ACPA's Pilot Placement Committee - Thoughts For The Future

[accumulous]

As ACPA prepares to terminate its Fellow Aviators, George Vilven and Neil Kelley, it will signal the end of career fruition for the overwhelming majority of its entire Membership.

As we all know, a Tribunal ruling of 30 years ago ended the hiring age restriction at Air Canada and by default at all Canadian Airlines. Every Canadian operator followed that lead, if they hadn’t already.

Hiring into one’s 30’s and 40’s became the norm to the extent that Air Canada careers have shortened to a scant 15 – 20 years in a lot of cases, while they flourish everywhere else, and with mid-30’s hiring now being the norm, a massive number of AC Pilots wind up 10 years short of their career progression cap, a situation unmatched anywhere else on the North American Continent.

Virtually no-one can make the cap on the spread sheet that is now before us.

ACPA has paid its lawyers heavy coinage to find a way to cement a lid on Air Canada Pilot jobs at 60, and despite overwhelming AC evidence to the contrary, even when every other International Airline on the North American Continent can accommodate pilots, and even in the face of Vilven and Kelley being accommodated, a Tribunal has ruled that they cannot be accommodated.

ACPA has all but attained its goal of ending the careers of its entire demographically-challenged Membership at Air Canada.

A Tribunal has ruled that Discrimination has taken place but accommodation is impossible for these 2 Pilots and therefore it is impossible for anyone else.

The price for terminating these two gentlemen is high indeed. If accommodation cannot be found on the existing evidence and comprehensively so in Thwaites, then ACPA will not find accommodation for itself after the fact.

Consequently, ACPA has ensured that all 3000 Air Canada careers will end prematurely in relation to the rest of the entire Piloting profession.

Parliament will follow that up with solid compliance in the case of its flag carrier in the forthcoming Federal Mandatory Retirement amendment.

This leaves all of Air Canada’s Pilots on the demographic hook of leaving their own Airline.

Most of the AC Pilots came from the other Canadian carriers who have all had open-ended careers for eons now, to progress to Air Canada.

It is a known fact that all of the other Canadian and North American Carriers can and do accommodate and it is also a known fact that they can and do hire pilots after 60.

For the vast majority of AC pilots who are all demographically challenged, who will not be allowed to advance their careers at their own Airline, Air Canada, the options are now straightforward.

These pilots all paid the price to get to Air Canada, spending a huge amount of time and personal resources to get here.

The cost of getting up the ladder was something that all AC Pilots are familiar with.

The competition is high, the price is high, and the sacrifice is high, and every AC Pilot has lived through it.

Hundreds of AC Pilots also paid the ultimate price in other ways in terms of delaying having families until their career aspiration of reaching Air Canada materialized. As a result of that, so many pilots are now going to be permanently redundant at their own Carrier just when the kids are into University, and other goals that previously had to be sidelined for this thing called Flying, are just now being addressed, as ACPA prepares them for their ultimate fate.

It took a lot of years for most of the guys to make it here, and for so many, it comes halfway through the closed loop of Air Canada’s one-of-a-kind career ladder. And ACPA has seen fit to permanently end the option of career progression for everyone.

That leaves the options of returning to the Carriers that almost all the AC pilots came from in order to remain employed. Some AC pilots came from American Carriers and also overseas, and many have multiple citizenships, and that will certainly make finding employment less of a challenge.

ACPA has previously employed a Pilot Placement Committee and perhaps now is the time to increase the scope and usefulness of that group.

With full career progression now signaled through ACPA’s insurgence as impossible at AC, but entirely possible and ongoing at all the other carriers, perhaps the least that ACPA can do for its membership is to ramp up the Pilot Placement Committee to take on a much more proficient role.

Liaison with Service Canada’s Employment Services division and perhaps direct liaison with the MEC’s of the other carriers nationally and internationally could go a long way to opening the door to job prospects for the entire AC demographically challenged Membership who will now be on the street just when their careers get going.

For so many of the AC Pilots, the role of the Pilot Placement Committee will now acquire paramount importance as our demographic challenge already puts us way out in left field on this Continent.

[LeadingEdge]

Yawn...

[The Raven]

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz....

[Old fella]

Perhaps this Air Canada forum should made a private one through the usual id and password from those who work or have worked at AC. To the outside, most, if not all couldn't give a grey rat's arse on the usual rant with this over 60 rule and the various unions, commentators(usually about the same six). What a waste of bandwidth........ it is getting real silly.

[accumulous]

Perhaps this Air Canada forum should made a private one through the usual id and password from those who work or have worked at AC. To the outside, most, if not all couldn't give a grey rat's arse on the usual rant with this over 60 rule and the various unions, commentators(usually about the same six). What a waste of bandwidth........ it is getting real silly.

There's nothing wrong with Pilot Placement - it has been a really effective tool for everything from LOA's to Furloughs - and it's an excellent Committee getting a lot of hits in the past - the point is that it appears it could be an even more important tool for a lot more guys in the future. There is ample reason to be looking at that resource.

[vortac]

The initial post on this thread is the most selfish, pathetic, self-righteous and unjustified whining that has ever graced these forums. Every sentence is so evidently laced with a lack of empathy and understanding of those that work hard and are perfectly content on retiring at a reasonable, fair-to-everyone and not JUST you age that has been agreed upon many decades ago when even you had big dreams even working as an airline pilot. You are not exempt from those that retired before you.

I don't think you are demographically challenged, more like empathy challenged towards anyone who walks behind you. How about blind to seeing the bright side of the future challenged.

For God's sake, walk away from your career with some dignity, honour and with the notion that many more, JUST AS DESERVING AS YOU young pilots will have the chance to enjoy the lifestyle that you so desperately refuse to give up. Most of all, and I know you need a voice but please stop embarrassing yourself.

-Vor

[accumulous]

Good points Vor and well taken. Cat o' Nine Tails and all that but what the hell a few stitches and back on deck.

Your conviction of your interpretation is not meant to be overlooked, and apologies for that. Wowzer, tough room.

The point is, at this juncture, you've won the case but it does affect a whack of other guys who can never make a decent career path on the demographic numbers. You can't fault them for that. It's obviously not your problem going forward but it does not bode well for a lot of other guys. Time will tell how the options play out.

[Mig29]

Hey ACC,

it's called LIFE buddy, with all due respect, but the rules of the games were clear from day one....no one should be surprise when the time comes to hang their hat and walk away with DIGNITY as Vortac said!

A group of 100 or so pilots should not be able to influence the other 2800 pilots. Whether you like it, but majority has voted against it and now the court has put a stamp on it too.

I can tell you one thing....I've never seen a more egoistic and workaholic nation than here in N.America. I came from europe where people are willing to take early/reduced retirement ANY DAY over working anywhere close to 65. Only some really miserable and unfortunate souls HAVE to work that long over there...People enjoy their life more there, trust me....I got there 2-3 times a year and it never stops to amaze me how ridiculously stupid we are here to fall prey to massive advertisement campaigns which force and brainwash us to buy more, newer, cooler things instead of appreciating what we already have. God forbid we invest few drops of sweat and effort in fixing the broken things we already have. You may not understand me, and you may throw Greece's or Italy's economic crisis in my face, but that is a result of trying to put Germany and Malta on the same power curve and blend everyone under Euro currency. I'm going too far off the topic here, as it's more complex, and only ignorant and blind will use the crisis in Europe to defend their ideology why we HAVE to work so hard here and for so long.....

We should be working towards reducing our working years, shortening duty periods and improving vacation and time off work in our industry, instead we just crushing our profession and become simply put slaves of our own long forgotten passion for flying....

Plan ahead and enjoy you retirement sir, there's more to this career and life then reading the find print in your contract every day so that you don't get screwed by someone quick to point fingers at you, sitting comfortably in his office reading stock prices so he can buy another villa on some Greek island for dirt cheap after their economy is crushed! Again, that's another story I'm not going to get into

[accumulous]

Great points and love your perspective - not everybody's cuppa joe hence we're in this court connundrum - yes everybody should live the entire week like Italians on a Friday night but again those are choices. Only saying as we make those choices disappear aka last Friday, options dilute like a cheap drink. You actually went or allowed somebody to take you all the way up to FL380??

[MackTheKnife]

Only saying as we make those choices disappear aka last Friday, options dilute like a cheap drink.

This isn't over by a long shot ACC. It's a 10 round fight and the FP60 group was just delivered a low blow by an errant referee.

An appeal is just around the corner. Count on it.

MTK

[accumulous]

There are clearly so many errors in law it’s hard to keep track of them all, and yes, the Federal Court will shred it like the Pilots shredded TA1 and most of their own Executive, but the Tribunal didn’t have any evidence. Thwaites will provide the clear picture.

It’ll go one of two ways. Open-ended career for 3000 AC Pilots or shortest relative aviation career on the continent for 3000 AC Pilots. If the latter is a done deal, there are some potentially good things that can come from a Kamikaze move like this.

Given the amount of outsourcing of AC flying, there shouldn’t be any shortage of jobs out there as each AC Pilot hits 60 and the bricks at the same time. Finding something close to home is generally a crap shoot and the only other impediment will be the conundrum with all other carriers having open-ended careers. That will stifle the demand somewhat but still with worldwide demand moving upward, there should be a considerable number of vacancies. It’s a known fact that WestJet hires at 60, as do the others so it’s not a total bust. For all the guys hired in their 30’s and beyond, which is the clear majority these days, for those guys who want to remain employed, really all it would take is a negotiated right to have one or more type endorsements renewed at the exit as a lot of potential employers request that ticket. Looking at how pilots have handled forced retirement in the past, the other carriers like to get you right when you come out the door at AC so it would pay to have more than just a few different endorsements. For example the short B767/B757 conversion courses have helped a lot of guys. It does pay in the long run to get as many endorsements as you can fit on the card.

[Rockie]

With SkyRegional Air Canada has discovered a plentiful source of very experienced pilots at the young age of 60, who are willing to continue working for much reduced wages. ACPA is bent on feeding Air Canada those pilots, and given the enthusiasm with which they were shown the door by their brothers their conscience won't be bothered by taking work away from them.

Cause and effect boys. Think about it.

Like taking candy from a baby for Air Canada management.

[mbav8r]

Just to wade in on the demographics issue, which is changing on a continual basis. Any delay in retirement, will inevitably delay hiring. As you pointed out a vast majority of the current pilots won't make 20-30 years. This means to me, there will be a spike of retiriements over the next 5-10 years and then it will level off. While there is a spike, there will also be a hiring boom drawing in all the qualified pilots, depleteing the pool of older candidates. So I think if the retirements continue, it will likely mean the new hires at AC will get younger and younger and they will be able to fully enjoy a 30+ year career at AC, providing it's still around.
Any delay in retirement will delay hiring and perpetuate the problem of the new hires average age of 35.
So yes, the current average AC pilot will not enjoy a 30 year career at AC, but as the hiring demographics change, so to will the average length of career and this will put less pressure on the pension.
Thoughts?

[Rockie]

The demographic argument cannot be argued unless you use the whole thing. People live longer putting more strain on pensions. More and more retirees are having to be supported by fewer and fewer workers which is a massive problem all governments are struggling with. And your theory on newhires getting younger and younger is not supported by any evidence.

[accumulous]

So yes, the current average AC pilot will not enjoy a 30 year career at AC, but as the hiring demographics change, so to will the average length of career and this will put less pressure on the pension.
Thoughts?

There used to be a copy of ACPA's own internal study on Mandatory Retirement floating around and somebody should locate that piece. It apparently shows the distinct benefit to the DB Pension of ending Mandatory Retirement. It's kicking around somewhere. It was likely boxed and sent to Area 51 along with a few other items when the senior pilot extermination program commenced but there's simply no question that no matter which end of the demographic spectrum you use to pad the Pension, it works when you're putting in and not taking out. The point however is that ACPA clearly offered the Pension back to the Corp on a silver platter just before the impeachments so even trying to sort through the forensics of this convoluted mess will be a daunting task for anybody. It's here, it's gone, it's up in the air, who knows where it is. There seems to be a mad rush to give it away with the rest of the bath water. It's like the Titanic when they were just throwing anything they could get their mitts on overboard in a last ditch frenzy. The Pension isn't likely on the big radar screen at the moment with the big ship listing hard to port you sort of get other priorities like trying to figure out which way is up.

[mbav8r]

And your theory on newhires getting younger and younger is not supported by any evidence.

You're absolutely correct, it's a theory, not a statement of fact. I based my theory on the fact that while the hiring boom slowed, the average age of new hires increased. So supposing a spike in retirements combined with some of the predicted growth, one could assume the average age of new hires will come down. The last boom had Jazz hiring college grads, average age 22(not based on fact, just a guesstimate).
As for the pension and retirees living longer, I guess if the new hires are younger and contributing longer, it may provide some balance, as opposed to contributing for 20 years and drawing for 40, albeit a lesser pension.

[Rockie]

What you suggest is entirely possible. However there are countless variables that could effect the pool of pilots and the age at which they are hired. For instance people keep talking about a massive pilot shortage that never seems to actually materialize. Westjet could continue to eat Air Canada's lunch out from under them forcing us all out of work and producing a permanent pilot surplus until we disappear forever.

It's better I think to deal with the situation we do know about. ACPA's own research tells them ending mandatory retirement would be beneficial to the pension. How about we go with that for now since it is hard research (notwithstanding the fact they didn't show us)?

[mbav8r]

If they didn't show you, how do you know the research isn't rife with flaws?
For example did the research consider, what if the new hire average age went down?
There are alot of variables, no doubt and know real way of predicting the true outcome of either senario. What is true, Air Canada and ACPA are spending a great deal of time and resources fighting open ended careers, to what end, is all guesswork.

[Rockie]

I know because they didn't show us, plus it is supported by similar research and plain old common sense. People contribute more and withdraw less, it's pretty obvious. What they did show us was the financial impact study that most definitely was full of holes. I pointed out several gaping ones that completely invalidated the entire study to an ACPA rep at the time (the one who really should have known the answer) and he had no answer for it. Something else they didn't tell us.

[accumulous]

The internal study simply showed the benefits to the membership that come with the end of mandatory retirement. The doc has surfaced, however, anybody who has been even remotely conscious lately can see, there are much more odourific fish being fried.

Pension and all those issues are simply not part of the overall mess that exists today. Everything is seniority driven. Middle seniority is pretty much the flavor of the hour. It rams PG groups, LCCs, Pension sell-offs and the like down into the junior ranks and it fights desperately to grind senior pilots off the top. It's like the old classic experiment everybody took in University 101. Put a couple of rats in a small cage and it's almost liveable. Put 50 rats in there and they literally start eating each other. Precisely what you get when you are seniority driven with no leadership whatsoever. It colors every minute of the day. These are all nice hypothetical issues but the ink isn't even dry on all the impeachments yet and God only knows what they're having for lunch. The courtroom parade will continue until our general malaise is completely expunged and then it will be a sunny day for everybody.

[bearinmind]

What acc ment to say was, thank god for our legal system, and thank god someone has some sence to get it right. Lets all just move on, and let our retiree's retire and get the senority system moving like we ALL agreed to do.

.. and I agree!!

[Rockie]

and let our retiree's retire

Come now bearinmind, what you really mean is "force our retirees to retire".

[bearinmind]

I think the way I said it was nicer,.... potato, tomato...

Please remember that the victims are the middle and junior pilot group that have a wife and 2 kids that they have to support. An earlier upgrade, or the odd weekend off goes a long way.

The people that we are asking to 'live up to their commitments' are not suffering any hardship, and I will be glad to step aside when my time comes. Unless they are on their third wife and 5th kid, we are not going to see them as a walmart greeter, they should be quite comfortable with what we all negotiated. It was designed this way. If they are fortunate to have joined us late in life, I have to assume that they had some type of job from 20 to 40, I would hope that they put a little money away in their first career.

Im not asking for a sequel to Logans Run here (great movie) where they hit 60 and we vaporize them, I just want them to relax, spend time with the family and enjoy retirement, or whatever you enjoy after your life here.

[Rockie]

Im not asking for a sequel to Logans Run here (great movie) where they hit 60 and we vaporize them, I just want them to relax, spend time with the family and enjoy retirement, or whatever you enjoy after your life here.

Yes it was a good movie, but I'm not in favour of semantics and dressing up pigs with lipstick to pretend they aren't what they are. You didn't mean "let", you meant "force". Nor do you want them to relax, spend time with the family and enjoy retirement. You want their job. Why don't you say that because then at least you would be being honest?

You also cannot make any assumptions about anybody's financial situation, or sit in judgement over the events that occurred in their lives.

[mbav8r]

Hey Rockie, just to be a thorn in your side, he did say it.

Please remember that the victims are the middle and junior pilot group that have a wife and 2 kids that they have to support. An earlier upgrade, or the odd weekend off goes a long way.