VFR-OTT question

[Panama Jack]

After looking at the AIM (which lead me into Part IV) I am a little confused.

Is the holder of an expired Instrument Rating allowed to exercise the privledge of VFR-OTT operations, or does he need to apply for a separate VFR-OTT rating as detailed in CAR 421.44?

[AEROBAT]

Yes.

[Panama Jack]

Yes . . . what?

[AEROBAT]

You can file VFR over the top if you have EVER held an instrument rating. No need to be current. I believe even if you only hold a commercial rating there is no need to apply for a VFR OTT rating.

Your plane has to have the appropriate nav aids and instruments and that is where there is confusion.

[Panama Jack]

OK, thanks.

[AEROBAT]

Actually I just looked it up....the commercial licence does include VFR OTT as well as night, ultra-light ect.

[Panama Jack]

Thanks again!

[tkdowell]

An applicant for a VFR OTT rating who holds, or has held an instrument rating shall be considered to have met the Knowledge, Experience and Skill Requirements specified above, and shall be issued a VFR OTT rating upon request.

Yes, you have to apply for it separately, based upon the red wording above.

Do you have a CPL & Category 1 Medical?

[Panama Jack]

That was the exact sentence that prompted me to ask this question.

So does the holder of a CPL or an ATP with an expired IFR have to apply for a VFR-OTT rating based as per the citation? I am not so proficient in navigating around the CARs these days. A point-out of the applicant regulation would be helpful. Thanks!

[erics2b]

It says "shall be issued a VFR OTT rating upon request", not "may exercise the privileges of a VFR OTT rating".

[Aeros]

There are four ways that someone has the ability to operate VFR OTT. (Those cases are identified in the "Privileges" elements of CAR 421. The general legal position is that if there is a licence or rating that grants a certain privilege then one must hold one of those licecnces or ratings to exercise those privileges.)

The following licences and rating afford the holder the privilege of operating VFR OTT:
a) VFR OTT Rating (CAR 401.45);
b) Instrument Rating (CAR 401.47 (b) which grants the privileges of a VFR OTT Rating);
c) Commercial Pilot Licence (CAR 401.30 (1) (b)); and
d) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (CAR 401.34 (1) which grants the privileges of a CPL).

The kicker with b) is that the Instrument Rating expires. Once it expires, the rating is no longer valid which then means that you can't exercise the privileges of that rating -- in this case VFR OTT. If the only authority that you had was an expired Instrument Rating then there is no provision under which you could exercise VFR OTT (since that privilege came as part the Rating which you can no longer exercise). This is why I encourage any PPL holder that has an Instrument Rating to apply for the VFR OTT Rating if they don't already have it -- it will let them fly VFR OTT if their Instrument Rating expires.

In this particular case, the question talks about the holder of a CPL or ATPL with an expired Instrument Rating. In that case, the holder can still fly VFR OTT since that is a basic privilege of the Licence itself. (Even though the CPL or ATPL won't say VFR OTT the privilege is still there -- just like the Night Rating, they are both inherent privileges of the CPL and ATPL.)

NOTE -- my comments and references are specific to the aeroplane world. The rules are different on the helicopter side.

[Panama Jack]

Thanks for the response, Aeros. Very informative!

[kiloindiapapa]

How about a commercially rated pilot, who lets his class 1 medical expire and defaults to class 3. ( I only keep the class 1 if I am flying for work).

Can this person who still has a commercial license, but cant fly for a commercial operator because his medial has expired, fly VFR OTT privately?

[Big Pistons Forever]

How about a commercially rated pilot, who lets his class 1 medical expire and defaults to class 3. ( I only keep the class 1 if I am flying for work).

Can this person who still has a commercial license, but cant fly for a commercial operator because his medial has expired, fly VFR OTT privately?

You exercise the privileges of the rating you are eligible to hold. Since with a Class 3 medical you are only authorized to hold a PPL, those would be the privileges you would be operating under and so therefore yes technically your license would need to say "VFR OTT rating" to allow you to "legally" fly VFR OTT. As a practical matter I would hope TC has better things to do then go after you for what is a wholly paperwork breach of the regs.........

[kiloindiapapa]

How about a commercially rated pilot, who lets his class 1 medical expire and defaults to class 3. ( I only keep the class 1 if I am flying for work).

Can this person who still has a commercial license, but cant fly for a commercial operator because his medial has expired, fly VFR OTT privately?

You exercise the privileges of the rating you are eligible to hold. Since with a Class 3 medical you are only authorized to hold a PPL, those would be the privileges you would be operating under and so therefore yes technically your license would need to say "VFR OTT rating" to allow you to "legally" fly VFR OTT. As a practical matter I would hope TC has better things to do then go after you for what is a wholly paperwork breach of the regs.........

I hear you. But I hold the licensce and therefore the rating. I dont have to do another flight test or written, and just because my medical expires does not mean that I dont have a commercial license. I have a commecial license. I just leagally cannot work for pay until I get my class 1 renewed.

[AEROBAT]

There are four ways that someone has the ability to operate VFR OTT. (Those cases are identified in the "Privileges" elements of CAR 421. The general legal position is that if there is a licence or rating that grants a certain privilege then one must hold one of those licecnces or ratings to exercise those privileges.)

The following licences and rating afford the holder the privilege of operating VFR OTT:
a) VFR OTT Rating (CAR 401.45);
b) Instrument Rating (CAR 401.47 (b) which grants the privileges of a VFR OTT Rating);
c) Commercial Pilot Licence (CAR 401.30 (1) (b)); and
d) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (CAR 401.34 (1) which grants the privileges of a CPL).

The kicker with b) is that the Instrument Rating expires. Once it expires, the rating is no longer valid which then means that you can't exercise the privileges of that rating -- in this case VFR OTT. If the only authority that you had was an expired Instrument Rating then there is no provision under which you could exercise VFR OTT (since that privilege came as part the Rating which you can no longer exercise). This is why I encourage any PPL holder that has an Instrument Rating to apply for the VFR OTT Rating if they don't already have it -- it will let them fly VFR OTT if their Instrument Rating expires.

In this particular case, the question talks about the holder of a CPL or ATPL with an expired Instrument Rating. In that case, the holder can still fly VFR OTT since that is a basic privilege of the Licence itself. (Even though the CPL or ATPL won't say VFR OTT the privilege is still there -- just like the Night Rating, they are both inherent privileges of the CPL and ATPL.)

NOTE -- my comments and references are specific to the aeroplane world. The rules are different on the helicopter side.

I stand corrected I wasn't thinking about the fellow with an instrument rating and a private licence.

[medi-whacked]

I hear you. But I hold the licensce and therefore the rating. I dont have to do another flight test or written, and just because my medical expires does not mean that I dont have a commercial license. I have a commecial license. I just leagally cannot work for pay until I get my class 1 renewed.

Oooo Boy !! Here we go !!

[AEROBAT]

I hear you. But I hold the licensce and therefore the rating. I dont have to do another flight test or written, and just because my medical expires does not mean that I dont have a commercial license. I have a commecial license. I just leagally cannot work for pay until I get my class 1 renewed.

Good point. Transport won't put VFR OTT on your licence even if you wanted them to. Just like there is no night rating on a commercial licence allthough you hold the privelidge.

Does your night rating lapse with your Cat 1 medical? It is one of those paper traps that the stupid CARS produce.

[Beefitarian]

No night rating? Don't you need a night rating before you can flight test for CPL? That's what Morgan Air told me.

[gustind]

I hear you. But I hold the licensce and therefore the rating. I dont have to do another flight test or written, and just because my medical expires does not mean that I dont have a commercial license. I have a commecial license. I just leagally cannot work for pay until I get my class 1 renewed.

+1
This has been beat to death. A couple of my friends didn't sign off their night rating (even though they've done it) because its just an extra $35. They say there is no point to sign it off cause they won't be flying at night until they get their CPL anyways. So they sign off the CPL and are at that point endorsed for night and VFR OTT. Now to say that if they let their medical lapse that they can't fly at night or VFR OTT is just silly. Once a rating is awarded to you, you hold onto it for the rest of your life. Just like Seaplane, night, and VFR OTT.

[AEROBAT]

There is no night rating printed on your licence allthough you hold one with a CPL, the same as VFR OTT. BigPistons says you lose the VFR OTT when your Cat 1 lapses. If that is so then you would lose your night rating as well.

I don't think that would be the case as VFR OTT and the night licence don't require a Cat 1 medical in the first place.

[ahramin]

According to the CARs if your Private Pilot License was never endorsed for VFR-OTT or Night, then if you let your Cat 1 medical expire you would lose the ability to fly VFR-OTT and Night.

It's not because it makes sense, it's because they didn't think it through. If you let your Cat 1 medical expire, you don't get your Private Pilot License back, you exercise the privileges of a Private Pilot Licence because you are the holder of a Commercial Pilot License and your medical is still valid for the period specified for a Private Pilot Licence.

You couldn't apply to have VFR-OTT and Night ratings added to your Private Pilot License even though you meet the requirements because you no longer have a Private Pilot License.

So according to the CARs once you get your Commercial Pilot License you need to keep your Cat 1 medical current to keep flying at night and VFR-OTT.

Like I said, they just didn't think it through all the way, I seriously doubt TC Enforcement would be interested in pursuing this one.

[Beefitarian]

Sorry to be mean but this is one of the problems with commercial flight training and some of the instructors on here have brought it up defending themselves to Cat Driver.

A couple of my friends didn't sign off their night rating (even though they've done it) because its just an extra $35.

Here you have people spending almost $200 per hour to take flight training and they won't pay $35 for a night rating because they don't have to. With that investment they could log time proving they practiced valuable skills by flying solo at night, get better access to aircraft at a busy FTU, finish one more leg on a cross country if they ended up getting behind a bit and dusk is comming and have the rating on their license.

Instead it's, "$35 awww, do I have to? No? Oh good then I won't"

So according to the CARs once you get your Commercial Pilot License you need to keep your Cat 1 medical current to keep flying at night and VFR-OTT.

I seriously doubt TC Enforcement would be interested in pursuing this one.

Maybe, but if they did, would it cost the pilot more than $35?

[gustind]

There is a better reason than "it's just $35." I just haven't stated it. If you'd like to know pvt msg me.

[Beefitarian]

I'm not trying to pick on your friends. I just know (and have been drawn into it myself) there's a tendancy to start penny pinching so much that you don't want to spend a cent that you don't need to.