Real Life IFR Exposure

[FL_CH]

Gents,

I'm doing my IFR Rating at one of the schools in Toronto.

I understand that I'm getting training from people who have no real life operational IFR experience whatsoever, and honestly, I'm concerned. I can't change the way FTU industry is, and switching to a different instructor won't do anything (I did not see a better instructor at the FTU).

I am looking to have some exposure to real life IFR before I go out in the world and look for my first job. Is there a way to get a ride on a charter/med-evac flight? I'm a sensible and respectful human being and will keep my hands off the controls and pen off the logbook of course.

If anyone can push me in the right direction, or have any other ideas how to get a taste of the real operations, I would greatly appreciate it.

[lownslow]

I understand that I'm getting training from people who have no real life operational IFR experience whatsoever, and honestly, I'm concerned.

Good concern. Funny how the blind lead the blind and some days I look back on the instructing I used to do and feel sorry for my students.

I am looking to have some exposure to real life IFR before I go out in the world and look for my first job. Is there a way to get a ride on a charter/med-evac flight?

Good idea. I might suggest, though, that any kind of revenue generating flight may not have a seat available. What I did when the ink was fresh on my IFR and I was doing non-IFR stuff in aviation was to offer up my services as a second set of eyes for private owners. A lot of those guys would appreciate someone to keep a traffic watch or dig out maps and approach plates and it gives you an opportunity to ask questions as they come up. Some people will almost certainly want to crap on me for what I've just said but I look at it as studying. Nobody ever paid me to study. Of course, if you're going to go this route, find out if the pilot you're looking to fly with has a reputation. Safety is important and hardcore IFR flying is very unforgiving.

If anyone can push me in the right direction, or have any other ideas how to get a taste of the real operations, I would greatly appreciate it.

One thing that might surprise you is that 'real' IFR is a whole lot easier than the practice stuff you've been doing. Come to think of it, my IFR training probably condensed the equivalent of years worth of IMC-type experiences into a couple months. The rest of the time it's really just more VFR radio nav cross countries.

Oh yeah, one last thing you can do is next time you're wearing your Foggles or Jepp shades or whatever, find anywhere that the outside world is visible and cover it. I find the bottom corner of the side window where it meets the instrument panel often gives you a little reassuring peek at the world. Cover that, it will make you second guess the instruments which is what you'll have to get over to be truly proficient at flying in IMC.

LnS.

[Dagwood]

Is there a way to get a ride on a charter/med-evac flight?

Sorry buddy, but I'm pretty sure that is out of the question. There was a thread on here a while ago with the same question, and despite good intentions, it just isn't feasible.

I am looking to have some exposure to real life IFR

Why? Like the previous poster said... Most flights are VMC and GPS direct on autopilot. Yeah, fun. I don't know what the benefit of riding along for that is (other than big-airplane-is-so-cool factor).

One thing you can do to practice instrument flying is find a buddy and go night flying. Go far away from Toronto so you don't see any lights. Make sure you can not distinguish the horizon so you can't "cheat". Practice climbs, turns, holds, respect your altitudes, monitor your airspeed. Give yourself tight tolerances: 20 feet on the altitude, 2 knots of airspeed, and 1 degree on the heading. To fly that well, you can be sure you'll need more pilot skill than a typical "real IFR" flight.

Btw, here's that thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68633&p=648402

[photofly]

If you want to sit right-seat while I extend my personal IMC comfort zone (which is not very advanced at present) you're welcome to. I fly out of CYTZ.

[PanEuropean]

I am looking to have some exposure to real life IFR before I go out in the world and look for my first job...

Some thoughts for you that might help:

1) Perhaps try waiting until you have a day where the weather at your flight school is kind of ratty - meaning, not good enough to allow student solo work outside of the circuit, but not so bad that it is at minima (+500 feet ceiling above minima and +1 mile vis above minima would be just great), then; rent one of the training aircraft and file for an IFR flight to another airport about 45 minutes away. Ensure that you have at least half an hour of cruise flight, otherwise, things will be too rushed. That is a great way to get real-life experience flying in cloud without 'jumping into the deep end'.

2) As was suggested earlier by another forum member, rent your training aircraft at night (VFR weather this time), and take a buddy along as a safety pilot. Then file for a similar route as above, and try not to look out the front window. Night cross-country is about as close to IMC as you can get (presuming you are over a reasonably unpopulated area), and if you fly a full procedure approach at each end, you will gain both confidence and experience.

You might also want to consider that your first job might be as a copilot in a two-crew operation. If this is the case, you will be able to get a good introduction to IMC there - just tell the Captain that you have relatively little actual IMC time. I'm pretty sure that the Captain will be happy to let you take things at your own pace.

Finally - actual aircraft are really poor learning environments. If your flight training unit has a simulator (doesn't need to be motion or anything), fly some short "cross-country" flights in the simulator, without ever pausing it or freezing it - that will give you some really good practice. The actual operation of the aircraft when you can't see out the window is not very difficult, as you have probably already discovered... what is difficult is learning how to organize yourself and remain spatially oriented during the departure and the approach. Any form of simulator or FTD can be used to practice organization.

Way back when I got my instrument rating (middle of the Stone Age), newbies often got what was called a "Class II" rating - it basically meant that you could fly IMC enroute, but needed about +500 and +1 mile greater than minima to shoot an approach. Kind of a learner's permit, so to speak. I still remember the first time I filed IFR and actually flew into a cloud - I think I held my breath until I turned purple once I went into that cloud... That was a long time ago.

Michael

[FL_CH]

Thanks for the responses!

I'll be pressing my instructor to file IFR next time we go.

Why? Like the previous poster said... Most flights are VMC and GPS direct on autopilot. Yeah, fun. I don't know what the benefit of riding along for that is (other than big-airplane-is-so-cool factor).

To find out what it is like. Maybe it is, in fact, easier than the flight test and I'm over-thinking it. It's just that I've never really been on a general-aviation IFR flight. I know how things are done on Airbus and Boeing, but not on a Navajo or a King Air. I'm more interested in seeing the flow, procedures, and the pace at which things are done. I know the theory, and practice all the maneuvers in the simulator continuously.

Perhaps try waiting until you have a day where the weather at your flight school is kind of ratty

I fly out of an uncontrolled airport with no published IFR approaches. If it ain't VFR, we ain't going...

[trey kule]

I fly out of an uncontrolled airport with no published IFR approaches. If it ain't VFR, we ain't going...

I am going to go out on a limb here, but I think that maybe , just maybe, your plane will take you to an airport with a published approach and actual IFR conditions. Call me crazy, but planes can actually fly more than 25 miles from their home base. go at night. File IFR, and go to one of those airports..Is the x-country IFR not part of the requirements anymore? It is much more about procedures and learning to relax than about all the training scenarios.
And maybe give some thought to turning off the GPS and using VOR's for navigation..I know,I know, How the heck do they work with no magenta lines on them.. But they do work, and it is not a bad idea to learn how to think a bit rather than blindly follow a path.

Enjoy. Ifr is nowhere near as hard as some instructors make it out to be..but then most of them have never really flown IFR.

[costermonger]

I think you're better served by gaining comfort with the IFR system itself than worrying too much about what you're missing by not riding along on a King Air or a Navajo.

Best way to get used to "real" IFR is to file and go places. If you're starting the flight in Toronto, there are lots of options. Plan a flight to point A, accept what's offered or request what makes sense if the goal is to get the aircraft on the ground as efficiently as possible (which it usually is when you're not training). Once on the ground, pick up clearance to point B, repeat. Fly a visual approach once. File direct. File preferred routing. File IFR to an airport without an approach. Your comfort level with the process and the way it all interconnects will be greatly influenced after just a couple flights where the mission is "get to ABC" rather than "shoot 4 approaches". Point to point transportation is what this whole system is for. You don't have to be flying the plane and paying all the bills to benefit from this stuff either; riding in the back with a pad of paper and a set of charts is worthwhile too.

All that said, you have to walk before you run. None of the above is of any use until you know how to conduct all the individual components of the flight. The purpose is to string them together in a realistic way.

[PanEuropean]

I fly out of an uncontrolled airport with no published IFR approaches. If it ain't VFR, we ain't going...

FL_CH:

That, by itself, should not be any problem at all to you. For example, yesterday I flew a twin turboprop from Guayaquil Equador to an airport in the suburbs of Lima, Peru that had no published instrument approaches. The weather at Lima was scuzzy - about 1,500 overcast. So, I did the instrument approach to the main Lima airport (the international airport), and once I was below the clouds and more or less at circuit height, I continued on VFR to the destination airport that was about 10 miles away. Sort of a super-size circling approach, so to speak. Heck, that was far more challenging, interesting, and thought-provoking (so far as 'thinking and acting within the ATC system' goes) than flying an ILS down to minima at the Lima international airport would have been.

A common theme that I see in the responses from other forum participants is this: We are all trying to say that the 'practice' that you now need to enable you to become comfortable and confident flying IFR in IMC is not 'specific task' practice (shooting an ILS, flying a SID or a STAR, doing a hold), instead; it's 'stringing it all together in real time' practice. In other words, you don't need a really horrid day with weather 50 feet above minima, and you don't even need an instrument approach at your final destination airport, provided you can do an approach at a nearby airport that gets you down to a VFR environment and allows you to safely continue on to your ultimate destination (home, the airport with no IFR approachs).

You also don't need a super-fast or snazzy aircraft (such as a turboprop or a fast twin). The very best practice I ever got just after I obtained my instrument rating (back in the 1970s) was when a friend of mine loaned me his Cessna 150 (fully equipped with an alternate static source, needle, ball, and airspeed) and I filed some IFR flight plans between Buttonville and Oshawa. That Cessna 150 flew about as fast as my organizational skills could keep up with, and it didn't matter that the weather was VFR most of the time at both the origin and destination airports. The point was that it allowed me to file IFR flight plans - and therefore got me into the ATC system as an active participant - and that active participation in the ATC system gave me the chance to figure out how things worked, and to learn how to anticipate requests that would be made of me, how to organize, how to plan ahead, and of course, how to recover gracefully from the numerous in-flight errors I made when I was a newbie.

Honest to goodness, you don't want or need a fast or fancy airplane at this stage of your learning. Go find the simplest, least expensive aircraft that has the equipment required to allow you to participate in the IFR environment, and start out by flying IFR (not necessarily IMC, although that certainly adds a bit of authenticity) from 'A to B' between a couple of airports that are not too busy. Enjoy the coffee at each end of the flight, and as you gain confidence, perhaps try flying into airports that are slightly more busy, or flying in weather that is progressively cloudier.

Michael

[Cat Driver]

Honest to goodness, you don't want or need a fast or fancy airplane at this stage of your learning. Go find the simplest, least expensive aircraft that has the equipment required to allow you to participate in the IFR environment, and start out by flying IFR (not necessarily IMC, although that certainly adds a bit of authenticity) from 'A to B' between a couple of airports that are not too busy. Enjoy the coffee at each end of the flight, and as you gain confidence, perhaps try flying into airports that are slightly more busy, or flying in weather that is progressively cloudier.

Michael

The above is the answer that all new pilots should understand and follow.

Like you Michael I received my instrument training in an era when things were far less complicated ( except we had to be able to read morse code. )

I wonder why they decided to scrap the Class 11 instrument rating and the Senior Commercial license?

[iflyforpie]

Like you Michael I received my instrument training in an era when things were far less complicated ( except we had to be able to read morse code. )

Did you ever fall asleep with DAH DIT.... DAH DIT.... DAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH.... DIT DAH...DIT DAH.... DIT DAH.... DAAAAAAAAHHH stuck in your head?


I got to jumpseat back in my KFC days but I didn't really get exposure to 'hard IFR' any time I went flying. It was just like a jaunt across the rocks in a 172 only a bit higher and three times as fast.

[Cat Driver]

Did you ever fall asleep with DAH DIT.... DAH DIT.... DAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH.... DIT DAH...DIT DAH.... DIT DAH.... DAAAAAAAAHHH stuck in your head?

No, the sounds that excite me are far different from morse code.

Actually when flying the twilight zone of the old Radio Range legs any change in the sound was sort of like hearing a rumble strip on the highway when driving.

You did not actually listen to an A or N signal you were just aware of any change in the signal.

If the background hum faded and a clear A or N was heard it alerted you to a change in your position in relation to the range leg.....same thing if a steady hum was heard with no A or N signal.

To put it in a more simple term if the moaning stops you should be aware you are drifting off your intended track.

[Big Pistons Forever]

"Real" IFR flying involves a takeoff, flying a departure procedure, a cruise segment flown in the GPS flight plan mode, that will be either GPS direct or a mixture of GPS direct and some airway segments (flown on the much more accurate GPS), an arrival procedure and ending most probably in a visual, ILS or GPS LNAV approach.

Nowhere in this flight will be "FTU flight training to get ready for the IFR flight test" staples, like

-Anything to do with actually using the ADF, other than as a back up check, or as an aid to situational awareness
-Holds
-Full procedure approaches
-engine failures as you turn onto the ILS
-10 mile straight in ILS's flown at 100 kts

What will be a big deal and which is not really covered in IFR training is

-Assesing weather
-Picking the best route and altitude
-Matching the enroute weather you actually have to what was forecast and amending the plan accordingly
-Deciding how little contigency fuel you should carry (remembering that fuel displaces paying pax/cargo)
-Managing your speed so that you have you don't waste time by being too slow.

The best way to get "real IFR flying experience" IMO is to be mentored by a good captain when you are an FO.

I do dispute the idea that every IFR instructor is a wet behind the ears newbie who has never actually flown IFR themselves. There are schools that have guys/gals with real experience on staff, you just have to search them out. You don't even have to do all your training with them to benefit, you can start with a regular instructor to get the basics and then finish with an experienced person who can enrich your training by salting it with practical real world operating tips.

The real crime in IFR instructing IMO is those schools who won't train in actual IFR. If you have never seen the inside of a cloud then planning an A to B flight with some enroute cloud time could be a good exercise under the right conditions, that is a stable stratus layer and a wide open destination and alternate.

[Dagwood]

Managing your speed so that you have you don't waste time by being too slow.

I might like to add Managing your descent as well. FTUs teach always descending to MSA once cleared for an approach, but that is not always the best way. You don't want come down to early (a turbine engine uses more fuel down low, and it is usually more bumpy for the pax), but you don't want to come down too late and have a steep descent (also uncomfortable for the pax).

Finally, do you do a "barber pole" descent and get there sooner? or a reduced power descent and save fuel?

[photofly]

The real crime in IFR instructing IMO is those schools who won't train in actual IFR. If you have never seen the inside of a cloud then planning an A to B flight with some enroute cloud time could be a good exercise under the right conditions, that is a stable stratus layer and a wide open destination and alternate.

Assuming you mean IMC and not IFR, you are advocating the counsel of perfection. Depending on time of year it's not always possible to arrange some en-route cloud layers especially if you have no anti- or de-icing. (I tried wretchedly hard to find just that, this year, and failed every time.) And planning cross country time in the middle of convective cumulus clouds is just silly.

[azimuthaviation]

Is there a way to get a ride on a charter/med-evac flight?

Fake a heart attack.

[A Regulator]

Regarding the Class II and Senior Commercial was because of ICAO. It didn't fit in with the rest of the world.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The real crime in IFR instructing IMO is those schools who won't train in actual IFR. If you have never seen the inside of a cloud then planning an A to B flight with some enroute cloud time could be a good exercise under the right conditions, that is a stable stratus layer and a wide open destination and alternate.

Assuming you mean IMC and not IFR, you are advocating the counsel of perfection. Depending on time of year it's not always possible to arrange some en-route cloud layers especially if you have no anti- or de-icing. (I tried wretchedly hard to find just that, this year, and failed every time.) And planning cross country time in the middle of convective cumulus clouds is just silly.[/quote

I disagree. Do your training in the winter on the West Coast and you will get plenty of IMC. 7.1 of my 9.0 hrs of initial MEIFR training was done in actual IFR conditions, including one actual minimum ILS. Second best is going to a school with a Red Bird or ALSIM simulator. These have very realistic visual systems and give a petty good simulation of the hardest part of every low approach, the safe transition from instrument to visual flight. In any case, I do not believe you can consider your self safe to fly in IMC unless you have actually done it, as IMO flying under a hood is just not the same. In actual IMC you do have the subconscious luxury of knowing you can always take the hood off and revert to VMC.

[DanWEC]

I did my group 1 at a Toronto area school as well, it's true that 99.9% of your training will be in VMC with a hood, and I've had flights called off because of real IFR conditions. Sigh. Of course, safety does come first, but it's a little ridiculous to have a plane that's used most of the time for IFR training, and that ISN'T certified for flight into known ice (Seminole with no de-icing).
The autopilots are always U/S as well. No practice on those. I have no idea how to use an autopilot except in a sim.

On an interesting note, the only entry I have under "actual instrument" time in my logbook was my initial IFR checkride. First time I ever flew in cloud.

[PunkStarStudios]

Just curious... you say there's no approaches at your airport... which airport is it?

I agree with your concerns, IMC experience aside, there's a lot more to IFR flight than just flying through clouds.

For example... my IFR instructor was top draw (Webster winner), but really didn't have any real world experience (but was academically very very sound). After my training I went on to captain a Piper Navajo (SPMIFR corporate stuff) after getting some additional trainning from a real world guy (and a TC-DPE).

Best training I could have ever asked for was flying out of YYZ down to Florida, or out to the East coast, or right out to Edmonton and back.

Anyhow - one day I took that originally instructor out for a ride. We were just departing YYZ in winter and doing several local area hops. All at night, very IMC, icing, etc. etc. He was of course proficient with IFR procedures but never landed/departed anything like YYZ.

So I'm on the ground, get my clearance, taxi, TO, punch through the clouds, kick the boots and proceed enroute while he sat right seat and watched. Once we were level he said something like "Holy crap, I could not have done that". Made me feel awesome of course. This was all old hand for me and typical but it illustrated that even through he knew procedures inside and out, was a top drawer instructor, had great stick and rudder skills and was even a former military jet AME; there are somethings in the real world that just can't be taught.

So operational experience if everything. I've had everything from partial panel failure, AP failure, glide slope failure etc. etc.... all while in solid IMC minimums - so being able to hand fly straight and level and manage a demanding plane is a critical skill, honestly... second to that of course - your radio skills will be your most important. Knowing what to say, knowing what to expect from ATC, and how to handle a new situation will be a skill you'll exercise almost daily. Yeah, occasionally you'll have to be able to do a full procedure approach somewhere remote with no radar coverage, so you need those basic skills to stay alive, but radio skill is used day in and day out.

So my advice, no matter what type of flight you are doing, get flight following. The more you talk on the radio, the more you'll hear others, and the more comfortable you'll be with the lingo. That goes a LONG way.

[f650]

Find a school and instructor that will do your training in IMC when you have mastered the basics. (A lot more than the 5 hours needed to pass the PPL.) Not every flight, but enough to give you something close to "real world" experience. I have canceled many IFR lessons due do lack of cloud, and I feel the 100 nm x-country has to be in IMC. Your cheating yourself otherwise. This has caused me lost income, but is worth it to create competent, confident pilots. A large part of flying IFR is decision making, and filing and flying in IMC gets you to learn how to make those decisions.

Before starting your training, spend time interviewing instructors to find the right one for you. Discuss your training and proposed syllabus and let the instructor know what you bring to the table.

It is tough for an instructor to make a living doing this, so you have to promise to hold up your end. That means if the instructor has to cancel another student due to low cloud, you will be there on short notice to fill in the space in their schedule and get your cloud time. Instructing is a two way street. Good instructors will impart a lot of knowledge to those willing to learn. If you want a good teacher you have to be a good student!

[PanEuropean]

So my advice, no matter what type of flight you are doing, get flight following. The more you talk on the radio, the more you'll hear others, and the more comfortable you'll be with the lingo. That goes a LONG way.

I agree 100%. In fact, if I have to move a plane further than about a half an hour's flying time away from where I am, I file IFR even if it is a sunny day. It's actually EASIER (less pilot workload) to fly IFR, because other people (the folks who work in the ATC system) look after keeping your aircraft out of places where it should not be, like other airport's control zones, active restricted or prohibited areas, the approach paths of other planes, stuff like that. All I have to do is point the plane where I have promised to point it (in my flight plan), or point the plane where they tell me to point it (often a much shorter route than I would get if I was flying VFR), and look out the window to make sure that I don't hit any other planes.

The great benefit of this (besides reducing my workload) is that when it is a cloudy day, I don't have to change my usual behavior or do anything different - I just do what I always do, which is point the plane either where I promised I would, or where I get told to point it. The best part of it all is that we get all these superb ATC services from Nav Canada at no extra charge - it costs no more to file IFR than it does to file VFR.

Michael

[Cat Driver]

I do not understand why flying in cloud is an issue. Flying in cloud is easier than flying VFR looking outside. The only time flying in cloud should be stressful is if you are at the published limits for the approach you are flying and you can not see the runway and decide you are not going to fly the missed approach procedure.

PunkStarStudios wrote:
So my advice, no matter what type of flight you are doing, get flight following. The more you talk on the radio, the more you'll hear others, and the more comfortable you'll be with the lingo. That goes a LONG way.

Exactly.

[Shiny Side Up]

I do not understand why flying in cloud is an issue. Flying in cloud is easier than flying VFR looking outside. The only time flying in cloud should be stressful is if you are at the published limits for the approach you are flying and you can not see the runway and decide you are not going to fly the missed approach procedure.

Really depends on a lot of things. In cloud when something goes wrong is way more stressful than when you can see the ground. During my small time in aviation I've had five electrical failures, all really non-events except the time I was flying IFR, which stands out as possibly the worst flight I ever had. Flying with students in cloud can sometimes be a nasty suprise, its very uncomfortable, I find, to fly instruments while sitting in the right seat and the dials are all over on the left for any length of time, litterally a pain in the neck. Worse when its because your student (who happened to have a lot of in cloud time and I was just helping him renew his IFR) decides to get vertigo for the first time in his life.

Personally I prefer flying VFR, I find flying IFR (in cloud) to be very fatiguing. Some people tell me how much they love it and to each their own.

[cgartly]

I have been itching for some cloud time ever since finishing my PPL and my night endorsement. I have wanted to see if I can handle keeping the plane straight and level, gentle turns etc. I live in the Okanagan so we are surrounded by mountains and it doesn't seem that the right combination of weather & availability (mine & instructor) ever comes together.

I have almost 15 hours of instrument time and got to use it out of necessity for the first time last night and while I was a little nervous all turned out well. I flew night VFR from Boundary Bay back to Kelowna between 10pm - 12am last night and even though I could see the stars there was no horizon whatsoever and a few clouds below me while I was at 9500' crossing the mountains back to Kelowna. Was about 1/2 moon last night. I have done the flight at night before in good weather conditions and never had to focus on the instruments to stay straight and level. I think there was more humidity in the air that was obscuring the horizon as when I turned the landing light on the "beam" went ahead a lot farther than usual. I was not in cloud, I could still see the ground and make out the odd cloud below me and see the stars clearly above me.

I found myself having to fight my body screaming that I was in a right nose down attitude and just focus on scanning the instruments and navigating with the GPS. After 1 hour of that I was tired, was glad to be back on the ground in Kelowna!

This was my first experience with Night being a lot more like IFR.