GUSTS! Handling tips & tricks for landing on floats

[aurora]

idk what Cat drives, but if its 215's, 415's and PBY's, I won't take away from his experience level as its vastly superior to mine and I've never flown seaplane and don't know how they handle. That said however, between me, and the 4 other float drivers I worked with in Northern Alberta we all agree and advise you not to attempt to land a float plane power off unless you absolutely need to or are practising forced approaches. You can easily dig a float attempting such a maneuver, or stall the A/C causing undue stress on the airframe. If you've got a couple hundred hours on floats you'll be able to do the maneuver if required w/o practice, and if you're landing on a lake where it's short to the point where you would even need to consider doing that, you've got bigger problems and good luck to you getting out of said lake. Depends on the airplane too, you try doing something like that in a c180, or c185 and you'll be wishing you'd never attempted it, and won't ever be trying that again. Power off landings in those airplanes can turn your skin tone a special kind of pale and gives you grey hairs and nightmares.
I've done incredibly short work in the c185 and in some cases I've landed in a few airplane lengths, approaching power on, 20 degrees flaps and 80 knots of airspeed on approach. Duck pond lengths with normal approach procedures and silky smooth touch down. Or chop and drop over a 500ft cliff or a treeline and back on to approach power at the bottom through the flare.
Take care with the gusts and don't ever go looking for those kinds of winds, have a great respect for mother nature too.
Flying is all about risk management, and minimizing the risks we encounter on a daily basis and safely dealing with the ones we can't control. If there is no need to go flying in gusty winds, then why would u increase the risk to yourself and your aircraft? If you happen to come across it during the course of flying, then that's entirely different.
One of the coolest parts about float flying is that there are so many different ways of doing things that you get to experiment with as you go, and you'll figure out what works best for you by trial and error.

[Cat Driver]

Well to clarify what seaplane I fly now it is a Husky on whipline amphibs.

I started on a PA16 on floats in 1954 and in between flew so many different seaplanes I can't remember some of them.

None not even one was difficult to land power off and power off is my preferred method when landing all of them.

So far I have not managed to dig a float or the bow of a flying boat during a landing on water. To dig a float you are contacting the water in the wrong attitude.

Something is wrong in this conversation when people are afraid of power off landings in basic small airplanes like the Cessna singles.

Once again lets examine the space shuttle, how many of them have been crashed by flaring to high and stalling?

[Blakey]

between me, and the 4 other float drivers I worked with in Northern Alberta we all agree and advise you not to attempt to land a float plane power off unless you absolutely need to or are practising forced approaches.

you try doing something like that in a c180, or c185 and you'll be wishing you'd never attempted it, and won't ever be trying that again. Power off landings in those airplanes can turn your skin tone a special kind of pale and gives you grey hairs and nightmares.

Are any of those guys available for lessons? Apparently I have to re-learn how to fly my 180 as I've been doing it all wrong!

[floatpilot]

I have lots of power off landings in a cessna, not one of them made my skin change color or give me nightmares I think you might need some new advice.

When landing in gusty conditions I do like others have said, I keep the speed up a little, find the biggest ugly chunk of black water and land in it, usually pulling the throttle to idle when I want to land. I do take the flaps off as soon as i am on the water.

[Blakey]

Still, you may be right as there is emperical evidence to support your theory. My hair is certainly grey. I wonder which of my other flying faux-pas is making it fall out?

[Cat Driver]

How did aviation get to this point?

Maybe the time has come to recall every flight instructor in Canada and re test them?

Then cull the herd.

[ragbagflyer]

I've never found power off landing in a float plane scary in anyway, nor have I encountered any tendency to dig a float. That's in around 3800 hours of float time on beaver's, the bush hawk, maule M7, cessna 180/185/172 and a champ. That said I rarely approach power off in the beaver with a full load because the decent rate is quite high. Also on the South Coast there is so many boat obstacles, rogue swell, and one way approaches that I like to be able to alter my touch down point easily so I prefer a shallower approach with power.

[Cat Driver]

It would be interesting to know how many pencil whipped seaplane ratings there are out there mainly due to the inability of T.C. to change the seaplane rating from five solo take offs and landings to having to do a flight test with an independent check pilot flight test?

Judging from this discussion there may be a lot.

[aurora]

Its most certainly unforgiving landing power off from 200ft AGL as in Cat Drivers original post and can be downright dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced pilot. Misjudge your height in the flare and land in the wrong attitude and you might be having a bad day. Especially for a guy who has so little time that he has come here asking for advice on landing in gusty conditions. Many a float driver has flipped from digging a float due to misjudging altitude over the water. I've read about plenty in the safety newsletter from Transport over the years, and watched as one or two were pulled out of a lake after being upside down. Many an airplane has gone in for a structural from a low altitude stall onto a heavy wave too. Ever hear of getting behind the power curve? I've seen a few low timers do it and the end result is never pretty. It's not wrong to land power off and everyone has their own way of doing things, but I guess you guys with more flight time than myself aren't capable of having a bad landing after a 15 hour duty day, when stretched to your 3 in 30, and any newbie who can't do it is obviously of inferior stock. You probably all have 14" penises (when flaccid) too, and keep harem's of supermodels.
I saw a WJ pilot a month ago with over 20K hours on 737's hammer it into the runway due to misjudging his flare. His quote was "An that's an example of how not to land a 737." Maybe he needs to go back to 737 school, and perhaps should not be a Captain after 20 years on type with a clean record according to some of you guys?
My landings are power on right to the water, and I can land on a duck pond every time, power on or power off. Keeping a hint of throttle at touch down keeps them very consistent though, and works in nearly any conditions or any airplane for MYSELF.
Also note I said every airplane is different in my original post.
Have you ever seen a guy with 10k hours on floats flip an airplane in perfectly nice weather? I've seen more than one, and the central theme is always the same: how did that guy manage to dig a float? Its always a mystery.
If you feel the need to cut the throttle at 200ft and land your float plane, all the power to you, its not my cup of tea though.

[Cat Driver]

Its most certainly unforgiving landing power off from 200ft AGL as in Cat Drivers original post and can be downright dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced pilot.

You have missed the whole message I was trying to convey aurora.

So here is a further clarification.

It would not matter to me what level of experience you have, if you can not consistently and comfortably land a sea plane with the throttle / 's closed from 200 feet above the water I would not sign you off as competent....period.

I understand that my attitude with regard to flight instruction may cause some here to become defensive, but the reality is that does not change the facts in how I see flight training and competency period.

P.S.::::

Nowhere have I ever indicated that one can not use power, wherever and whenever they see a need to use power. All I am stating is landing power off is not dangerous in and of itself...what is dangerous is not being comfortable doing it.

[nutbutter]

I think what aurora was referring to wasn't just the landing power off part, but the approaching power off part as well. I do a power off approach a couple times a year, and its on my annual training. Can't see a need to do it under normal circumstances, if you get the job done on your annual then who cares? We don't practice V1 cuts in King Airs and Metros b/c the mood strikes.
I agree it needs to be done on a ride, but I consider power off approaches/landings to be a separate lesson from Normal landings and not interchangeable.

[Cat Driver]

but I consider power off approaches/landings to be a separate lesson from Normal landings and not interchangeable.

Like I have said before, my opinion is quite simple.

If a pilot is not confident in any flight regime in whatever aircraft they are flying and can not interchange between every safe, normal control methods then they maybe need remedial training.

So lets put my opinions and methods in this context.

Advanced flight training, especially in sea planes was the business I was in.

Not only was my program accepted by the FAA , CASA in Australia and under JAR in Europe it was also accepted by Lloyds of London's Underwriters who I worked directly with.

I'm now out of this conversation as it is no longer of any interest to me what some of you may think or how you drive your equipment.

[nutbutter]

but I consider power off approaches/landings to be a separate lesson from Normal landings and not interchangeable.

Like I have said before, my opinion is quite simple.

If a pilot is not confident in any flight regime in whatever aircraft they are flying and can not interchange between every safe, normal control methods then they maybe need remedial training.

So lets put my opinions and methods in this context.

Advanced flight training, especially in sea planes was the business I was in.

Not only was my program accepted by the FAA , CASA in Australia and under JAR in Europe it was also accepted by Lloyds of London's Underwriters who I worked directly with.

I'm now out of this conversation as it is no longer of any interest to me what some of you may think or how you drive your equipment.

Well if you look it up in the Flight Training Manual, or any float book I've ever read, Transport Canada seems to think they are separate lessons as well. Just sayin

[Cat Driver]

Well if you look it up in the Flight Training Manual, or any float book I've ever read, Transport Canada seems to think they are separate lessons as well. Just sayin

If TC is your benchmark for how to fly an airplane you really do need guidance.

It has been quite a few years since I owned a FTU in Canada, however I still have the flight training manual 4th. edition and for sheer stupidity it would be hard to beat their view of how to teach wheel landings as outlined on page 111.

If they have changed it when did they and in what edition?

Just had to clear up that last comment before I bail out of this thread

[cdnpilot77]

I may be crazy here, but every checkout I have ever done in a single engine airplane involves demonstrating a forced approach...wouldn't being able to land without power and without digging a float be a benefit to a pilot if he/she lost their engine?

[beaverbob]

Crap, I just spent a half hour typing out a long and accurate reply and was about to add my name to it and I accidently hit a button and the whole message disappeared Now I don't feel like pounding my fingers anymore. Don't you just hate it when that happens?
Expect a good answer tomorrow.
Bob

[boozy]

Hey Soak, there is a situation where gusts can get a bit exciting and unpredictable. If you find yourself landing in a very narrow lake with high sides and with crosswind, you may find yourself unable to see the gusts. In fact you may be landing on glassy water despite strong winds above the trees. This is pretty hard to do and yes there are lakes all over the place like this and you may be tempted to give them a go since they don't look as rough. I wouldn't recommend it for ya if you are indeed a newbie. Probably a season or three behind you and you could have a go at this. Anyway, when you can't see the gusts and when you can't see the water, then you basically find yourself flying in the seat of your pants literally. You have to use your close shoreline for your glassy flare and then use your power, hands and feet to get the airplane on the water. You likely will not be able to place the airplane down where you want, you'll just try to place it down in one piece and firm is actually good... at least then you know you're on. Once on, POWER idle.

Another simple pointer in the gusty conditions is to "avoid" aiming for a greaser at all costs because if you do fluke this and really do grease it on (and it can happen quite often actually) then you may not KNOW that you are on the water and make power adjustments (like power on.. bad) that put you back in the air at low energy. So basically, firm is good... good enough!

Also, CAT, your first post on this one, the simplest... was the best... not that I need to blow smoke up your ass.

[floatpilot]

In 13 years of flying float plane, I have not come across this "gusty" glassy water you speek of. If the water is glass, then there is obviously not any gusts to worry about on landing. It may be a little rough on approach though.

Not to side track, but once i found my self fighting the controls of a cessna 185 in calm conditions and could not figure out what was going on, then realized the otter had just taken off infront of me and I was in its wake. I never did that again, and always make the new guys aware of this. That was my first season in the bush.

[boozy]

Like I said, narrow lake with high sides. Crosswinds including the gusts turn into very turbulent air as they cross the top of the trees but don't necessarily reach the surface to indicate their existence (often they do); so the surface is glassy and the ride down to the surface is bumpy/gusty. Use to work at a place that operated out of a "lake" that was like this quite often.

[Liquid Charlie]

glassy water doesn't count on a narrow lake --

[ruddersup?]

Power off float landings from 200 feet with passengers on board, hmmmm. I don't think that is a comfortable ride for passengers and I try to avoid rapid decents if there is room. I like to handle the aircraft from the downwind to touch down without the passengers knowing we have landed. (Cat, remember ACE McCool with the switch on the dash that he flipped advising his passengers that "we have landed "). From downwind to touchdown, hardly any noticeable change in speed, decent and powersettings. Yes, I know if it is gusty and a small lake then things change but then again they are probably hanging on anyway.
Small lakes with full gusty crosswinds can give you glassy water too. Just make it an arrival and don't try to make it pretty. I'm talking a lake 1/2 mile long with tall tree on both ends.

[floatpilot]

I am having a hard time trying to understand this gusty glassy water you guys are talking about. If the water is glassy, there is no wind there, therfore it is calm at the water level. Like i said before mabe coming over the trees will be turbulent, but on landing it will be calm. If you have trouble with this, you need more training

[Cat Driver]

Power off float landings from 200 feet with passengers on board, hmmmm. I don't think that is a comfortable ride for passengers and I try to avoid rapid decents if there is room.

I don't have the time to re-read my comments word for word on this subject, but I am sure I was clear the power off descents from two hundred feet only refereed to type rating training on the PBY. I am almost sure I pointed out that I generally reduce power to throttle / 's closed at fifty feet for normal landings with or without passengers on the airplane.

I like to handle the aircraft from the downwind to touch down without the passengers knowing we have landed.

What exactly does that have to do with going from cruise power to zero power fifty feet above touch down?

Done properly the power to zero will be unnoticeable by passengers, especially if you do not select full fine on the prop /'s until zero thrust is set.

[Siddley Hawker]

I am having a hard time trying to understand this gusty glassy water you guys are talking about.

Well, it's been awhile since I flew floats but I admit to being a little perplexed myself.

[ruddersup?]

If you have a narrow lake with trees and a 90 deg crosswind you will probably have glassy water and wind gust swirls. You need a run for the wind to develop wave action and lets say the lake is 200 feet wide, this is not long enought for the wave to generate across the width of the lake. No wave, then glassy water. However the gusts coming over the trees will come from all angles making this one of the most difficult landing situations. This is not a true glassy water condition like some of you are questioning but talk about a situation to dig a float because the friction level is high. It is quite difficult to see the surface of the water and watching the shoreline might be in order. Make the lake short and this is a time to be humble, so if you see a gust that worries you then go around and pick your moment. Damn, scaring myself now. It's one of those things you really can't get good at but you know you can do it.
Must be similar to a 1000' jungle strip with a crosswind.