High speed rejects

[BCPilot85]

Hey folks,

Just starting a new job left seat on a 703 airplane and I'm wondering about what I'm going to say for takeoff briefings on short airfields and thought some of you might have an insightful take on the dilemma here. 703 airplanes are not limited by performance numbers in this country, so it must be pretty common for all you guys to get dispatched to short airfields with big loads that do not meet the ASDA of the runway, so just wondering what you all plan for engine failures below V1?

Is that an immediate reject, or does it depend on the takeoff flight path? Do you use flaps? Any special considerations?

And it would be cool to hear if this has happened to anyone too!

Share your thoughts..

BCP

[just curious]

Sadly, if you aren't flying a specialty built or 705 aircraft, an engine failure without asda is gping to be bad. I have known several people who have lost one of their engines on a strip without asda to have made it safely despite the charts, and one who survived the decision to continue in the air to a planned landing.

I have also, in the back of my logbook, seven people who died inthe dispute between the manufacturer and their gut feeling.

Short strips and small aircraft require fuel, airspeed and pessimism to operate safely.

JC

[BCPilot85]

I have also, in the back of my logbook, seven people who died inthe dispute between the manufacturer and their gut feeling.

Hey JC thanks for the input,

Do you mean that they rejected above V1 or continued below V1?

Just a thought but perhaps redline (VMC) would be a more appropriate decision speed on runways that do not meet ASDA?

[200hr Wonder]

First of all I can say this, have a plan... each aircraft/airfield/load/day is different. As you are new consult with your captain ask questions.

Most important, make a plan, brief it and stick to it. I would use something like. So if the unthinkable happens you know exactly what your going to do and just need to execute your plan.

[Gannet167]

Forgive my ignorance, I've never flown a 703 - but what exactly are you basing your V1 speed on, if at V1 you don't have enough runway to stop? Some point during the roll you have to pass through a go/no-go gate and presumably, V1 is that gate. If you don't have the runway to stop at V1, wouldn't it make a lot of sense to adjust your V1 to a lower speed at which you can stop by the end? If not, what's the value of having a V1 in the first place?

[Go Juice]

IF the runway is short, load heavy, what you can do is choose a lower decision speed.

Say, ok, this runway is pretty short, any malfunction before 60 kts (instead of lets say 95) I will reject.

[trey kule]

First of all , I have to ask.
a. If this is an issue for your operations, why was it not taught during your training?, and
b. If you were concerned about it, why did you not deal with the issue during your training, as you company may have specific procedures for their operation.
I really would like to know , as I simply can not understand why people are posting these types of questions here. The answers should be available during your initial training, and before your PPC ride.

Now, as to the actual question, I am a bit confused by some of the comments,as this is a 703 operation. What type of aircraft are we talking about here? As one poster put it ., on short, unbalanced strips you normally pick a point at which you need a certain speed or you abort at that point.even if everything seems to be working. After that point you look for a speed at which time you continue on or abort if you lose an engine. But typically with small fields there are so many other issues. No point in getting the plane into the air and fly into rising ground. better to shut down select gear up and slow down a bit and hit the trees at the end. unless of course it is a cliff at the end.
In any event, let us know what type of aircraft you are operating out of short strips with, if you really need to have your question answered on Av Canada rather than by your company training people. And maybe tell us where your company training people are in all this.

[iflyforpie]

Balanced field does not apply to 703 aircraft unless it is in the aircraft limitations. If you chose to take off on a non-balanced field, there is going to be a window of several seconds where an engine failure will have drastic consequences.

It is up to you to exercise risk assessment whether that is an acceptable risk or not. A strip in the Prairies with nothing but alfalfa off the end might convince me to stick to the ground and ride it out. One with water off the end and no obstacles might convince me to continue. A tight mountainous valley with obstacles and high DA might convince me not to go there in the first place.

Just about every twin out there does not meet balanced field requirements for my airport in the summer (except mine ) yet we get lots in and out, all the way up to light jets.

[Go Juice]

The 337 is awesome!!!

[Jastapilot]

at the 703 level I would say there is no V1 speed. I would, however consult my POH and determine a point on the runway where I'd be committed vs rejecting if something intowards happened. It's been a long time since I flew 703 but are there not landing distance charts you could potentially use for determining some kind of v1 speed or distance remaining on the runway point?

[BTD]

You can't just lower a v1 speed at will. V1 and choosing a reject point are two different things, as has been pointed out. A critical part of v1 is ensuring the aircraft has enough energy to continue a successful takeoff in the event of an engine failure. The aircraft still requires the same amount of runway to stop and the same amount of energy to continue regardless of what you pick "v1" to be. Lowering v1 artificially just means you might commit to takeoff when the aircraft is not capable of continuing.

Be reminded a v1 on a balanced field does not mean you are home free. V1 only relates to engine failures, any other failure is not a guarentee, unless your company has defined it differently.

[Panama Jack]

Balanced Field and V1 has nothing to do with CAR 703, 704, 705 or your own private airplane on a Sunday if you are rich enough to do it. It has EVERYTHING to do with whether the aircraft is certificated under Part 25 or not.

Flying daddy's Cessna Citation on a lovely Sunday afternoon for grins with the local bikini squad before firing up the barbeque? Yes, you must meet all of the performance limitations including Balanced Field before you can blast off on the grass strip.

IF the runway is short, load heavy, what you can do is choose a lower decision speed.

Say, ok, this runway is pretty short, any malfunction before 60 kts (instead of lets say 95) I will reject.

OK, if you lose a mill at 65 knots, does your airplane still have the where-with-all to CONTINUE the takeoff, maintain sufficient climb performance and clear the obstacles?

Vaya con Dios!

[Go Juice]

Panama: after re reading myself I see the confusion. I meant pick a spot at wich you think you should be @ 65, 75, 85 ect and use that as reference points on the runway.

[Cat Driver]

I meant pick a spot at wich you think you should be @ 65, 75, 85 ect and use that as reference points on the runway.

If you are monitoring the airspeed that closely who is looking at the runway/ take off path?

When I fly an airplane I use the airspeed only as a quick reference to confirm I am near lift off speed and rely on outside clues for speed combined with sound and flight control feel.

As to take off briefings, are you flying single pilot or two pilots?

[Check Pilot]

V1 only applies to FAR 25 or CAR 525 aircraft because they are published numbers in the approved Aircraft Flight Manual. So does Vr and Vse. If the AFM doesn't list those numbers it's all up to you. CAR 703 aircraft and a few CAR 704 do not typically have the manufacturer apply those numbers unless they are subject to FAR 25 or CAR 525. There is no guaranteed performance for any other aircraft.

V1 is a misnomer unless the POH says it's such and such a speed depending on DA and weight. Unless it's published in the charts for V1 it's just a number someone other than an engineer has picked - maybe your Chief Pilot or some other pilot - for example. Be cautious when you hear a "V1" number that's not published in the AFM. It's an opinion only. Have a look at the charts for your aircraft. If there is no info on runway lengths for V1 ASDA or distance to go charts (and they can sometimes be hundreds of pages) you don't have a specific V1 you can pin down.

If you are flying a FAR 23 or CAR 523 aircraft, the decision on when to reject or go flying is totally up to you. After 40 years of flying I hate RTO's. After 25 years of simulator and actual flying, I much prefer to get the piece of junk in the air and then handle the landing later than spending the time running from a burning airframe at the end of a take-off run.

[iflyforpie]

CAR 703 aircraft and a few CAR 704 do not typically have the manufacturer apply those numbers unless they are subject to FAR 25 or CAR 525. There is no guaranteed performance for any other aircraft.

CAR 704.45 says that all takeoffs must be balanced field regardless of aircraft type, though most will have a balanced field limitation anyways.

[Cat Driver]

I am on my second day of nothing to do in Toronto except rest and see if I can regain some strength as I am still way behind the curve energy wise.

So I thought I would share a pre take off briefing I learned from a pilot I was type rating on a PBY in Cape Town S.A.

It was simple and covered everything.

In the event of an engine failure before xxx we will reject the take off.

After lift off if we have a problem we will " Fly the aircraft" we will "Identify the problem " we will " Solve the problem " .

Simple and effective for airplanes that are not complex high performance.

That pilot was flying a 747 for South African Airways and went on to win the world unlimited aerobatic championship and is now on the Red Bull Air Racing Team.

Me I never amounted to much but I survived.

. E.

[Surveyrific]

.

[swordfish]

Sadly, if you aren't flying a specialty built or 705 aircraft, an engine failure without asda is going to be bad. I have known several people who have lost one of their engines on a strip without asda to have made it safely despite the charts, and one who survived the decision to continue in the air to a planned landing.

Short strips and small aircraft require fuel, airspeed and pessimism to operate safely.
JC

Pessimism is good. So is a little paranoia. And suspicion.

I drive a KA200 which has V1 & Vr at 95 in most of our planes (one is 98). One day with some room to spare in my recurrent training, we went up to 5000' to see how the plane handles at Vmcg (87, if I remember correctly). Well, not very well. After reducing to 87, then applying full power on the live engine with the other actually feathered but idling, gear down, flaps approach, it still yawed to the dead side, no matter how hard I tried to prevent it - with the criterion of not descending. Slow yaw, certainly, but not controllable.

The book says "reduce power on the operating engine to prevent yawing..." or words to that effect. Hello....NFW thanks, unless I would have to avoid an obstacle. You need every foot-pound of tq to stay level - PLUS add to this that you have to accelerate to 95 to climb at Vxse, then 121 to climb at Vyse.

Believe me, you'll have your hands full (at gross, which we were not).

However we do a lot on these 3000' gravel strips in warm weather and several times, I've used "most" of the runway to achieve 95. So if an engine is to fail somewhere between 87 and 95, I have an instantaneous decision to make: go off the end into the mulga and certainly write off the plane, with injuries, or continue and see if we can struggle thru the 87-95 kt window without hitting anything or descending.

After discussion with the copilot, we normally decide on the latter, as most of these places are pretty flat. Mercifully, I haven't had to test it yet.

Any ideas or input on this?

[Nark]

Concerning Vmcg:
It's my understanding that it's a speed at which your control surfaces become effect during the takeoff roll, not a single engine speed. Not to be confused with Vmca, minimum control speed airborne.
Also, it sounds like your demonstration shows that Vmc of 87 is too low an airspeed for that aircraft. Since you are yawing, which you are unable to control.
This was an exercise I had to prove as a Multi Engine Instructor during the checkride.

[BCPilot85]

Nark: Is a rate 1/8th turn worse than a tree in the face? I would prefer the former.. you're usually allowed to turn at 400' right? And how often is the weather even that low? Not my primary concern.

I understand the engineering aspect, that at Vmc you should be able to stay straight -- and that V1 you will be able to accelerate and climb.

What I'm wondering is, is about acceleration and climb at angles of attack higher than those that you encounter at V1. Will the plane accelerate and fly on one engine? Or would you just end up sending the aircraft into the ground at higher speed? I suppose that is a legal manoeuvre that we are not meant to understand.

[iflyforpie]

V2 is the speed where you can safely accelerate and climb with an engine out. V1 is the speed you can accelerate to and then safely reject.

V2 is typically higher than the aircraft needs to fly on all engines, but the regs say you need to be able to fly with one inoperative. So Vr gets pushed closer to V2 (we accelerate as we rotate) and V1 gets placed just below Vr.

V2 is on the back side of the power curve. Any slower than that and the drag becomes too great for the remaining engines to overcome. Since there is no altitude to lose to gain energy, your aircraft becomes slower until you reach Vmc, at which point you have to reduce power or auger in.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

However we do a lot on these 3000' gravel strips in warm weather and several times, I've used "most" of the runway to achieve 95. So if an engine is to fail somewhere between 87 and 95, I have an instantaneous decision to make: go off the end into the mulga and certainly write off the plane, with injuries, or continue and see if we can struggle thru the 87-95 kt window without hitting anything or descending.After discussion with the copilot, we normally decide on the latter, as most of these places are pretty flat. Mercifully, I haven't had to test it yet.

we do trips into 2800ft gravel strips all the time (YKD, YXP) in the BE20...
I have always been of the opinion that V1 is a hard number and if we have any major problem prior to that speed, I would reject come hell or high water and that runway length has zero influence on that decision. My rationale is that a V1 cut would still provide me with some runway to stop and I would prefer to overrun at a much reduced speed, in a survivable fashion than to horse the airplane into the air below flying speed and either stall or flip somewhere off the end of the runway (not a good thing in YXP!)
According the performance charts, given our "worst case" conditions of 20C and sea level, the ASDA numbers are around 3100ft, so theoretically, one should not be travelling too fast in this overrun situation...

so, that being said...Just had the oppurtunity to try this in the sim.
ISA conditions at sea level. Take off from a standstill, lose engine at 90 KIAS and attempt to continue the takeoff......
Had 3 attempts. 2 autofeather and 1 no autofeather

I was successful in all 3 attempts in getting the plane off the ground but....
a. she would not accelerate much past 100KIAS without descending
b. the ground roll was around 3800 ft. so to continue on the short runways means you will run off the end at a great rate of knots
c. took the better part of 1 mile (after lift off) to reach 50' (around 4000ft to reach 35' screen height)

and of course these results were from a trained, experienced crew in a sim (perfect airplane, brand new engines?) who were expecting the failure at the prescribed speed. Add a little startle factor and things get a even more hairy....



Still think that if you don't meet ASDA, it is still better to reject below V1, knowing you will overrun...but at a low (survivavble?) speed than the higher speed alternative....
and at that point, I don't much care about the final condition of the airplane so much as the occupants. I can always get another airplane.....

food for thought.

BBB

[swordfish]

Because they are gravel, we can't apply full power before brake release, so all takeoffs are rolling. Similarly, the gravel runway extends the hard-surface figures, so I imagine we cannot replicate the sim performance.

One mindset I try to develop is that an engine IS going to trip out at 87. Sometimes I miss it, but I am "expecting" an engine failure every takeoff. We haven't had the luxury of sim training for this type yet...

On 25° days, we are leaving (usually near gross) with 2 or 3 lights remaining on the runway. "Breath-taking".........

[Brantford Beech Boy]

Yes it is a rolling start but you're also not overcoming so much inertia and hence a faster acceleration...so...1/2 dozen of one, 6 of the other...

as for the mindset, I agree.
Since I can remember, I was always trained to be thinking "reject", primed to do so until I hear the majic word "V1" or "V1/Rotate", then its "Go,Go,Go..."

and beg/bribe/blackmail your CP or Ops Mgr or owner to get into Sim.

Worth every $ just to be able to do the things you can't in the plane....like losing engines below V1 and continuing.....

Cheers
BBB