ACPA's Pilot Placement Committee - Thoughts For The Future

[Rockie]

Hey Rockie, just to be a thorn in your side, he did say it.

Please remember that the victims are the middle and junior pilot group that have a wife and 2 kids that they have to support. An earlier upgrade, or the odd weekend off goes a long way.

Since upgrades are strictly a matter of seniority and always will be I don't know of a way to mitigate that. However when it comes to the odd weekend and holiday off plus better pay in the junior ranks there are ways to fix those problems without resorting to mandatory retirement. What's required is dislodgement from the same tired old seniority/formula pay system that is the cause of all of our problems. It is what guarantees we will never have the unity to prevent this constant slide downward. The company knows it and uses that to their advantage.

[RFN]

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[Rockie]

See that's the kind of failure of imagination that I've talked about so much. Step onto the escalator at the bottom, step off at the top and don't bother thinking about anything in between.

Too many people are incapable of thinking outside those parameters and that's why we lose.

We're a bunch of lemmings.

[Thirteentennorth]

See that's the kind of failure of imagination that I've talked about so much. Step onto the escalator at the bottom, step off at the top and don't bother thinking about anything in between.

Too many people are incapable of thinking outside those parameters and that's why we lose.

We're a bunch of lemmings.

OK Rockie, how do you specifically propose to counter this "failure of imagination?" What alternative to the seniority system, that exists in almost every company, would you propose? Bear in mind that any solution ought not to penalize those who, in good faith, signed on for it when they joined. Even back in the late sixties/early seventies when I was a policeman in Toronto we had a seniority system that determined choice of vacations, etc. So it's not just the airlines. How will eliminating collectively-negotiated mandatory retirement contribute to a better system? I am sure that those who want to fly past 60 will only want to do so WITH their accrued seniority. See what I mean?

If you are advocating a status-pay system, with which I am in agreement BTW, seniority will still influence schedules, vacations, etc. How do you get around it without unjustly penalizing those who have played-by-the-rules all their careers. How do you get around it and solve the problem? This discussion is long on rhetoric and short on specifics. Let's have some specifics, and then take those specifics to AC and ACPA to see if the rules-of-engagement can be changed.

Even now that I am retired, I am faced with the implications of seniority every time I try to get on a flight. As a retiree, I am no longer accruing seniority. Is that fair? Some would say yes, but my selfish self-interest says no. But I accept it and play within the rules. And occasionally buy some seniority, especially ex-BGI, by using C1's [better not get started on THAT!].

Hope all is well with you. That's the view from sunny BGI today!

Cheers,

Iain E.

[Bajan Pilot]

BGI - 3 letters that causes homesickness. How tings skippuh?

[pilotbzh]

It's only a job.... I work for a living. The day I don't have to, I won't... get a life and enjoy....

[Rockie]

OK Rockie, how do you specifically propose to counter this "failure of imagination?" What alternative to the seniority system, that exists in almost every company, would you propose? Bear in mind that any solution ought not to penalize those who, in good faith, signed on for it when they joined.

We don't have to replace the seniority system, but we can change our working conditions to make life fairer for all involved that removes much of the imperitive of moving up that seniority system. Getting rid of formula pay is probably the biggest one that causes 95% of our problems. What it's replaced with does not have to be strictly status pay, but something in between that serves everybodies interests. What that is exactly would have to be hammered out.

Bear in mind though that any change will inevitably benefit some more than others. That is an unavoidable byproduct of change, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't change. The consequences of refusing to adapt and fighting change are much higher as we unfortunately are going to discover.

How will eliminating collectively-negotiated mandatory retirement contribute to a better system?

Collectively negotiated mandatory retirement that forces individuals out of their job against their will is age discrimination. The benefits of eliminating discrimination shouldn't need to be explained, but unfortunately getting Air Canada pilots to recognize it as such in the first place is proving to be impossible. Hence the CHRT complaints and subsequent legal actions.

I suspect if it weren't for the self imposed "escalator" that we're living with the people would be a lot more open-minded about it. But alas our own interests far outweight a little thing like discrimination, at least until we're the ones being discriminated against. If people don't think that statement applies to them, why are there now close to 200 complainants with more being added every month?

[RFN]

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[Rockie]

The answer to your last question is greed.

Correct, but what you fail to consider is that the greed exists on both sides of the fence. Young pilots become old pilots...they are us in few years so we should take a good long look in the mirror before labelling anybody. We should also not try and stop what cannot be stopped because we think they're more greedy than we are. It will make no difference in the end except to hurt everyone.

[DLurker]

Rockie... Now you guys are getting somewhere, I hope people keep the ideas coming and evolving the discussion. This is the only way that you people may reach a solution that is suitable to
everyone concerned.





This is a follow up to my previous post.

First let me say I'am not a pilot and have no vested interest except curiosity.
My son is a pilot but not for AC.
I have watched and read both sides of the argument. Very good points on both sides by
some well versed and very intelligent people on both sides of the argument

I would think with all the time and thought put in to this argument by both sides,
by very intelligent people, that you people should be able to come up with a working arrangement
that would work for both sides.

There seems to be far to much time spent arguing who is right and who is wrong, and not enough discussion on how to solve the problem.

The only one winning right now is the Management not the pilots as a whole group.

Only an outsiders view.

[Thirteentennorth]

BGI - 3 letters that causes homesickness. How tings skippuh?

Zat U PJ?

[yycflyguy]

I sorta like the escalator analogy. I would like to improve it by suggesting it is like the high speed walkway at YYZ T1. When those at the end of the walkway see that the end is rapidly approaching their instinct is to take one step backwards for self preservation. Everyone behind them must now take 2 steps back to avoid the bottleneck.

Back on topic. There is a Placement Committee in place but good luck getting a SLOA right now. Short staffed with max DMMs. I did see there are many overseas opportunities for those current on A330, 777, A320 and even some EMJ contracts.

[Bajan Pilot]

Cuh dear man, is de udder Baje...de senior one.

[Rockie]

I sorta like the escalator analogy. I would like to improve it by suggesting it is like the high speed walkway at YYZ T1. When those at the end of the walkway see that the end is rapidly approaching their instinct is to take one step backwards for self preservation.

I prefer the image of a stack of broken and twisted bodies piled up from being flung off the end of the high speed walkway before they were ready.

Back on topic. You're spot on mentioning the many overseas opportunities if a person is so inclined. Not including the Jetstar recruiting that's going on right now of course which would be a mistake. Air Canada finds itself in an awkward position where they would love to get rid of pilots, but alas can't operate an airline without them. Imagine a growing corp of pilots who don't have a pension holding them here and operating under worse working conditions than even their contemporaries within Canada. Air Canada would cease to be a career destination and become a stepping stone to something better with the accompanying turnover of pilots. Do you think Air Canada management is smart enough to know that, or do they even care?

[yycflyguy]

Do you think Air Canada management is smart enough to know that, or do they even care?

That MUST be a rhetorical question.

I think Air Canada ceased to be "the" career destination years ago with the happy growth that Westjet has experienced over the past 10 years. I have mentioned before that I have had multiple friends that held simultaneous job offers from WJ and AC. None of them are at Big Red. More friends that shunned their AC interview for the "C" scale at Cathay or in the Sandbox. I am not convinced that I will finish here either either by choice or through continued degradation that forces me out the door. I won't lose any sleep over it though.