Too Much Crosswind For A Fully-Loaded 172!

[Shiny Side Up]

Then again, I wasn't debriefed like you were, and I do very much think being able to slip and teach slips is important.

I guess you had to be there. If indeed that the test candidate had done a poorly planned approach as a demo, why weren't they failed on that? When I challenged the examiner on his verdict, his reasoning was a very simple "I don't think slips are safe manuvers for private pilot level students". Despite his opinion, he was reluctant to hold it against the student in terms of his actual grade, nor would he put the critisism down in writing when I asked for it. I should note that the slip wasn't the only thing on the test he was very vocal about that instructors should be doing differently, yet again refused to put it on record.

You mentioned all the loopholes the examiner supposedly jumped through -- but these are real barriers to entry for someone unqualified.

I'm getting less and less sure of that. There's becomming a lot of bad eggs in that basket which is supposed to be our quality control at Transport.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The actions of the C 172 pilot are IMO, an example of the what I think is the number 1 problem in CPL training. Instructors are not demanding good basic stick and rudder skills. I am personally distressed at how many newly minted CPL's, chase the airspeed, don't have the aircraft in trim, land off the center line at what ever point along the runway they happen to be when the aircraft runs out of airspeed etc etc.

I ride CPL's like a cheap Ho. They get really tired of me saying "it is just as easy to fly at 3000 feet as it is to fly at 3031 feet". Chase the airspeed and I just cover it up, from start up to shut down if necessary. This ultimately has nothing to do with TC, flight test standards or the CPL course outline. It is something that us instructors can collectively decide to make a priority.......

[AEROBAT]

The guy is obviously a half-wit to make a statement like that, saying slips are unsafe manouvers for private pilot students. Lots of planes don't have flaps or even stall horns.

What part of Canada did this happen in?

[Expat]

The actions of the C 172 pilot are IMO, an example of the what I think is the number 1 problem in CPL training. Instructors are not demanding good basic stick and rudder skills. I am personally distressed at how many newly minted CPL's, chase the airspeed, don't have the aircraft in trim, land off the center line at what ever point along the runway they happen to be when the aircraft runs out of airspeed etc etc.

I ride CPL's like a cheap Ho. They get really tired of me saying "it is just as easy to fly at 3000 feet as it is to fly at 3031 feet". Chase the airspeed and I just cover it up, from start up to shut down if necessary. This ultimately has nothing to do with TC, flight test standards or the CPL course outline. It is something that us instructors can collectively decide to make a priority.......

Funny you say that! I did the CPL ride with more post-its on the panel, than I wanted... Airspeed was the first one blocked, then RPMs, then the last circuit was without even altimeter... It was day, though...easy...

[2R]

The biggest crosswind i have experienced in a 172 and landed without any concern was 50 knots in St.George,Utah.
They came out to watch a crazy canuck crash.What they got was a free lesson on a perfect x-wind landing
The biggest wind straight down the tube was 70 knots in Courtenay in the 172.Crossed the fence at 120 in the 172 in an attempt to control the attitude for landing.Did i mention that Courtenay is not that long 1800 ft.With the right wind a 172 can be safely landed in about 150 feet.
The scariest crosswinds are never the constant blow ,it is the gusts that will challenge you.As the gusts will steal your lift and make attitude control difficult.Adding a gust factor of about half the gust helps maintain effective control.Although when it is blowing hard you may just have to fly it on at cruise speed and hope that some people are their to help walk the wings in off the runway so it does not flip over in the gusts.
A small gusting crosswind can catch a fella napping.I always watch out for the nasty little choppy gusts that are more dangerous than big constant cross-winds.
What is that thing they call wind shear again, i think i flew through some in the Bow Valley late one afternoon.Thinking about it makes me want to go to the bathroom for some reason.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The biggest crosswind i have experienced in a 172 and landed without any concern was 50 knots in St.George,Utah.
They came out to watch a crazy canuck crash.What they got was a free lesson on a perfect x-wind landing
The biggest wind straight down the tube was 70 knots in Courtenay in the 172.Crossed the fence at 120 in the 172 in an attempt to control the attitude for landing.Did i mention that Courtenay is not that long 1800 ft.With the right wind a 172 can be safely landed in about 150 feet.
The scariest crosswinds are never the constant blow ,it is the gusts that will challenge you.As the gusts will steal your lift and make attitude control difficult.Adding a gust factor of about half the gust helps maintain effective control.Although when it is blowing hard you may just have to fly it on at cruise speed and hope that some people are their to help walk the wings in off the runway so it does not flip over in the gusts.
A small gusting crosswind can catch a fella napping.I always watch out for the nasty little choppy gusts that are more dangerous than big constant cross-winds.
What is that thing they call wind shear again, i think i flew through some in the Bow Valley late one afternoon.Thinking about it makes me want to go to the bathroom for some reason.

A superior airman uses his superior judgement to avoid situations requiring him to use his superior skill.....

[767]

Slips shouldn't be necessary, no -- unless you're talking about the actual cross-wind landing attitude. What I'm pretty sure the examiner meant by that is that the airplane should not be so high as to require the pilot to make a slip on final to regain the appropriate approach profile. Idle power with full flaps is already an excessive descent rate. I haven't slipped an airplane in years. A crosswind approach on final should be made crabbed, on the extended centerline, with a transition to a slipping attitude just short of the runway threshold to line up the longitudinal axis of the airplane with the centerline. But slipping way back from the threshold.. no. You get inaccurate airspeed readings, scare the jesus out of your customers, are completely unstabilized and descending at an excessive rate. Unless I'm misunderstanding you but yeah I totally agree with the examiner a slip should never be necessary and in any 704 or 705 airplane the SOPs would more than likely dictate you execute a missed approach if you're that high, rather than make the airplane go sideways at the ground.

Thank you. You took the words out of my mouth. I want to add that forward slips are used if you "mess up" and need to get down quickly. They are not planned during the approach. I remember I had to do a checkout once, and the pilot would forward slip on every landing. He said that its how he always lands.

The side slip technique is used for crosswind landings. I like to teach crab during approach, and transition to side slip just before touchdown. Some people like to do a side slip when they turn for final, which is ok i guess but you will get tired quickly (legs)..

[Shiny Side Up]

Wow. I rest my case.

[robertsailor1]

50 knot cross wind in a 172, sorry mate but unless it was a very mild cross wind your getting into the religious category (as in not believable)

[iflyforpie]

Thank you. You took the words out of my mouth. I want to add that forward slips are used if you "mess up" and need to get down quickly. They are not planned during the approach. I remember I had to do a checkout once, and the pilot would forward slip on every landing. He said that its how he always lands.

I take it you've never flown an Aeronca or Taylorcraft or something without flaps that pretty much requires you to slip.


Slipping to salvage a bad approach is sloppy, but purposefully coming in steep and planning on using the slip there should be no problem with (unless you have sensitive passengers).

[Grantmac]

I take it you've never flown an Aeronca or Taylorcraft or something without flaps that pretty much requires you to slip.

I second that! Couple something fairly efficient like a T-craft or Luscombe with a cruise prop and/or a high idle, you'd better be happy slipping to nearly ground level.

[robertsailor1]

With the little bugsmashers its a good strategy to approach a little high and slip it off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW8GRJI6Kz4

[Beefitarian]

Also if I'm on a high approach and lose an engine I will still make the numbers. If you're dragging it in on the engine 500'gal 9 miles out, not so much. Finally ATC used to love to bring me in at 1000' up until short final. Pour on a nice forward slip and land where I want to snag the closest taxiway to the FBO in the warriorII.

[2R]

50 knot cross wind in a 172, sorry mate but unless it was a very mild cross wind your getting into the religious category (as in not believable)

Perhaps i was not as accurate as you might like.Landing KDXZ Rwy 19 with the wind 270/50 is actually closer to 45 knots than fifty only a madman would attempt to land in anything stronger
They CHAIN the airplanes down on the apron because of the winds at that airport.Just like most taildraggers you are flying it until it is tied-down.
A nice constant x-wind (mild as you might call it) is very easy to fly in,the gusty winds are the real challenge.
A low level jet such as those you might find falling out of the North Atlantic can create some very interesting approaches going into place Like Yarmouth.Ninety knot tailwind from Halifax to Yarmouth at low altitude got my attention.I would have set a record on the ground speed that day, but i wanted to slow it down in case i hit any speed bumps coming out of the low level jet.
Tough choice on airspeed choice as to slow and it can make you vulnerable to a stall ,too fast and you could wrinkle the wings or worse.The Pax were happy to get home so quick.
Keep it smooth

[767]

Slipping to salvage a bad approach is sloppy, but purposefully coming in steep and planning on using the slip there should be no problem with (unless you have sensitive passengers).

Ill agree with you, but only when the aircraft which you are flying "requires" you to forward slip for approach/landing. A 172 does "not" require you to slip, you use flaps instead. " " back to you

[Shiny Side Up]

A little while ago I was flying a Cessna 170, you know the airplane they put a nosewheel on the create the 172, when I was faced with the predicament of an obstacle landing into 1500' of grass. It was one of the more challenging things I've done in a while, but not a huge problem, I did this crazy thing where I slipped the airplane and had flaps down once I cleared that powerline on the approach. I guess what I did was probably wrong and a mark of unprofessionalism on my part - I guess the guy who paid me to do it was happy enough since he has since continued to hire me to fly his airplane for him.

But then again, I've been repeatedly told I don't know what I'm doing.

I do find it unfortunate that in this world I encounter more 767 type instructors, than I do any other type. I'm starting to realise that the aviation I love of flying small airplanes, for those simple joys of finding the secret places of the world, to see the hills, the sky, the lakes and the trees is disappearing. Those doing the teaching are almost always more interested in playing big airplane games and assume that everyone wants to be jetliner captain. They revel in procedure and checklists. The natural runway surface of grass will be alien to their polished shoes. Starting to think I should just go hide out at the nearby glider commune.

[Cat Driver]

You are not alone in how you feel Shiney.

Maybe we should start a retraining business to teach the basics to flight instructors who seem to have skipped that part of flying?

[tyndall]

Into the pattern comes a 172. Flies long, long legs. Overshoots on final, declaring that "there's too much crosswind for a fully loaded 172!" and he gives up on trying to land on the only runway, with 5 or 6 knots of crosswind.

While kudos for the guy not to force it and become a statistic, it sure sounds like he was blaming the equipment and not acknowledging his inexperience. Sad that he'll probably cancel future flights due to this "equipment limitation" rather than get some more training.

[Cat Driver]

The bottom line is if a commercial pilot can not land a Cessna 172 with a five or six knot X/wind he /she is unemployable in the charter flying industry.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The bottom line is if a commercial pilot can not land a Cessna 172 with a five or six knot X/wind he /she is unemployable in the charter flying industry.

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