New Hires Can Travel with WJ, But Not AC

[Sea2Sky]

IS THIS TRUE?? New hires cannot use company passes until 6 months service is complete, but can still travel with Westjet?

[TopperHarley]

Its pretty common for company travel benefits to kick in after 6 months of employment, while jumpseat priviledges with other airlines begins on day 1 of employment.

It's not a big deal.

[Sea2Sky]

Is it a big deal IF other groups are allowed travel priveleges from day one, just not the pilot group?

I think it's HUGE deal when you have a rule in place for one group, and another rule in place for others. And I think it's a little frustrating when outside companies can offer you priveleges that your own company denies you.

[Marinth]

It used to always be 6 months until you could get flight passes. Getting flight passes right off the bat is a new thing. It must not have worked out if they're going back to 6 months.

[TopperHarley]

The "other groups" that Jumpseat on AC flights pay more and are of a lower priority than other AC employees. When I was at Jazz, our travel passes started right from day 1. Apparently now they are at 6 months, which is the same at Transat. Im not sure what WJ' policy is.

But honestly, waiting 6 months to get travel passes is not a big deal. It's not nearly as important as other issues like pension, pay, work conditions, etc. If you really want to travel that bad and can't wait 6 months, then buy a full fare ticket. That way you wont have to stress about being the most junior person on standby. And if you're trying to fly to get home and commute, well take WJ, Porter, or any of the other companies on your J/L agreement.

[whiteguy]

You don't thinks it's a big deal for the airline to deny priveleges to its youngest members, while another airline says "welcome"?!?

Is it a big deal that other groups are allowed travel priveleges from day one, just not the pilot group? How about the fact that this is a new rule, not one in place for years gone by? Why... because it's proven so expensive to seat a few of the lowest-paid employees at the company in seats not otherwise occupied by ANYBODY?

I think it's HUGE deal when you have a rule in place for one group, and another rule in place for others. And I think it's a little embarassing when outside companies can offer you priveleges that your own company denies you. This is supposed to be a world-class airline... where's the class?

Are you a new hire? If you are then maybe you should rethink your choice of going to work there.

[Sea2Sky]

Have you always tucked tail at the first sign of adversity, or is that supposed to be serious advice? The question isn't whether or not 6 months is fair, or quitting and running away, it's about treating people like human beings where possible. If you like your job and how you're treated, then it's because somebody somewhere stood up for you and your priveleges.

[whiteguy]

Have you always tucked tail at the first sign of adversity, or is that supposed to be serious advice? The question isn't whether or not 6 months is fair, or quitting and running away, it's about treating people like human beings where possible. If you like your job and how you're treated, then it's because somebody somewhere stood up for you and your priveleges.

I agree but if your just starting with the company there's not much to complain about. I had to wait 6 months for passes when I started.

I also had to see new hires receive passes from day 1 and pay no service charges. Was that fair to the employees that gave up so much during CCAA? The no service charges was a reward and thank you from the company for giving concessions, yet new hires that didn't have to go through bankruptcy, or give up anything, had service charges waived to!

[HavaJava]

I also had to see new hires receive passes from day 1 and pay no service charges. Was that fair to the employees that gave up so much during CCAA? The no service charges was a reward and thank you from the company for giving concessions, yet new hires that didn't have to go through bankruptcy, or give up anything, had service charges waived to!

That sort of disgusting, self-serving attitude is the exact reason why we are in this mess. The "you are junior, so you don't deserve anything more than what came before you" is just like lobsters in a bucket. I'm sure you've heard the analogy...no need to put a lid on a bucket of lobsters, the other lobsters will just pull down any that are trying to climb out.

Ever think that the new-hires are also paying for the sacrifices you made in CCAA? New hires no longer have the earning potential of those that were here pre-CCAA and they also have to live with many of the sell-outs that came with it. Position group is just one example. By the way, position group is not itself a problem...it's the excessively low EMJ wages that necessitated the formation of the PG that are the problem. But what's that you say?...you started on the DC-9 and made far more than any EMJ F/O or Capt...well I'm sure you deserved it far more than any of us!

I am up for improving the lot for all pilots, junior to senior, across the board. Whiteguy, your selfish attitude is what is destroying this profession. New hires (and the long career ahead of them) deserve to be treated with the same respect that senior widebodies Captains (and the long career behind them) deserve.

Unity and solidarity don't seem to be part of your vocabulary...shame on you.

[whiteguy]

I also had to see new hires receive passes from day 1 and pay no service charges. Was that fair to the employees that gave up so much during CCAA? The no service charges was a reward and thank you from the company for giving concessions, yet new hires that didn't have to go through bankruptcy, or give up anything, had service charges waived to!

That sort of disgusting, self-serving attitude is the exact reason why we are in this mess. The "you are junior, so you don't deserve anything more than what came before you" is just like lobsters in a bucket. I'm sure you've heard the analogy...no need to put a lid on a bucket of lobsters, the other lobsters will just pull down any that are trying to climb out.

Ever think that the new-hires are also paying for the sacrifices you made in CCAA? New hires no longer have the earning potential of those that were here pre-CCAA and they also have to live with many of the sell-outs that came with it. Position group is just one example. By the way, position group is not itself a problem...it's the excessively low EMJ wages that necessitated the formation of the PG that are the problem. But what's that you say?...you started on the DC-9 and made far more than any EMJ F/O or Capt...well I'm sure you deserved it far more than any of us!

I am up for improving the lot for all pilots, junior to senior, across the board. Whiteguy, your selfish attitude is what is destroying this profession. New hires (and the long career ahead of them) deserve to be treated with the same respect that senior widebodies Captains (and the long career behind them) deserve.

Unity and solidarity don't seem to be part of your vocabulary...shame on you.

Guess I hit a nerve, I used that example as something out of our control. The company can do what ever it wants with passes and nothing that can be done about it. Sorry but new hires know what they're getting into when they choose to apply at AC and take the job if offered. You don't have to take the job!

Those senior wide body captains had to wait 6 months for passes to.

[bcflyer]

Those widebody captains also got hired in their early 20's, had no kids, no mortgage and everything they owned could fit in their car. Relocating was as simple as driving to their new base. Todays new hires are in their mid 30's, have wives, kids, mortgages and all the tiedowns that are associated with them. Since they aren't told where they'll be based until they are already on course there is no way for them to relocate before they get started. Once they get finished their training they're subject to our archaic and borderline illegal reserve rules so have no hope in hell of having enough time off to move to where they are now working. Even if they did somehow manage to find the time to get their house sold, wife a new job and their kids into a new school, they wouldn't be able to feed any of them on the pathetic salary they are paid.

All they need are passes to get from their homes to their base until their regular passes kick in. The fact that they have to travel on a competitor to get to work because they aren't allowed to travel on their OWN airline is embarassing to say the least.

[whiteguy]

Those widebody captains also got hired in their early 20's, had no kids, no mortgage and everything they owned could fit in their car. Relocating was as simple as driving to their new base. Todays new hires are in their mid 30's, have wives, kids, mortgages and all the tiedowns that are associated with them. Since they aren't told where they'll be based until they are already on course there is no way for them to relocate before they get started. Once they get finished their training they're subject to our archaic and borderline illegal reserve rules so have no hope in hell of having enough time off to move to where they are now working. Even if they did somehow manage to find the time to get their house sold, wife a new job and their kids into a new school, they wouldn't be able to feed any of them on the pathetic salary they are paid.

All they need are passes to get from their homes to their base until their regular passes kick in. The fact that they have to travel on a competitor to get to work because they aren't allowed to travel on their OWN airline is embarassing to say the least.

Definitely valid points. I agree with the embarrassing part, may be ACPA should be negotiating something for new hires.

How did pilots manage to do it before 7 years ago when they had to wait 6 months?

[Ehviator]

Having to travel on the competition just to get to class in YYZ is embarassing to say the least. However, its all about supply and demand right now. The company has multiple times as many applicants as positions available and sees no need to sweeten the pot at this time. During the last wave of 05-07 when I was hired AC provided hotel and $50/day for the PIT course as well as for sim training in addition to immediate access to travel passes. This was due to hiring up to 40 folks a month and needing to attract people to apply. Its frustrating to see how much of that is gone and we all feel for you here on the line!
I congratulate and commend all of the recent new hires for making the decision to join AC! Keep a stiff upper lip 'cause its a lot of fun once you get on the line!!! Look forward to seeing you!
Good luck to all who are still waiting for the word! Barring any economic disaster or blockbuster court decisions AC will need about 120 new hires a year just to cover retirements for the next several years so keep the faith.

[Rockie]

I agree with the embarrassing part, may be ACPA should be negotiating something for new hires.

It's not possible to negotiate "enlightenment" into Air Canada management's brain pan. We could try telling them that forcing new pilots to commute on Westjet might convince them to keep their file there active afterall, but I doubt it would matter.

[KAG]

I think I had flight privileges when I was hired at Jazz right away, while my wife hired just before me was told 6 months - it changed sometime early 06. I gather now it's back to 6 months. I'm glad at WJ passes kick in right away as it would suck trying to commute full fare.

[FADEC]

BCFLYER Wrote;

"Those widebody captains also got hired in their early 20's, had no kids, no mortgage and everything they owned could fit in their car. Relocating was as simple as driving to their new base. Todays new hires are in their mid 30's, have wives, kids, mortgages and all the tiedowns that are associated with them. Since they aren't told where they'll be based until they are already on course there is no way for them to relocate before they get started. Once they get finished their training they're subject to our archaic and borderline illegal reserve rules so have no hope in hell of having enough time off to move to where they are now working. Even if they did somehow manage to find the time to get their house sold, wife a new job and their kids into a new school, they wouldn't be able to feed any of them on the pathetic salary they are paid.

All they need are passes to get from their homes to their base until their regular passes kick in. The fact that they have to travel on a competitor to get to work because they aren't allowed to travel on their OWN airline is embarassing to say the least."


Only thing, is BCFlyer is misinformed. Today's wide body Captains were not necessarily 24 with no kids etc; many were older, and married with kids. They were not told where they were going to be based till the end of their course. They did not get accommodation on training; or expenses. The pay was bad enough that some worked second jobs for the first few years just to get by.

When their six months were up they got passes; two, with service charges. At five years, they got four passes. The progression went up to 25 years, where they got 10 passes. The current system of passes is relatively recent.

Oh yeah; no subsidised colleges either; these guys paid for their flying and scratched for experience; there was really no third teir. One freight operator made you pay for your training, paid you nothing for one year, and let you live in the hangar. Pilots accepted these conditions to get where they wanted to be; Air Canada.

Those guys held up a contract till new-hire pay was raised. Another contract didn't pass till new-hires got accommodation and expenses. Management didn't understand why these guys would fight for something they didn't have and which wouldn't benefit them; they did it because it was right.

Those guys paid for your subsidised college with taxes which were much higher then. They also had 20 plus percent mortgages. Some got laid off repeatedly at predecessor carriers.

Every generation thinks the previous one had it easy; often with as little knowledge as some of the posters here.

Yes, the wage issue should be addressed. Yes there are things that need fixing. Don't come into the company and complain that things are not what you want them to be. Make a difference when your chance comes; That's what the senior guys did.

[Poppy]

New hires not getting passes right away is new. This just happened in the last class or two. Before that they kicked in right away.

[whiteguy]

New hires not getting passes right away is new. This just happened in the last class or two. Before that they kicked in right away.

Prior to 2005 or 2006 passes kicked in after 6 months!

[bcflyer]

Good lord you guys. For the last few years new hires got passes right away or at least passes to and from their home until their 6 months was up. Now out of the blue its changed. Why shouldn't we be pissed off about it?

If you think that the senior pilot are the only ones who have had it tough you obviously haven't been out in the world much lately. There are still a ton of crap operators paying crap wages in some really really crappy locations. Everyone has sacrificed something to get to AC or any other airline. If we constantly say "oh well thats the way it was when I got hired" whenever the company refuses to give something or worse takes something away, we'll never get any improvements.

This is a no cost item the company and we should be screamin mad they have taken it away.

[FADEC]

Agreed that there is no earthly reason for this change.

I was addressing the common assertion that the more senior pilots somehow had it easy.

It would be interesting to find out whose brilliant idea this was! What other bright ideas do they have in store? Abrogate the pension maybe; what about those inconvenient duty day rules? How about the whole contract! Oh wait, they already tried that.

[nottellin]

Wow, what a mess.

[altiplano]

AC pilots don't get jumpseat from day 1? Or are we just talking stby travel passes?

[Inverted2]

Wait till they bring back the service fees on the passes. You'll want to travel on Westjet because it's way cheaper.

[teacher]

Pass travel for pleasure is one thing, pass travel to travel to and from a new base and commute to work is something else, or should be.

[twinpratts]

Pretty standard in the industry, people. Nothing new here. BTW, you should know the rules before you start the job.