Anti-War Left & Libya

[Mig29]

Just to add on to this thread folks....

I am totally against this kind of war in Libya as it is direct targeting of civilians! Gadhafi's army is US's least urgent target. They are destroying infrastructure over there, civilian life lines, power grids, water systems which affect millions of people, including young children and elderly. How's that going to help US topple Libya's government. They are just creating a mess and allowing other extremist to take over the land over there. It's been done before and as long as there are more 'trouble makers' around the world, US and the western powers will have something to bomb. They don't want PEACE! Peace = no profit!

When NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 99', a sovereign nation with out UN's approval (knowing they would never get it!) all they created was devastation and misery left behind. Kosovo today is a safe-haven for terrorists smuggling drugs, weapons and humans! And the west knows this, but they don't give a damn, as they bombed Yugoslavia for 3 months straight and then just occupied the province to instil a military base, one step closer to Russian. They don't care how civilians life there afterwards, if their land is littered with bombs and uranium enriched shells that they left there. They let those same terrorist run the show in Kosovo today, the same group CIA proclaimed to be on their terrorist list few years before. Just like they did in Afghanistan during Soviet intervention.

It's sad folks, but they are running the show, and we are just the spectators here. Seems that no matter who you vote for they end up being the same or worse ass*oles as the previous guys ......

[AuxBatOn]

I am totally against this kind of war in Libya as it is direct targeting of civilians!They are destroying infrastructure over there, civilian life lines, power grids, water systems which affect millions of people, including young children and elderly.

Source please. You can't just say something as outrageous as this and not provide a CREDIBLE source.

[Mig29]

you want sources that MORE civilians are dying then Gadhafi's army personnel??? Due to collateral damage I should rephrase that.

Just turn on the news man, except try to avoid the brainwashing sources like CNN, NBC or BBC....look beyond the spoon feeding news agencies.

I just say let them deal with their problems on their own - oh but we can't, they got a very lucrative (sweet crude) oil supply over there that French and Italians depend more on the us here in the west.

ps. When NATO bombed Yugoslavia for 3 months, they killed more civilians (as collateral of course) then Serbian army forces and Albanian KLA terrorist killed each other in total.

[Expat]

When our side kills civilians = Collateral damages.
When the bad side kills civilians = Crimes against humanity...

[azimuthaviation]

When our side kills civilians = Collateral damages.
When the bad side kills civilians = Crimes against humanity...

Ok thats easy. What about when things like today happen. The bad guys in the war on terror killed the good guy on from the war of terror who was also a bad guy in the war on drugs (if that war is still going on).

[Expat]

Good one...
First, there is no war on drugs here...
Never been...

The rumor here is that, the guy got killed at a good moment, just when there will be an audit of the Kabul Bank, from which is is alleged to have borrowed more than 100 millions, to buy real estate in Dubai...
People here don't even believe that he was killed. Talibs claimed his assassination, but anyone can make that claim...

Rumors here are that he got assisted out of the country before hell brakes loose here...
The guy just was too smart to die like that...

http://www.suntimes.com/news/6471741-41 ... guard.html

At about 11:30 a.m. Mohammad asked Wali Karzai to speak with him privately and to sign some papers in an adjoining room, the official said. Three shots rang out, according to the official. Wali Karzai’s bodyguards ran into the room and found him on the floor with bullet wounds to his head, hand and leg. The bodyguards shot and killed the assassin.

Strange way to kill...Not here...

This is a set up, if I ever saw one...
Here when people kill, they kill publicly...

Smoke and mirrors...

[AuxBatOn]

you want sources that MORE civilians are dying then Gadhafi's army personnel??? Due to collateral damage I should rephrase that.

Just turn on the news man, except try to avoid the brainwashing sources like CNN, NBC or BBC....look beyond the spoon feeding news agencies.

How about I have a pretty good idea of what is going on over there, simply by the nature of my work? I don't need the news to tell me what's going on.

[Expat]

you want sources that MORE civilians are dying then Gadhafi's army personnel??? Due to collateral damage I should rephrase that.

Just turn on the news man, except try to avoid the brainwashing sources like CNN, NBC or BBC....look beyond the spoon feeding news agencies.

How about I have a pretty good idea of what is going on over there, simply by the nature of my work? I don't need the news to tell me what's going on.

Yes, you watch BBC in the Officers' Mess. Been there, done that. Then security briefings, pre and post-flight briefings...seen it.
Nothing against your work, you are doing professional work, but believe me, nothing beats being on the ground, visiting hospitals and fresh graves... I have seen the receiving end of things, and seen how the liberators can turn to occupiers, in the eyes of people losing family members. I have lost co-workers, killed as a result of anger.
War, any war, is sad...

[AuxBatOn]

the Officers' Mess. Been there, done that. Then security briefings, pre and post-flight briefings...seen it.
Nothing against your work, you are doing professional work, but believe me, nothing beats being on the ground, visiting hospitals and fresh graves... \

Or flying overhead and doing the work.

[Expat]

the Officers' Mess. Been there, done that. Then security briefings, pre and post-flight briefings...seen it.
Nothing against your work, you are doing professional work, but believe me, nothing beats being on the ground, visiting hospitals and fresh graves... \

Or flying overhead and doing the work.

Work???
Funny that france is negotiating the exit of the bad guy...
Then what work???

[Expat]

Aux,
Nothing personal...
Have a safe stay there. Midnight here in Af. Going to bed with the scorpions.
I wish you well.
Cheers,
expat

[azimuthaviation]

Good one...
First, there is no war on drugs here...
Never been...

The rumor here is that, the guy got killed at a good moment, just when there will be an audit of the Kabul Bank, from which is is alleged to have borrowed more than 100 millions, to buy real estate in Dubai...
People here don't even believe that he was killed. Talibs claimed his assassination, but anyone can make that claim...

Rumors here are that he got assisted out of the country before hell brakes loose here...
The guy just was too smart to die like that...

http://www.suntimes.com/news/6471741-41 ... guard.html

At about 11:30 a.m. Mohammad asked Wali Karzai to speak with him privately and to sign some papers in an adjoining room, the official said. Three shots rang out, according to the official. Wali Karzai’s bodyguards ran into the room and found him on the floor with bullet wounds to his head, hand and leg. The bodyguards shot and killed the assassin.

Strange way to kill...Not here...

This is a set up, if I ever saw one...
Here when people kill, they kill publicly...

Smoke and mirrors...

Ohh what a war against the west be without funding by the wests own drug addicts. I remember we had a Christian drug dealer in the south who was killed. The next day Hezbollah listed him as a martyr. No one even knew...

Edit: Well to be fair to drug addicts, a lot of other western appetites and habits also fuel their troubles.

[Dash-Ate]

WAR turning millionaires into billionairs since time began.



The US government spends $10 billion dollars a month, or $120 billion a year, to fight an estimated “50 -75 ‘Al Qaeda types’ in Afghanistan ”, according to the CIA and quoted in the Financial Times of London (6/25 -26/11, p. 5). During the past 30 months of the Obama presidency, Washington has spent $300 billion dollars in Afghanistan , which adds up to $4 billion dollars for each alleged ‘Al Queda type’. If we multiply this by the two dozen or so sites and countries where the White House claims ‘Al Qaeda’ terrorists have been spotted, we begin to understand why the US budget deficit has grown astronomically to over $1.6 trillion for the current fiscal year.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=25574

During Obama’s Presidency, Social Security’s cost-of-living adjustment has been frozen, resulting in a net decrease of over 8 percent, which is exactly the amount spent chasing just 5 dozen ‘Al Qaeda terrorists’ in the mountains bordering Pakistan .



It is absurd to believe that the Pentagon and White House would spend $10 billion a month just to hunt down a handful of terrorists ensconced in the mountains of Afghanistan . So what is the war in Afghanistan about? The answer one most frequently reads and hears is that the war is really against the Taliban, a mass-based Islamic nationalist guerrilla movement with tens of thousands of activists. The Taliban, however, have never engaged in any terrorist act against the territorial United States or its overseas presence. The Taliban have always maintained their fight was for the expulsion of foreign forces occupying Afghanistan . Hence the Taliban is not part of any “international terrorist network”. If the US war in Afghanistan is not about defeating terrorism, then why the massive expenditure of funds and manpower for over a decade?



Several hypotheses come to mind:



The first is the geopolitics of Afghanistan : The US is actively establishing forward military bases, surrounding and bordering on China .



Secondly, US bases in Afghanistan serve as launching pads to foment “dissident separatist” armed ethnic conflicts and apply the tactics of ‘divide and conquer’ against Iran , China , Russia and Central Asian republics.



Thirdly, Washington’s launch of the Afghan war (2001) and the easy initial conquest encouraged the Pentagon to believe that a low cost, easy military victory was at hand, one that could enhance the image of the US as an invincible power, capable of imposing its rule anywhere in the world, unlike the disastrous experience of the USSR.



Fourthly, the early success of the Afghan war was seen as a prelude to the launching of asequence of successful wars, first against Iraq and to be followed by Iran , Syria and beyond. These would serve the triple purpose of enhancing Israeli regional power, controlling strategic oil resources and enlarging the arc of US military bases from South and Central Asia, through the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean .



The strategic policies, formulated by the militarists and Zionists in the Bush and Obama Administrations, assumed that guns, money, force and bribes could build stable satellite states firmly within the orbit of the post-Soviet US empire. Afghanistan was seen as an easy first conquest the initial step to sequential wars. Each victory, it was assumed would undermine domestic and allied (European) opposition. The initial costs of imperial war, the Neo-Cons claimed, would be paid for by wealth extracted from the conquered countries, especially from the oil producing regions.



The rapid US defeat of the Taliban government confirmed the belief of the military strategists that “backward”, lightly armed Islamic peoples were no match up for the US powerhouse and its astute leaders.

[Expat]

Dash,

You got a point. We all know this, that the US External policies are for the good of the American people. many presidents stated so. We all agree on that.
What the US want to do with their budget is their own business. At last count, they had 1077 bases outside the country. I have no problem with that, as there are none in my country.
They can fund them, good for them...

If they can't read history, and understand it, it is their problem. This debate is all over the net now, as a lot of people all over the world see it as the prelude to the end, like it happened to a lot of empires before.
My two cents about this, is let it go...
This is not the end of the world, but merely of an empire...

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Surprise Surprise Expat, you bitch about the Libyan mission as well.

[Dash-Ate]

Greatest "liberating" force in the world? Propaganda.



World’s Worst Humanitarian Crisis in Somalia: U.S. Sends in the Marines and More Drones

By Glen Ford
July 16, 2011 "BAR" -- Even as U.S. militarization of the Horn of Africa has contributed massively to the threatened starvation of millions, the Americans have announced an escalation of drone attacks against Somalia and the establishment of a Marine task force for the region. A United Nations spokesman describes the food and refugee emergency in Somalia as the “worst humanitarian crisis in the world,” with millions at immediate risk. Not coincidentally, the epicenter of the disaster is the area where Somalia, Kenya and Ethiopia meet – which is also a focus of U.S. Special Forces, surveillance and logistics activity.

The Americans blame the al-Shabab resistance for exacerbating the drought emergency, but for at least two years the Americans have used food as a weapon of war in Somalia, in an effort to starve out those who might be supporting the Shabab. The U.S. has armed an array of militias operating near the Ethiopian and Kenyan borders, making normal agricultural pursuits all but impossible, and the current world-class catastrophe, inevitable.

Whenever the U.S. rachets up its armed interventions in Somalia, disaster follows. Four years ago, after the Americans instigated an Ethiopian invasion of Somalia to overthrow an Islamist government that had brought a semblance of peace to the region, it set off what the United Nations then called “the worst humanitarian crisis in Africa – worse than Darfur.” Today, many of those same refugees are confronted with the worst humanitarian crisis on the planet – once again, largely courtesy of the United States.

“The Obama administration has upgraded Somalia and Yemen as hotspots in its endless war-making.”

The original crime – the one from which all the other horrors flow – was the theft of Somalia’s government, and the crushing of its people’s dreams for peace. The American proxy aggression, largely conducted through Ethiopia and now Kenya, and much of it directed from Djibouti, the actual headquarters of the U.S. Africa Command, AFRICOM – is the root cause of the social disintegration of Somalia, which has pushed much of the population to the edge of extinction. These are the crimes against humanity that international courts should be prosecuting. Instead, the International Criminal Court has become a tool of the aggressor, and even proposes to deploy the U.S. military as its deputies, to enforce its warrants: justice turned upside down.

The newly activated Marine task force will augment America’s stepped up drone attacks against the Shabab, an escalation of Obama’s second shooting war in Africa, and war number 6, globally.

In addition to the Marines and the drones, the U.S. recently committed $45 million to equipment and training for the Ugandan and Burundian soldiers that are all that props up the puppet Somali government in Mogadishu, the capital.

The Obama administration has upgraded Somalia and Yemen as hotspots in its endless war-making, claiming al-Qaida operatives in the region are even more dangerous to the U.S. than their counterparts in Afghanistan and Pakistan – which essentially tells us that al-Qaida isn't really all that relevant to why American is spreading war and misery all over the planet. What is clear, is that the world's greatest humanitarian threat lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

[hz2p]

Your "posts have no value".

[Expat]

Surprise Surprise Expat, you bitch about the Libyan mission as well.

I do not bitch, as you say, but merely say that Canada should stand on its own, and stop being a lackey to the US, who do not even know what is good for them...
And bombing Libya is a farce, if I ever saw one...
There is not one positive outcome that comes to mind, but many negatives...
Sometimes, I wonder where some of you guys studied, to come up with these simple arguments, that make the rest of the world think they are smarter than the west.

[azimuthaviation]

They were smart 60 years ago. But then they lost it to consumerism, mass media, arrogance, laziness and commercialism. Now the city scapes of Dubai, Doha, Kuala Lumpur, Seol, Kuwait, Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai are the most modern and developed in the world while London, Paris and Moscow are starting to look like Oklahoma city. Toronto or any Canadian city can go either way, and with the gov we have, the chance to make one of our cities the next Dubai is getting farther and farther away. Bad for us but good for Mumbai or Kuwait or Alexandria, the people who will be taking advantage of the great opportunities that exist that the attitudes of too many people here refuse realise.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Surprise Surprise Expat, you bitch about the Libyan mission as well.

I do not bitch, as you say, but merely say that Canada should stand on its own, and stop being a lackey to the US, who do not even know what is good for them...
And bombing Libya is a farce, if I ever saw one...
There is not one positive outcome that comes to mind, but many negatives...
Sometimes, I wonder where some of you guys studied, to come up with these simple arguments, that make the rest of the world think they are smarter than the west.

Hardly. Conscript Canadians - bring back a sense of nationalism. Switzerland has hit the nail right on the head when it comes to these sorts of matters. I am sure we both can agree that politicians running wars gets us nowhere? Well, lets be honest - the Middle East is fucked up. Bottom line, going after the central threat where MANY of these guys were coming from was not a bad start. Iraq , well that was a dogs breakfast. But honestly, its going to be one at a time. Most Western countries are playing the "we do not want to do what we did for the past 10 years " game. We just want out pre -911 world back! Well, it's not coming back until another enormous sacrifice is made. Sadly, our retarded society believes we are still sliding around on rainbows, dancing with sugar plum fairies, and "peace-keeping". No, we are fighting wars.

Also, Mr. Pig in Libya has committed numerous crimes and is responsible for the suffering of thousands - just like all these others you preach about. Bottom line - what do you people want to see? A world with no War? It's just getting started!

Time to wake up

[Expat]

We should be fighting wars to win!

But we are not:

Bomb explodes as key Afghan city prepares for handover
By Adrian Croft
July 19 - A bomb exploded near a police station outside a crucial city in Afghanistan's south on Tuesday where Afghan forces are readying to assume security responsibility within hours, another worrying sign as insurgents seek to disrupt a gradual transition process. (Reuters)

The roadside bomb hit a police vehicle near a newly built police station in Bolan, just outside the bustling market city of Lashkar Gah.
Lashkar Gah is due to be handed to Afghan forces on Wednesday. It is the most contentious of seven areas on the list for handover this week at the start of the first phase of a transition process that will end with all foreign combat troops leaving Afghanistan by the end of 2014.
Initial reports suggested there were no casualties in the blast, said Kamaluddin Khan, a senior provincial policeman.
Still, it was a worrying sign less than 24 hours before the formal handover from British to Afghan troops. Violence has spiked across Afghanistan in the lead-up to the transition process.
Another relatively peaceful district east of Kabul was being handed over from U.S. forces on Tuesday.
Of the seven areas -- two provinces, three cities and two districts -- to be handed over to Afghan control this week, most are in areas considered relatively safe.
Lashkar Gah, however, will be seen as a critical test of the readiness of Afghan forces to assume control.
As capital of Helmand, one of Afghanistan's most violent provinces, Lashkar Gah is the most unstable of the seven areas, a reality that hit home after Tuesday's blast and the killing of seven policemen near the town the previous day.
POISONED, SHOT
On Monday, seven policemen manning a checkpoint in a small town outside Lashkar Gah were poisoned and then shot dead by a police colleague, the spokesman for Helmand's governor said. The policeman who had also been manning the post then escaped with their weapons and a police vehicle, spokesman Daoud Ahmadi said.
The Taliban initially claimed responsibility but the killings now appear to be the latest in a series of incidents where ``rogue'' Afghan soldiers and policemen have turned their weapons on their Afghan colleagues or foreign mentors.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai's spokesman, Waheed Omer, said on Monday insurgent infiltration in the army and police had become a ``reality''. Omer also warned that efforts to disrupt the transition process and ``disable the government'' had intensified.
In Nad Ali, a district neighbouring Lashkar Gah, two civilians were kidnapped and then killed, the Helmand governor's office said in a statement.
Violence across Afghanistan in 2010 hit its worst levels since the Taliban were overthrown by U.S.-led Afghan forces in 2001, with civilian and military casualties hitting record levels, and this year has followed a similar trend.
A U.N. report this month found the first six months of 2011 had been the deadliest six months for civilians since the war started.
The first of the seven areas to be formally handed over on Sunday was Bamiyan, one of the safest of Afghanistan's 34 provinces and long an anti-Taliban redoubt.
The handover ceremony in Bamiyan, attended by senior Afghan ministers, was conducted in relative secrecy and with minimal media coverage, a reminder of how tense the country remains as violence increases and spreads to once-peaceful areas.
Facing criticism over Sunday's event, the Afghan government scrambled to make amends, with an aircraft from the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force shuttling journalists to Tuesday's ceremony in Mehtar Lam district in eastern Laghman.
Mehtar Lam is another relatively peaceful district about 50 km (30 miles) east of Kabul.

Just another day here...
'night all...

[JakeYYZ]

We should be fighting wars to win!

But we are not:

Elaborate..............define “winning.”
At the end of WWII; what happened to the status of ‘Shinto’ and ‘Nazi’?
I know what my definition of ‘winning’ is, and it’s not post-modern.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

i suppose he wants to see shackled Jihadists marching through the desert - You know, an official surrender, lots of parties, a declaration that the war is over, an ak47 for his younger brother (souvenir) , a victoria cross, maybe get you some diaper head powder ...

[JakeYYZ]

Project much?

[azimuthaviation]

Yeah it makes more sense politically to be "fighting" rather than winning. Can you imagine 10 years after Normandy the Allies still trying to control the French countryside? Or in secret meetings with the Vichy? They dont even talk about winning, their plans include years of s being present in Afghanistan, winning isnt even part of their plans.