen!!!

I'll be blunt. You should be comfortable recovering from a stall in any configuration (given a safe altitude).

That's what a spin is supposed to be, a "departure stall." But when you practice it at 6000 ft, it loses it's "point."

Or losing a mark on your flight test for "entry into stall/spin/spiral didn't meet expectations"..

"now student enter the stall" 'cause you know, all the Air Canada pilots like to stall their planes on take off.

If you're going to practice something do it right. Do a "departure stall" on departure..

As I said, that would lead to many deaths.. But those that survived would prove to be good pilots.. Those that don't, obviously weren't meant to fly anyways.

But IMO knowing how to stall the plane and recover from it are two different items. And I'd rather fly with the guy who doesn't know how to stall/spin/spiral/crash the plane.

First off, how does unusual attitude recovery at altitude lose its point?? If you lose 1000' in recovery you have a pretty good understanding that you just killed yourself.

Second, when someone practices stalls, spins, spiral dives, they are learning the flight envelope. If you simply told a student that this will happen when in this configuration they would be paranoid of ever approaching that configuration. Someone who regularly stalls, spins, spiral dives his plane will know where the exact point is where the plane will lose control. Once they know this, they can be right next to this point without being in any danger of losing control.

What you're suggesting is give a kid a bicycle but never remove the training wheels. "Now daddy will show you what happens when you lean to far over. I won't let you do it though cause you might hurt yourself. (kid age 21)" Do you really want to fly with someone who's never removed the training wheels???

That's like saying you want to take a trip on a plane where the pilot has never handled an emergency over the seasoned air force pilot who's dealt with it all and survived. According to your reasoning the pilot who's never had to deal with an emergency won't get into one.

How does it smell up there? Your head being in your ass and all

[cyyz]

How does it smell up there? Your head being in your ass and all

A refined smell, that of a french prostitute.

Like you mentioned an airforce pilot who's done and survived it all.

When little timmy has a stall at 50ft he's going to die, even with his training.

When the british soldiers advanced on the Americans it was found that most of the muskets still had the ball/bullet inside it. They hadn't even fired a shot, but they were trained on how to use the item.

Fear and panic will set in for several pilots and they'll crash, even though they've been trained. Some will even kill themselves because they were "following the book."

The only way you can guarantee 100% that a pilot will not freeze or panic in a departure stall is if they encounter it first hand.

That's why numerous companies have created "surviving a water crash".. Commonsense dictates, plane is in the water get out... Why do these people need to get trained on this? With such extreme detail? Because they've done studies showing people panic, don't know what to do etc. Even the military has its dunk tanks.. Why?

You can't beat the real thing.

If you want, we can continue to argue. But like you said "my head's up my arse" and so is yours so we'll never agree.

But as I stated in my original post, "IMO" "in my opinion".

[Shiny Side Up]

No, if you want a guarantee on something, buy a toaster. Not even that is going to guarantee someone is going to recover from it when they do it themselves, besides, if we believe the low opinion of instructor competence around here, what's to guarantee that he's going to recover every time?

The whole point of stall recoveries, and a lot of the recovery procedures, is to make it an ingrained response. Horn goes off - recovery initiated. That's not to say that you're going to be 100% successful. Like your above example, despite modern training in realistic situations some soldiers faced with real combat still hesitate - The key is most of them don't. (otherwise we wouldn't have war!) Fortunately for us, flying airplanes isn't as hazardous as combat is, and not nearly as stressful.

Secondly, like any good instructor knows, scare your students enough and they might not come back. I hate to remind some people here but we're not in the military and we're generally not training people for combat! If we're flying F-18s then by all means! But most people I know are doing there PPL on a clapped out 172 or some similar hard done to beast. Unless they're going commercial - in which case they'll have that whole 150 hours of time building to improve their skills to really qualify to fly other people around - chances are they just want a licence to go bomb around the patch on Sunday.

[duplicate2]

If you're going to practice something do it right. Do a "departure stall" on departure..

As I said, that would lead to many deaths.. But those that survived would prove to be good pilots.. Those that don't, obviously weren't meant to fly anyways.

That's why numerous companies have created "surviving a water crash".. Commonsense dictates, plane is in the water get out... Why do these people need to get trained on this? With such extreme detail? Because they've done studies showing people panic, don't know what to do etc. Even the military has its dunk tanks.. Why?

You can't beat the real thing.

Commonsense would also dictate that when simulating an underwater egress, you don't do it by strapping people into a real plane and dropping it in the ocean. It's in a controlled environment (=pool) with numerous safeguards (=divers, lifeguards, etc). Your example is actually a better analogy for practicing departure stalls at altitude.

I would also think that using deaths during departure stall training as a way of weeding out weak pilots (and apparently weak instructors, or is this solo?) would not be indicative of commonsense. I think it's a pretty callous, unprofessional, and disturbing that any pilot would shrug off potential deaths of other aviators with a "them's the breaks" type attitude.

[mcrit]

Guys, I think that yyz is just trying to yank our chains. Nobody can be that dense as still run a computer. I suggest that we ignore him.