T.C shuts part of Skyward down
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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i smell burnt toast
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- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:25 pm
This thread here is not about S&J. This is about the shutdown of Skyward, and its closing down for good.
Unfortunately, this is my 3rd post, and some think that doesn't validate my opinion on here. But tough, her 'tis....
Safety is not about fatalities, or lack there of...it is a mindset...and we should all take it to heart. Now, as an ex-skyward folk...i am guilty myself of quoting that as an argument on safety. What I think should be looked at...is an ongoing trend with the disregard for the rules, and regulations. It sickens me that people continuously bring up the pag accident in shamtown to use as a knock to the green guys/gals. Have you forgotten that there were people in there....and they had families, and friends that are still reading these posts. I did not know any of them, or family of the people involved....but I would hope to hell that if that were to happen, that I would not have to read someone bad mouthing, or using an accident to bash or back up thier views.
Now, I don't like the views of S&J, but thats not to mean that we need to use the crash against him....if you don't like his views, dont' reply.
I think we would all be doing a lot of ppl some good, by simply letting the pilots at skyward deal, and move on....as most of you should do. Everyone here that was at sgk will be fine, and we will move on...so it's time to start a new thread. Sometimes being the talk of the town isn't a good thing...and this is the case here.
Thank you for all that supported us, and well for those that didn't....I sincerely hope that you never have to go through what has happened here, but if it does, that people show you some compassion, and respect.
OUT!
Unfortunately, this is my 3rd post, and some think that doesn't validate my opinion on here. But tough, her 'tis....
Safety is not about fatalities, or lack there of...it is a mindset...and we should all take it to heart. Now, as an ex-skyward folk...i am guilty myself of quoting that as an argument on safety. What I think should be looked at...is an ongoing trend with the disregard for the rules, and regulations. It sickens me that people continuously bring up the pag accident in shamtown to use as a knock to the green guys/gals. Have you forgotten that there were people in there....and they had families, and friends that are still reading these posts. I did not know any of them, or family of the people involved....but I would hope to hell that if that were to happen, that I would not have to read someone bad mouthing, or using an accident to bash or back up thier views.
Now, I don't like the views of S&J, but thats not to mean that we need to use the crash against him....if you don't like his views, dont' reply.
I think we would all be doing a lot of ppl some good, by simply letting the pilots at skyward deal, and move on....as most of you should do. Everyone here that was at sgk will be fine, and we will move on...so it's time to start a new thread. Sometimes being the talk of the town isn't a good thing...and this is the case here.
Thank you for all that supported us, and well for those that didn't....I sincerely hope that you never have to go through what has happened here, but if it does, that people show you some compassion, and respect.
OUT!
I'd like to see the pics.....I heard there were some around.FREEFALL wrote:Hey busted, I have seen great pics of that!!
and busted, not sure if you are trying to stir up shit, but I am not going to be sucked in.
Shit happens.
Wasn't the first time. And not the first company to do it. Go to Airliners.net, lots of pics of bigger planes on their tails.
Quick, call the Sun with your scoop.
So I am not sure what your post is all about, other than to troll.......
Again, if someone has pics, let me know!
"The South will boogie again."
THE GOAT RODEO IS OVER
During my time at Skyward I was amazed on a daily basis at just how brutal and inefficient the management was. Not just for an aviation company but for any company in any business. For 1 : there was generally 3 useless mangement in place where 1 competent manager would have sufficed and would have actually made getting decisions made much easier. Also the token "managers" that were in place for show that drew high salaries despite the fact that there aviation expierence was limited to having flown on an airplane once or twice. (JD in yth a good example) and then impowering these Tokens with decision making authority. This overlapping of managment extended throughout matinence(think of TS in YTH), customer service and in the head office.
Classic example of this was the hiring of a company chaplin after two years of losing money. This kind of as-backward decision making was the norm at Skyward not the exception.
This management "structure" (I use the term loosely) was only made worse by the president hiding behind his "faith" to extend a my sh-t don't stink attitude because i'm buddy buddy with god and i support the brainwashing of indiginous cultures by my religion. Anyone within the company who had dealings with FB know the man to be a arrogant, self serving money obsessed ba-tard. FB pushed and pushed everything particuliarly maintience and having seen this, it was clear that making money was his first priority not safety. (think test flight, who needs a test flight? right frank, as an easy example.
I challenge any Skyward (sorry former skward employee) to refute any of the above, what i've spewed out here is not a slandor or joke, although in opinion Skyward was.
I expect management who read this will write in defense but if they step back and take a good hard look they won't have much to say. To these management types who still can't grasp the reality I say talk to any pilot or non-management and you'll have the truth as I have related it.
During my time at Skyward I was amazed on a daily basis at just how brutal and inefficient the management was. Not just for an aviation company but for any company in any business. For 1 : there was generally 3 useless mangement in place where 1 competent manager would have sufficed and would have actually made getting decisions made much easier. Also the token "managers" that were in place for show that drew high salaries despite the fact that there aviation expierence was limited to having flown on an airplane once or twice. (JD in yth a good example) and then impowering these Tokens with decision making authority. This overlapping of managment extended throughout matinence(think of TS in YTH), customer service and in the head office.
Classic example of this was the hiring of a company chaplin after two years of losing money. This kind of as-backward decision making was the norm at Skyward not the exception.
This management "structure" (I use the term loosely) was only made worse by the president hiding behind his "faith" to extend a my sh-t don't stink attitude because i'm buddy buddy with god and i support the brainwashing of indiginous cultures by my religion. Anyone within the company who had dealings with FB know the man to be a arrogant, self serving money obsessed ba-tard. FB pushed and pushed everything particuliarly maintience and having seen this, it was clear that making money was his first priority not safety. (think test flight, who needs a test flight? right frank, as an easy example.
I challenge any Skyward (sorry former skward employee) to refute any of the above, what i've spewed out here is not a slandor or joke, although in opinion Skyward was.
I expect management who read this will write in defense but if they step back and take a good hard look they won't have much to say. To these management types who still can't grasp the reality I say talk to any pilot or non-management and you'll have the truth as I have related it.
The Law may sleep , but it never dies.
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Pith Helmet
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Hey! You forgot to mention that they scaled back on the employee health benefits first, then hired a Chaplain with the money.Dr evil wrote:Classic example of this was the hiring of a company chaplin after two years of losing money. This kind of as-backward decision making was the norm at Skyward not the exception.
The chief export of Pith Helmet is Pain.
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Corporate Pilot
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:41 pm
- Location: Canada
Just posted in the last few minutes on the Skyward web-site:
April 01, 2005
Dear Friends of Skyward Aviation:
It is with deep regret that we advise that Skyward Aviation, after nearly 18 years of providing an efficient, safe and reliable air service across Manitoba and in particular for northern Manitobans, has been placed in receivership by recent court order.
As of today, April 1, 2005 the airline will completely cease operations and efforts to regain Transport Canada certification. Protection under the [Compa]nies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, which would have provided a period of time for reorganization, was not extended.
It has been the pleasure of the Skyward team to be of service and we appreciate your patience and support during this difficult period. Regrettably, we can no longer provide interim assistance for your aviation needs as our operations in Thompson and Winnipeg are now closed.
The Board of Directors, Management and Employees of Skyward Aviation thank-you for your consideration and dedication to Skyward Aviation and hope that you have valued our service offering equally as we have valued the trust you placed in us.
Best Wishes in your endeavors:
The Skyward Team
April 01, 2005
Dear Friends of Skyward Aviation:
It is with deep regret that we advise that Skyward Aviation, after nearly 18 years of providing an efficient, safe and reliable air service across Manitoba and in particular for northern Manitobans, has been placed in receivership by recent court order.
As of today, April 1, 2005 the airline will completely cease operations and efforts to regain Transport Canada certification. Protection under the [Compa]nies’ Creditors Arrangement Act, which would have provided a period of time for reorganization, was not extended.
It has been the pleasure of the Skyward team to be of service and we appreciate your patience and support during this difficult period. Regrettably, we can no longer provide interim assistance for your aviation needs as our operations in Thompson and Winnipeg are now closed.
The Board of Directors, Management and Employees of Skyward Aviation thank-you for your consideration and dedication to Skyward Aviation and hope that you have valued our service offering equally as we have valued the trust you placed in us.
Best Wishes in your endeavors:
The Skyward Team
The tail-dragger metro
no sig because apparently quoting people in context is offensive to them.
LOL 
Ok, Now its my turn.
I know you'd be lying if you tell us you've never said to your self "self you're the best, you've got AC written all over you, Robbie Milton loves you, just sit it out and you're in, after all, you have an aviation management diploma and 500 hrs."
The problem is is that you've been fed that F.B. SKG bullshit for too long on how the real world is. "we fly lower and slower so we're safer"I hate to say it but the real world is not found at the end of HWY 6. It's not found in the lunch room at college, AVCANADA, by calling someone greenhorn on 126.7 or even at PERIMETER. If any one wants to know what happened in Shammattawa then they should read their A.I.P. ammendments. Any one who's landed at night (not just held a PCC on a plane that has been flown at night) in the north (we're not talking your night circuits here either) will not question what happened. THEY KNOW. It could very well happen to them on their next trip into anywhere. I would love the opportunity to ask Will Grey or Brad Hellum what happened that night but I can't. This my friend, is the real world. They as well as many other friends are gone. If you haven't lost someone to aviation , you will. If you don't forget what happened to them or anyone else for that matter maybe you'll make it home tomorrow. Everybody screws up, hopefully it doesn't cost the ultimate price. Cheap shots are just that. Everyone including myself feels bad for what happened in Thompson and given the oportunity I feel more than qualified to match wits with you if you want to go down that road. While our hearts go out to those affected we keep our opinions of what went wrong off of public mediums. After all, why put salt in the wounds. I have been around long enough to learn that those in glass houses should not throw stones. The company I am fortunate enough to work for is still in business. Jetsgo and Skyward are not. I haven't been around for that long but I have seen both sides of the spectrum as far as fortune goes in this industry. I also can count on two hands and both feet a number of incidents involving ALL of the Manitoba operators some fatal, some not. It's ironic that over half of those involve 1 company, although not fatal they seem to have contributed to the end result... I believe we all know what the topic of this thread is.
giligan
PS, Before you let your feelings post your next reply, re-read my post, twice. Then read it again, it's the truth. If you worked for Skyward, I wish you luck. I hope for your sake the next time you fuk up, and you will that I'm not there to tell you I saw it coming. Have a good day.
I know you'd be lying if you tell us you've never said to your self "self you're the best, you've got AC written all over you, Robbie Milton loves you, just sit it out and you're in, after all, you have an aviation management diploma and 500 hrs."
The problem is is that you've been fed that F.B. SKG bullshit for too long on how the real world is. "we fly lower and slower so we're safer"I hate to say it but the real world is not found at the end of HWY 6. It's not found in the lunch room at college, AVCANADA, by calling someone greenhorn on 126.7 or even at PERIMETER. If any one wants to know what happened in Shammattawa then they should read their A.I.P. ammendments. Any one who's landed at night (not just held a PCC on a plane that has been flown at night) in the north (we're not talking your night circuits here either) will not question what happened. THEY KNOW. It could very well happen to them on their next trip into anywhere. I would love the opportunity to ask Will Grey or Brad Hellum what happened that night but I can't. This my friend, is the real world. They as well as many other friends are gone. If you haven't lost someone to aviation , you will. If you don't forget what happened to them or anyone else for that matter maybe you'll make it home tomorrow. Everybody screws up, hopefully it doesn't cost the ultimate price. Cheap shots are just that. Everyone including myself feels bad for what happened in Thompson and given the oportunity I feel more than qualified to match wits with you if you want to go down that road. While our hearts go out to those affected we keep our opinions of what went wrong off of public mediums. After all, why put salt in the wounds. I have been around long enough to learn that those in glass houses should not throw stones. The company I am fortunate enough to work for is still in business. Jetsgo and Skyward are not. I haven't been around for that long but I have seen both sides of the spectrum as far as fortune goes in this industry. I also can count on two hands and both feet a number of incidents involving ALL of the Manitoba operators some fatal, some not. It's ironic that over half of those involve 1 company, although not fatal they seem to have contributed to the end result... I believe we all know what the topic of this thread is.
giligan
PS, Before you let your feelings post your next reply, re-read my post, twice. Then read it again, it's the truth. If you worked for Skyward, I wish you luck. I hope for your sake the next time you fuk up, and you will that I'm not there to tell you I saw it coming. Have a good day.
Last edited by giligan on Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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highlander
- Rank 4
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- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:53 pm
I have to agree that it is not correct to say "well that airline killed so and so, they are unsafe." There are too many things to consider.
In the case of the Shamattawa incident in question, it could happen to anyone under a variety of circumstances. This incident does not necessarily mean an airline is unsafe. However, in the public's eye, and keep in mind the general public is often very opinionated or easily persuaded, they might see this as unsafe. For example, due to pilot error, keystone crashed on a busy street. For the longest time people would not fly with Keystone. Why? This acccident from early on was pilot error. Again, it's public perception.
The problem with TC's kate fletcher is she cites the airline as being unsafe and mentions some for general things. Operational Control, Training and Maintenance. These are very broad things and basically lets everyone who isn't in the loop use their imagination. These statements don't say very much. Maybe they were related to one specific instance? What I do know is that when they tried to fix things they had new management in place. FB stepped down. And there was no chaplain.......I had to get that in.
In the case of the Shamattawa incident in question, it could happen to anyone under a variety of circumstances. This incident does not necessarily mean an airline is unsafe. However, in the public's eye, and keep in mind the general public is often very opinionated or easily persuaded, they might see this as unsafe. For example, due to pilot error, keystone crashed on a busy street. For the longest time people would not fly with Keystone. Why? This acccident from early on was pilot error. Again, it's public perception.
The problem with TC's kate fletcher is she cites the airline as being unsafe and mentions some for general things. Operational Control, Training and Maintenance. These are very broad things and basically lets everyone who isn't in the loop use their imagination. These statements don't say very much. Maybe they were related to one specific instance? What I do know is that when they tried to fix things they had new management in place. FB stepped down. And there was no chaplain.......I had to get that in.
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insaininDbrain
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- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:24 pm
i have to say sorry to a couple of pilots that were involved in one of my previos posts and the way words were said were taken in an improper manner, you know who you are and i say i'm sorry. to all the other skyward piots i hope the best to all and i hope to see you in the future on bigger and better things. cheers
insain
insain
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salsa dancer
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:41 pm
Well how long before TS will have his own medevac plane in Cross Lake?? wonder who will finance that -FB--or maybe GP will call some people over for a prayer session in his new several hundred thousand dollar(million) cabin in Lac Du Bonnet--bet that isn't in his name--or when he will go to some southern 3rd world country and stay in a $3,000.00 night hotel--if I sound resigned--I am--to be told by a Skyward employee last Wednesday Frank assured them they would get their vacation pay, severance pay and pay in lieu-only to be told on Friday by the company in charge of the receivership--fancy word for bankrupt-this wouldn't happen and maybe employees should look at a class action suit. Hear someone had saved holidays for 2 years plus to take a trip to Europe in May-not to even be told sorry or acknowledged--while if you are in the circle of the Monday afternoon prayer sessions at the church you are okay-no wonder some Skyward employees are mad, bitter-my heart goes out to them as well as the smaller vendors who got caught in the promises of tomorrow we will pay-I thought much better of these people-so you live and learn--but where in the bible does it say-take advantage of peopl-use them, abuse them and cast them aside--not in my bible--but then I study the whole book and not what suits me--
Wow you sure are singing a different tune now....whats with the change of heart??salsa dancer wrote:Hats off to all who tried to hold everything together in the final days at Skyward Aviation.
The biggest question I have is "how did a company go nine weeks and still not have a plane ready to present to TC?
Maybe, just maybe--there is some thought by the owners to try and set up something out of YWG--under new colors and a new name-with a few of their former employees-big mistake others will be watching to see if this happens
Heard this morning employees will receive their final payroll checks, but no time in lieu, no vacation and no severance--some of the people that fought hard and strong to help the Skyward family come out of this are the same people who will not see any of their extra monies--so in the end they are the ones who got kicked anyway--so in the end the people who tried to help Skyward the most ended up the worst off for trying. Well again to the true Skyward Family-good luck and god bless and when all is said and done Frank& Cheryl, Gord & Helen, Kurt & Inge are the ones who at this point seem to have lost the most--but lets just wait and see.
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salsa dancer
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170 to xray
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First of all. To everyone I have offended that was not my intetion. I have lost friends to accidents. They were good people and good pilots. I have absolutely nothing against Perimeter or any of the people that work there.
I took exception to S&J making a statement along the lines of
"..if he was such a good pilot then why is he so fuking dead.."
I just can't believe anyone even S&J could actually feel that way. I wanted him to apply his logic to a coworker and a friend. I was hoping he might just see how callous and offensive HIS remarks were.
The secenarios were ones that I know I was faced with and have nothing to do with the tragic accident in Sham. My point was this.
You depart Gods and remain VFR(below 500 feet). You have ifr fuel, an ifr airplane and are rated and current. If things get bad you climb go IFR to YTH and try again later. You are familiar with the area and know there's a tower between the two. Your ops manual doesn't allow that. You might be safe but you're not legal.
Next guy leaves Gods he's vfr with vfr fuel in a vfr airplane not certified for known ice, cause he's going vfr right? He has to stay low and is very limited in his options. His ops manaul says he can operate below 500 feet in vfr so he is legal.
LEGAL DOES NOT EQUAL SAFE, SAFE DOES NOT EQUAL LEGAL
Anyways sorry to those who were offended.
I took exception to S&J making a statement along the lines of
"..if he was such a good pilot then why is he so fuking dead.." I just can't believe anyone even S&J could actually feel that way. I wanted him to apply his logic to a coworker and a friend. I was hoping he might just see how callous and offensive HIS remarks were.
The secenarios were ones that I know I was faced with and have nothing to do with the tragic accident in Sham. My point was this.
You depart Gods and remain VFR(below 500 feet). You have ifr fuel, an ifr airplane and are rated and current. If things get bad you climb go IFR to YTH and try again later. You are familiar with the area and know there's a tower between the two. Your ops manual doesn't allow that. You might be safe but you're not legal.
Next guy leaves Gods he's vfr with vfr fuel in a vfr airplane not certified for known ice, cause he's going vfr right? He has to stay low and is very limited in his options. His ops manaul says he can operate below 500 feet in vfr so he is legal.
LEGAL DOES NOT EQUAL SAFE, SAFE DOES NOT EQUAL LEGAL
Anyways sorry to those who were offended.
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The Old Fogducker
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1784
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:13 pm
170:
Interesting post which reminded me of my time working in Vancouver at Harrison Airways. The school CFI was a man for which I held immense respect .... WW2 Spitfire pilot, all-round fabulous guy and listening to his recollections for hours was a real treat.
One day he mentioned that a number of years before, his best friend had been killed in the mountains somewhere because he had flown into rising terrain trying to remain VFR. They had been close for a long time and had flown together through many experiences both military and a long civilian careers.
At one point he said " ...... was a terrible pilot."
From my vantage point of the time, I was horrified to hear him say this. I just couldn't believe he would so heartlessly and callously "speak ill of the dead" in that manner, particularly such a close buddy.
I expressed those feelings to him and his answer has stuck with me. Over time, I've come to share this view after a few decades of reflection.
He said "Good pilots don't kill themselves."
He went on to add this did not refer to pilots that had been failed by the system .... ie: a wing falls off in flight, an elevator cable gets jammed or something equally as catastrophic.
The CFI? Retired at age 65 and lived happily ever after. They are the best kind of pilots.
Yours in contemplation, I remain ... your humble servant,
The Old Fogducker[/b]
Interesting post which reminded me of my time working in Vancouver at Harrison Airways. The school CFI was a man for which I held immense respect .... WW2 Spitfire pilot, all-round fabulous guy and listening to his recollections for hours was a real treat.
One day he mentioned that a number of years before, his best friend had been killed in the mountains somewhere because he had flown into rising terrain trying to remain VFR. They had been close for a long time and had flown together through many experiences both military and a long civilian careers.
At one point he said " ...... was a terrible pilot."
From my vantage point of the time, I was horrified to hear him say this. I just couldn't believe he would so heartlessly and callously "speak ill of the dead" in that manner, particularly such a close buddy.
I expressed those feelings to him and his answer has stuck with me. Over time, I've come to share this view after a few decades of reflection.
He said "Good pilots don't kill themselves."
He went on to add this did not refer to pilots that had been failed by the system .... ie: a wing falls off in flight, an elevator cable gets jammed or something equally as catastrophic.
The CFI? Retired at age 65 and lived happily ever after. They are the best kind of pilots.
Yours in contemplation, I remain ... your humble servant,
The Old Fogducker[/b]
Last edited by The Old Fogducker on Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Check Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am
S and J
You are a competent pilot if only YOU want to be. Obviously you are a competent pilot. You always pass by even the most competent check pilot,- won't you?
I like your attitude. Regardless of the SOP's you are still the Captain, the master of the ship.
Day to day you will handle trips and miles to your own satisfaaction.
Some stuff may come your way soon, but emember, yuu are still the Pilot-in-Command.
You are a competent pilot if only YOU want to be. Obviously you are a competent pilot. You always pass by even the most competent check pilot,- won't you?
I like your attitude. Regardless of the SOP's you are still the Captain, the master of the ship.
Day to day you will handle trips and miles to your own satisfaaction.
Some stuff may come your way soon, but emember, yuu are still the Pilot-in-Command.
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highlander
- Rank 4
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- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:53 pm
Still going strong!!! -
salsa dancer
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:41 pm
Number of employees laid off at Skyward is 270 or pretty close to that--there were somewhere near 95 pilots-35 AME'S/AME APP. Maint Management had 6/7 managers including QC----Nurses were 12 Paramedics 9--these are pretty close to exact--very top heavy in management---example CEO,CEO Assistant, CEO Admin Assistant, VP of Corp Affairs--=5 plus 2 more owners
Customer Service-1Manager, 1Supervisor, several clerks
Reservations 1 Supervisor, 4 FT &2PT clerks
Accounting 1 Manager/Controller, at one time 1 AR Supervisor 4 clerks, AP 2 clerks & 1 person helping, payroll 1 person.
Cargo 1 Manager for such a high volume
Human Resources 1 person
Then the outlying communities, Winnipeg
These numbers are pretty close---just from what I know of the Company
Customer Service-1Manager, 1Supervisor, several clerks
Reservations 1 Supervisor, 4 FT &2PT clerks
Accounting 1 Manager/Controller, at one time 1 AR Supervisor 4 clerks, AP 2 clerks & 1 person helping, payroll 1 person.
Cargo 1 Manager for such a high volume
Human Resources 1 person
Then the outlying communities, Winnipeg
These numbers are pretty close---just from what I know of the Company
