VFR climb VS Broken ceeling

[andy_mtl]

Good day folks,


I have a question and hope to get this clear .

I found my self debating at work on wether it is possible to conduct a climb on a VFR A/C and VFR flight plan thru a declared broken ceeling.

Now, i understand that a 5/8 ceeling still gives you plenty of visibility ont he ground, but , when it comes up to a 6/8 and more well it s hard to say...

I got replied that as long as you see the ground it is ok, but i dont see it that way.

So i was wondering if someone could share some experience on this.

Many thanks,

Andy

[AuxBatOn]

As long as you can maintain VFR (1mile horizontal from cloud, 500' below cloud) 1000' above ground. you should be good to go... It could be a ceiling localized to one side of the airport, leaving the other side wide open.

[andy_mtl]

And that is ok, but, once you are on top of a broken ceeling, are you allowed to conduct a VFR Flight? Not VFT OTT, just plain and simple VFR.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Andy:

I think the question really should be "Can I get down through the cloud safely and legally when I want to (or need to)".

As AuxBatOn mentioned above, the rule about one mile from the clouds, etc. governs whether or not you can legally go up, but my concern (if it was me flying) would be whether or not I could safely come down later on - not just at the planned destination, but at any intermediate point if an unexpected event required me to descend.

Michael

[SAR_YQQ]

And that is ok, but, once you are on top of a broken ceeling

Can you see the ground?

[andy_mtl]

@ paneuropean
It is a skydiving operation....


and you do see teh ground , but patchy

[AEROBAT]

If you think it is a "ceiling" then you shouldn't be climbing through it. I think I understand what you are asking...whether or not it is safe to climb through it. It is impossible to answer that over the internet. If you feel uncomfortable doing something it is a good chance that you are doing something wrong.

You could get in trouble with TC if you ended up having to divert and ask for help to get down. If you feel it is less than 5/8th cloud file a PIREP and say so.

[andy_mtl]

That s my point, i did not go up for that reson, a flying hour isnt worth loosing your license.

it s just that sometimes other pilots tell you its ok, but you dont feel that it is ok so.....

[AEROBAT]

I thought we were not allowed to drop jumpers through the clouds anymore?

[andy_mtl]

Well you are not allowed, but again if they see the ground.....

thats y i am tryign to see about the Broken ceeling issue, so i know what i can do and it is perfectly legal to do.

[PanEuropean]

...it's just that sometimes other pilots tell you its ok, but you dont feel that it is ok so.....

Hi again Andy:

Ah, you are a wise person to have said what you wrote above. In general, if you don't feel good doing something, don't do it - even if it is legal. What 'the other pilots say' can generally be disregarded, unless it is a person you have a lot of respect for.

Michael

[andy_mtl]

Thanks Michael.

I will keep it in mind!

[aurora]

just tell center/traffic/radio/tower/etc that you have ground contact if they ask, then its no problem
I always have ground contact for some reason, must be lucky I guess

[andy_mtl]

ground contact is something, but climbing thru clouds that are 1000 or 2000 feet tall and staying clear of them, can be tricky with a small single engine at its max wieght.

[square]

No it's not legal.

[PanEuropean]

...climbing thru clouds that are 1000 or 2000 feet tall and staying clear of them, can be tricky with a small single engine at its max wieght.

A very good point, and something I had not even considered. The only plane I fly is sort of a '4 wheel drive truck' kind of plane, and I can count on it to give me 1,600 FPM at gross weight. I had not even considered that the smaller single-engine piston aircraft can have very limited climb capabilities when fully loaded... which means that something that might be both safe and legal to do in a higher-performance plane might be kind of unsafe (even if it is still legal) in a lower performance plane.

Not to mention that the climb suffers when the aircraft is getting bounced around between the clouds.

Michael

[TG]

It is a skydiving operation....

That's the problem doing all jump runs with a GPS. Leaving you playing with broken, up to overcast ceiling.
If you get pressure doing so, ask them if they are still willing to go without the magic box, doing the spotting all alone.
This will put them back into perspective..


In resume it's as AuxBatOn said...




Can't spell.

[snoopy]

I used to drop skydivers from 10,000 under CAA rules (UK Caribbean). There were strict rules about dropping skydivers in any kind of cloud cover more dense than few/scattered. Even if it were legal, you cannot protect your jumpers from passing aircraft who may be "cloud surfing" and oblivious to an active drop zone. Part of the pilot's job is to ensure the area is clear prior to giving the release to jump - you can't adequately do that if significant cloud cover is present. I used to spiral down around my divers ( keeping safe distance of course) and keep a lookout for other aircraft while they were on the way down. You were wise in your decision and kudo's to you for raising the subject here on the forums.

The point Michael raises about being to descend VFR at any point should the unexpected happen (ie engine quits) is a very valid one, particularly when one considers that upon engine failure the angle of glide will be chosen by the aircraft (best glide) and no longer by the pilot - thus avoiding cloud may not be possible. Flying in cloud for those not experienced in doing so can be very disorienting, and even more so under the stress of an emergency situation. Food for thought!

Stay safe!
Kirsten B.

[andy_mtl]

I hope this can help other Junior piltos such as my self to figure out the right thing to do and develop an appropriate decision making skill that preserve safety, legal requirements yet remain fair to the company you work for.

[aurora]

The simple answer I try and tell all the less experienced guys is no matter what you are doing, legal or not, if you aren't comfortable doing it, then don't do it. I myself am comfortable flying IMC in a light single and climbing and descending through stratus type clouds as long as I've got an airplane and instruments I trust. A shitbox with questionable flying characteristics, instruments, and engine I won't take out in marginal VFR. Shit happens when you're out in the bush and its not always possible or safe to push and maintain VMC or ground contact. Often times, especially night flying in the winter, you won't even know that you have entered clouds and using those instrument skills you should have learned in school and practised every flight since become very useful tools to have.
Without a solid preflight plan, airplane, plan B, and a bit of granny gas u shouldn't be heading out on any flight, let alone one that involves MVFR, IMC, or OTT. Why you would consider dropping skydivers while OTT is beyond me, doesn't seem to be any reason why they can't wait for weather. If the pilot doesn't want to go flying b/c the weather is poor, then why would the passenger?? LOL, doesn't make much sense does it?

[andy_mtl]

dropping jumpers OTT is not legal and i have never done it, however they do push for it quite a bit.
why? that i do not know...

[aurora]

nvm misread another post