Overseas - Possible for a first job?

[FL_CH]

I'm finishing up my CPL, I'm young, single, and free to go wherever. I understand the North -> Ramp -> FO-on-a-Ho route that I'd need to take here in Canada, and I'm OK with it, but what about overseas? Is it possible to get your first job on contract somewhere else in the world? The overseas contract job posting sites I have seen all list A320/B767 Captain / FO positions, which would be a little too ambitious for me

Africa, perhaps?

If anyone has any experience I'd love to hear it.

[MG_]

Check out pprune.org. They have infinitely more information on working overseas than avcanada.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Africa is definitely doable. Lots of places to go but one of the bigger aviation centers for low-timers would be Maun, Botswana. There are several companies there that do the flights into all the safari camps. Lusaka, Zambia would be another spot, although I think Maun is probably a better option. The flying you'll do is much the same as flying up north in Canada, just the animals wandering across the runway will be different I understand the money is not as good as Canada, but the life experience would be amazing. Just like up north, you actually have to go there and hang around in order to get a job.

[Just another canuck]

Botswana, Zambia and Tanzania... all possible. In fact, Dar and Arusha in TZ are short of pilots right now... qualified Van pilots that is, but that just means the 206 drivers will be upgraded sooner.

The pay is poor for the 206 but once on the Caravan, you do quite well. The pay may be slightly less than what you would make in Canada, but look at it this way.

You make 60 grand a year in Northern Canada... you lose 12 or so to taxes and 24 to basic living on average through the year. Car insurance and gas and miscellaneous, you are left with very little money to put in your savings account. 10 grand maybe a year if you're lucky.

Now, you make 3500/month US tax free to fly a Van in Tanzania. Your company gives you an apartment. It costs you 500 a month to live well. Spend a 1000 and you're living like a king. Buy a cheap motorbike to get around. So, you save 2500-3000 a month... that's 30000 dollars + a year that is going into your savings account.

Plus, the flying is not like in Northern Canada... unless you're doing off strip stuff, which is few and far between. In Canada, the runways are 3000 feet, flat and have lights and GPS approaches, etc., etc... in East Africa, the runways are short, slant up, down and sideways and are just wide enough to get your wheels down and there are dozens of animals and birds in the vicinity every time you land. You will fly 1000 hours + a year as well, which is becoming more of a rarity here in Canada.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, pack your bag, make sure you have a few grand to get you by until you land something and buy a ticket to Africa. I suggest Emirates via Dubai. Good luck.

[Typhoon]

Just out of curiosity, what are the hour requirements like over in Africa (specifically Arusha and Dar), and would an instrument rating be required/give you an edge? I've heard it's mostly VFR, but I could be wrong

Also, what's the best time of year to head on over there?

Thanks!

Edit: Side note, does anybody know what the industry is like in the EU right now and what sort of requirements you need to get on with someone there (from several searches I haven't really been able to find any small outfits).

[Youngback]

What JAC is saying is absolutely true. In one year (of 2 and a half) in Tanzania I saved $34,000 dollars and had a great time doing it. The 206 guys seemed to struggle at first but they moved up quick and did nearly as well initially as the more experienced guys. By far the best job I think I'll ever have done.

[Youngback]

Some other pics of the hazards of Tanz

[chipmunk]

Beautiful pics, Youngback.

[Youngback]

Typhoon, I can't say for sure about Botswana, but for Kenya and Tanzania and I'm certain Malawi and Zambia an IFR rating is required. As has been mentioned before in previous threads, in many African and European countries, you get a rating for each aircraft you fly. There is no such thing as a blanket rating similar to what we have here in Canada. You want to fly a 206, you do a written exam on a 206 and then a flight test and then it gets put on your license. For anything bigger than that, you'll need an IFR as well. It's not a suggestion. They won't give you a rating without it as in addition to the written exam and the flight check, you'll do an IFR flight test as well on the aircraft in question. In many situations in Tanzania, there wasn't really much of a difference filing IFR or VFR flight plans. No one was looking out for you either way. The controllers were just as likely to fly another airplane into you when filed IFR as VFR. This was one country where you did not want to be flying at exact altitudes or precisely holding on GPS tracks. I always flew about 150 feet high or low of my assigned altitude and usually about 1-2 miles off course upwind or in the opposite direction of the departure procedure being used. More than a few times on an IFR clearance, I heard ATC clearing another aircraft through my altitude on an opposite heading within a couple of miles of my position. Most pilots, myself included, had no problem getting on the radio and doing ATC's job for them. It seems the guys flying regularly in the area, Just Another Canuck included, were the only people who actually had any situational awareness. Tanzania bought a 50 million dollar radar system and they just used the screens as a place to hold their lunch.

[Typhoon]

Thanks for the info Youngbuck! It was very informative

[MIQ]

Back to Europe, just some general information, don't know if it helps. A bunch of friends of mine back home in Germany got their license last year and started flying commercial this year. One of them got hired on a 757 with around 250 hrs, another just started flying 737NG with 270 hrs, one is flying CRJ (700/900), and one just got on the Dash 8. Don't know their hours, but definitely less than 300. So most of the guys I know got a flying job within 6-10 months after school. So it seems to be pretty doable to fly anything bigger than a Beech King Air after school. That being said, the job interviews are very competitive and it's definitely not easy getting hired. But the minimum requirements are different.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Back to Europe, just some general information, don't know if it helps. A bunch of friends of mine back home in Germany got their license last year and started flying commercial this year. One of them got hired on a 757 with around 250 hrs, another just started flying 737NG with 270 hrs, one is flying CRJ (700/900), and one just got on the Dash 8. Don't know their hours, but definitely less than 300. So most of the guys I know got a flying job within 6-10 months after school. So it seems to be pretty doable to fly anything bigger than a Beech King Air after school. That being said, the job interviews are very competitive and it's definitely not easy getting hired. But the minimum requirements are different.

I'm sure it's a pretty safe bet that your friends either:

a) paid for the type rating
b) paid for line training
c) are making peanuts
d) all of the above

Nobody in Europe gets hired on to a jet with 250 hours without paying for it these days.

[MIQ]

My friend on the King Air had to pay for the type rating, that's true. The guys on the CRJ and Dash didn't have to (it's Lufthansa), neither did the one on the 737. Those had to pass some pretty tough interviews though which took a couple of days with personality test etc. Not sure about the guy on the 757 (Condor). I know though that there are different contracts where you have to pay 50% or more of your type rating and line training, depending on the airline and/or hours you got. But yes they are all making peanuts. Like I said, I have no information what the general situation is like, I only know these specific cases.
Either way, I wouldn't say that getting a flying job in europe is a lot easier than here and for sure it's not cheaper. But if you wanted to, you could probably get on a jet a little bit faster than here. I came to Canada because I'd love to get some experience in bush flying after I get my CPL.

[woopyjumper]

I'm sure it's a pretty safe bet that your friends either:

a) paid for the type rating
b) paid for line training
c) are making peanuts
d) all of the above

Nobody in Europe gets hired on to a jet with 250 hours without paying for it these days.[/quote]



I know plenty of guys who got hired to fly A320, Lear or others jet with 200 hrs TT ! different word out there...

[North Shore]

^ I'd bet that they're also all locals, with EU passports, local language skills, and right to work..

Look at the hard time we give to obvious foreigners on here when they ask about flying in Canada. Why would you think that the Eu is any different?

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I'm sure it's a pretty safe bet that your friends either:

a) paid for the type rating
b) paid for line training
c) are making peanuts
d) all of the above

Nobody in Europe gets hired on to a jet with 250 hours without paying for it these days.

I know plenty of guys who got hired to fly A320, Lear or others jet with 200 hrs TT ! different word out there...

Unless they were with one of the major airline cadet programs (BA, Luft..etc) then they would have paid for their TR on the A320, and quite possibly their line training too. It's a very different world over there, and not to the benefit of the pilots.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Typhoon, I can't say for sure about Botswana, but for Kenya and Tanzania and I'm certain Malawi and Zambia an IFR rating is required.

Yb, those are great pictures!!! That's Langai in one of them right?
Just to correct you a bit, no IFR is needed to fly commercially in Malawi. Unless your flying one of Bruno's twins in IFR conditions that is! (nice guy by the way and runs what's pretty much the only outfit out there...)
In TZ you only need an IFR if your flying anything bigger than a 206...

Regards,
TPC

[nd93]

but if we want to fly in africa or somewhere else, do we need to have a citizenship or something like that?

[Youngback]

First off, thanks for the comments on the pictures!

ND93, It depends completely on the country involved. There are many countries in the Middle East that hire foreigners. A few countries in Asia also hire foreigners. Usually the developed countries have the training facilities, the pilots and the laws to exclude non-citizens from working in their countries with some exceptions. Others like Thailand have pilot training and hire foreigners but only after they have exhaustively searched for a local candidate. In those situations, the pay is usually quite poor unless the work is specialized. In Africa, the problem is usually that they don't have training facilities or qualified candidates and then the only solution is to hire foreign pilots. Before you go to any country, research the companies involved and what the restrictions are, if any, for a non-citizen to get work there. Botswana experimented with banning foreign pilots last year. I'm not sure how successful that was.

As for actually working in the country, if you are not a citizen, regardless of your occupation or home country, you will require a work visa.

[OHMYLANTA]

YB, what about converting licenses? or do they not care about converting your CPL like with working there in the first place.

[FL_CH]

From what I hear, as long as you have an ICAO CPL (which a Canadian CPL is), you have to write the local Air Law exams and you get the local license.

[Youngback]

And Teepeecreeper, yes that is Lengai in both of the pictures. One mid eruption, the other long after that.

[FriendlyBear]

I'm sure it's a pretty safe bet that your friends either:

a) paid for the type rating
b) paid for line training
c) are making peanuts
d) all of the above

Nobody in Europe gets hired on to a jet with 250 hours without paying for it these days.

Jo Blow,
I have no idea where you get your info... but I live and work in Europe and what you have posted here is not entirely correct. Pilots in Europe are hired right out of school and typed and put online just like anybody else. The norm is a three to five year long bond where the company supplies a bank loan that the new hire signs on to. Over the period of three to five years, the company will pay the loan back in monthly installments. If the new hire pilot walks, he or she will take the loan with them. Period. I know two guys who were typed on the Q400, they left after 3 years (they both had a five year bond) and the loan went with them... they still had the initial school loans to pay back too. They both started on the 757/767 for a large charter operator and then when the Boeing machines were phased out they were typed (without bond) on the A320/330 and received a CCQ. They left the Q 400 operation in 2006 and are now happily both new Captains on the A320/330 family and enjoying life. They are both 32 years old. The only regret is that they had to take the Q 400 bond with them, but in hind sight it was the right decision. Had they not left the Q 400 operation, they would be both still F/O on the Q 400.... the monthly salary on initial hire was €2400 net per month.
There seems to be a myth that all pilots in the EU are buying type ratings.... yes, some are but that is a small minority that have normally expired all avenues of selections and interviews with the major airlines and regional operators. Yes, it is a different world over here when compared to aviation in Canada (I started in Canada too because I am from Canada) but not everybody is "getting hired onto a jet without paying for it".... new hire F/O's with 250 training hours were recently hired on to the FK70/100, CRJ 200, B737 and A320 fleets where I work and bonded for 5 years with the same bank loan scheme as detailed above.... nobody had to fork out a type rating cost.... and the new hire net salary for the new F/O's is still €2400 per month with 60 hour monthly contracts.
Hope that clears everything up!
Bear