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 Post subject: Using DHC-6 tip tanks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:17 am 
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just read the post on Beaver tips and thought I'd open a thread on the Otter tips
what do you do , how do you use them?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:46 am 
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A very quick summary of the key points from the DHC-6 300 and 400 Series AFM supplements:

- Tip tanks each contain 37 Imperial Gallons (44.5 USG, 168 liters) of fuel, this is equivalent to 300 pounds of Jet A or A1 at standard temperature (ASTM D1655 specification).
- The auxiliary wing tanks are not approved for use during take-off, climb, descent, and landing (this because there is no 'standby' boost pump in the tip tanks).
- If tip tank fuel is required to reach the destination, it must be used prior to PNR (again, because there is no 'standby' boost pump in the tip tanks)
- Tip tanks can be refueled electrically (from the fuselage tanks) when the aircraft is on the ground - but this is not permitted in flight (it can empty the fuselage collector cell quickly)
- It is recommended that aircraft fitted with skis or floats not land on water, snow, or ice surfaces when the wing tanks are more than half full (this due to the probability of irregularities in the landing surface, and the resulting bending moments imposed on the wing by the weight of the fuel in the tip tanks)

Full details are contained in AFM Supplement 8, 'Auxiliary Wing Fuel Tanks'

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:49 am 
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I hate to be the one to correct you, but there is no reason you can not use the tip tanks during take off and landing. The tip tank pumps provide a higher pressure then the fuselage pumps. You do not select the fuselage pumps off when running off the tip tanks. Therefore the fuselage pumps are the backup for the tips. This is not only referenced by the Flight Safety DHC-6 Manual page 5-13 here is the exact wording below, although I am sure you know it better then me...

To supply wing fuel to the engines, the wing fuel tank switches are moved to the ENGINE position. The fuselage boost pumps should not be turned off. The wing fuel pumps have a higher output pressure than the fuselage tank boost pumps, and wing fuel will force its way to the engine. If wing tank fuel supply should fail or become exhausted, fuselage fuel pres- sure will assure an uninterrupted supply of fuel to the engines.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:25 am 
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FlyTheLine wrote:
I hate to be the one to correct you...


I hate to be the one to correct YOU, but I'm the guy who writes the Twin Otter AFM. :D I have attached two images below for your review. The first is a scan of the page from the Series 300 Wing Tank AFM Supplement that was published in 1979. This is the supplement you probably have in your AFM now if you are using a Revision 52 AFM.

The second image is a scan of a page from the current issue of the Series 400 AFM. Viking is currently in the process of distributing Revision 53 of the Series 300 AFM to operators who subscribe to the AFM revision service. Revision 53 is a complete re-write of the Series 300 AFM that brings the book into line with GAMA Specification 1, and also results in the Series 300 and Series 400 AFMs being very similar to each other. The limitations page of the Series 300 Wing Tank AFM Supplement at Issue 5 will be identical to the Series 400 Wing Tank AFM Supplement at Issue 1.

I think you are reading too much into the FlightSafety training manual. I don't know what version of that training manual you have. If it is Revision 2 or 3 (both of which date from the mid 1990s), well, I wrote those books too, and I know that I did not contradict the AFM. The technical description that you have cited is correct, however, that doesn't give you any permission to disregard the very explicit instructions printed in the AFM.

When reading AFMs and training manuals, "only read the black ink". In other words, don't read anything that you think might be in there 'between the lines', but isn't actually printed in black ink.

Michael

Extract from Series 300 AFM Supplement 8 at Issue 4
Image

Extract from Series 400 AFM Supplement 8 at Issue 1
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Ok I stand corrected, but just for my own interest then what is the reason you can not use them. Like I was saying you do back up the tip tank pumps with the fuselage pumps. I understand why you would not want to refuel them in flight, but it is only the difference in pressure (simplified) that makes the fuel flow to the engines, from the tips.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:02 pm 
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FlyTheLine wrote:
Ok I stand corrected, but just for my own interest then what is the reason you can not use them. Like I was saying you do back up the tip tank pumps with the fuselage pumps. I understand why you would not want to refuel them in flight, but it is only the difference in pressure (simplified) that makes the fuel flow to the engines, from the tips.

Because the AFM says it's prohibited.

The current Boeing manual for the 737NG says that you cann't use the center tank fuel below 10,000' on climb if below 5'000 lbs, on descent below 3,000 lbs and in cruise below 1,000 lbs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:41 pm 
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sarg wrote:
Because the AFM says it's prohibited.


But why does the AFM prohibit it? There must be some reason asides from because it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Phu wrote:
But why does the AFM prohibit it?


The short answer (without getting into a huge dissertation about aircraft certification regulations) is that the wing tanks were not tested during the take-off, climb, descent, and landing phases of flight. This was a logical decision by de Havilland (back in the day), because wing tanks are only needed during cruise - they exist simply to prolong the range of the aircraft.

The regulators who are responsible for aircraft certification (in the case of Canada, this is Transport Canada) are very safety-conscious people - something that all of us are very grateful for. So, when the regulators are reviewing a proposal from an aircraft manufacturer for a system such as wing tanks, the first thing they ask for is flight test data that proves that the system is absolutely safe and reliable under all possible circumstances. In the case of cruise flight, this means making sure that the wing tanks will work in all different aircraft attitudes, within all the permitted loading configurations, within the approved 'g' envelope, and so forth.

When the wing tanks were first submitted for approval by DH back in the late 1960s / early 1970s, DH only substantiated safe operation of them during the cruise phase of flight. This means that a limitation was published stating that they are only approved for use during the cruise phase of flight.

I can give you a similar, more recent example: The new Series 400 Twin Otters have two cigarette-lighter type plugs in the flight compartment for charging up cell phones and stuff like that. We (Viking) did not carry out 'flight tests' of these power outlets. For that reason, there is a placard near each outlet (and a limitation in the AFM) that says that the power outlets may only be used when the aircraft is on the ground. This is because we only tested them on the ground, not because anyone is aware of any possible problems that might arise if they were used in flight.

I know it all sounds very restrictive, but if you think about it, it is all directed towards operational safety. It's a good thing.

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:38 pm 
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The practical value of not using the tips for takeoff, (for the anti-authority types) is pretty simple. Yeah, they have a couple of PSI more pressure, and yeah, you will use it up first. And if the tips are full, then you won't have the problem of fuel sloshing away from the fuel drains.

The big problem is that humans are creatures of habit. Do it once and it works, then you will do that more and more often. So, one day you depart and have to maintain a sustained bank on departure or climb out at a steady 80 knots for obstacle clearance. the fuel in the tip isn't reaching the drain and the pump runs dry. No problem, you're still conscientious enough to leave the main fuel pumps running. So, no engine failure. and when you decrease the pitch the fuel fills the pump and it starts up again.

The net result is that you have reduced the service life of that tip pump my half. Or fried it completely. An engineer is gonna MEL the pump, tie wrap the breaker, and not order a new one AOG. Y ou are now short a half hour fuel for a month.

You could however, wait until you are in level flight like the book says. And in cruise. and at say 580 ponds per hour burn. And note the time, turn the tips on, and turn them off just short of an hour, and turn'em off. Then, A) you would have got an actual hour out of them, and B0, not have an engineer getting freezing cold fuel running down their arm doing a tip-pump change.

Just sayin'


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Okay, so I understand now. Although I now have a new question with respect to the cigarette lighter plugs on the 400. Is there a reason that you didn't test them in flight? Cost perhaps?
Wouldn't being able to use the cigarette lighter plug only when the aircraft is on the ground severely limit its applications?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:06 am 
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That is for standard tip tanks - there was a time we were not allowed to use tip tank fuel as IFR reserves - since the dehav system was so mickey mouse. The MNR modded theirs so they were in fact used to come home with and they sent fuel to the belly tanks not to the engines - I believe fuel was required to be in the tips for over 12500 operations such as bombing as well -- I'm sure someone can give better details than I -- all I know is that tip tanks the way de Havilland designed them was an example of out thinking themselves for sure -- nothing worse than fuel in a tip tank and not being able to get at it --


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:51 am 
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Ya, the MNR twotters are of the same type of fuel system as the military ones and there are some differences but I don't recall what exactly. Maybe someone with military experience could shed some more light on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:50 am 
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So were the MNR's wings modified for the upgross? I've heard the tips are full when waterbombing? Anyone have access to the AFM supplement for waterbombing with the whip amphibs?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:06 am 
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Phu wrote:
..I now have a new question with respect to the cigarette lighter plugs on the 400. Is there a reason that you didn't test them in flight? Cost perhaps?


No, it was not the cost, it was time pressure (to get the aircraft certified and out the door). We'll probably get the in-flight testing of the convenience outlets done during the next round of certification testing, and that will enable us to remove the in-flight use limitation in the future.

Michael


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:06 pm 
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When in remote or 3rd world places where ladders are non existant or the bowser only has a airliner quick disconnect with MM(mickey mouse) adapter for small A/C the trick is to switch over on landing to pump into the tips and when you get to the ramp to shut down the tips are full and you then only need to fill the belly. Assuming of course there is enough left in the belly to do so.


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