Generation creep.

[Sunseeker]

It looks like the pendulum has reached the end of it's swing and may be starting it's swing back. Here is what I mean.

Boeing is now producing 42 B737's a month. These aircraft require 5-7 crews each to operate, depending on the depth-of-pocket of the operator. To keep up with this there needs to be at least 2 Boeing flight simulators certified each month to keep up with the product out of Seattle. The cirriculum of training this number of pilots turns them into what we call "children of the Magenta Line". Follow the flight director that you have carefully programmed and everything will be fine. You will meet the standard set by a regulator that no longer understands the environment.

Automation and technology should be enhancements to the skills already in place. The skills and craft of flying are the foundation. The enhancements should allow the job to be performed to a higher standard. Instead, what I see is people that fly the FMC rather than the beautiful wing of the 737 (sniff).

[sstaurus]

I find myself slowly forgetting how to do things the right way, as I'm just now part of the 'D, enter, enter' crowd... but I try to review the basics and actually pull out LO and VFR charts regularly! Just one example, obviously you guys are talking about more than that, but it will definitely take my own motivation to keep the basic skills sharp, since it's not required for my job that's for sure. Of course the other day I found a map from 1993 in the plane...

[Cat Driver]

Here is a thought Cat.

Why not put those years of collected wisdom of yours to use, and instead of playing question and answer, put together a specific set of training issues and your practical ideas of how to resolve them.
Otherwise we are just going round and round...Sitting on the porch in our rocking chairs badmouthing the new generation, but doing nothing positive to improve it.

This is a great idea, but unless there is a dedicated section of this forum where qualified people can get their thoughts together carefully monitored by the group it will just turn into another shit show.

Seriously though, my idea of retirement is to become an instructor (again after 25 years). It is a bit of a challange to compete with young instructors who will put in 70 hour weeks, clean the office, answer phones, and do it all for diddly-squat. a few months ago I actually looked into renewing my rating, but what Transport requires, and what the FTU's want are about $10k apart..and the problem is with the FTU's. The experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the understanding the current class 1 instructors that I dealt with have for meeting a requirement. It is all about money to them. BTW, the people in Transport Canada are aware of this little problem and were most helpful.

That was my intent also Trey but it went all to hell after I had the FTU part approved and by the time it was over I had no O.C. and no money left for the project.

It has been going on ten years since I won my settlement with TCCA but to this day they have not paid one cent towards the $250,000.00 they owe me.

So a few of you people here should set up a new section open only to approved qualified people where you can identify where the problems in training are......agree on solutions to fix it........and lobby the regulator to change the way training is done.

[yousuckmonday]

So let me see if I understand your position Yousuckmonday, you are in aviation and you see nothing to worry about when someone try's to point put your regulator is infested with morally corrupt top management? Like for instance the region I live in, the Pacific Region.

Nope, completely wrong. You do not understand my post. I was responding to the original post which did not explicitly contain anything about morally corrupt top management in regulatory agencies. I would say that you should refer to the O.P. but you wrote it. So for clarity:
STOP your bitching, whining and pointless inflammatory remarks. If you want examples look at about 90 percent of your posts.
RESUME your helpful, knowledgeable, and instructive comments. If you want examples look at your contributions in the threads regarding taildraggers, base to final, and whatever is contained in the other 10 percent.

If you still don't understand send me a PM.

[Cat Driver]

I am well aware of your opinions yousuckmonday regarding the general quality of my posts here and have no issues with you compartmentalizing me as just another " 75 year old curmudgeon ". I have no problem with that especially when I take into consideration you are anonymous.

I started this thread based on an e-mail I received from someone I know personally who not only is one of the highest time highest qualified pilots in Canada he used to post here.

Attached is the e-mail again:

Dont often read the trash on Av Canada but did browse through the thread on "Gusts". It seems that one now has to be a super pilot to land on floats from anything but a powered approach! ! I dont have the heart to tell these bloody twits that we had to demonstrate an idle power approach all the way to touchdown on the frigin Sunderland, not that many of these posters would know what a Sunderland is. Really ., I dont know why you bother, the standards are such a joke these days in regards to basic skills, one only has to read the last nine hull loses to see that the dumbing down of flight training is just starting to take effect. Hope all is well with you,

As to these comments:

No one is interested in hearing the continuous bitching and griping. You might think you deserve a medal for giving tail dragger training to one pilot, check flights to another, and hoping that you get a Bell 206. However, the regular vitriol that you serve up on this forum to new pilots at any level does a massive disservice to hundreds of others that come to this website for information.

I still offer training on a one on basis to pilots who know my background and are happy to pay what I charge, however there are some pilots out there who no amount of money would entice me into offering training to.

By the way in case you do not already know my name is not really " Cat Driver " it is . . and I have zero problems with accepting various opinions on what I post here, yours included.

One more comment, you can rest assured the top management in TCCA know who I am.

[RenegadeAV8R]

I am well aware of your opinions yousuckmonday regarding the general quality of my posts here and have no issues with you compartmentalizing me as just another " 75 year old curmudgeon ". I have no problem with that especially when I take into consideration you are anonymous.

Cat Driver, I think that you should simply ignore all post from yousuckmonday. As of today, yousuckmonday wrote a grand total of 8 posts, and the last 4 of them were rants against you.

This individual really appears to be a frustrated wannabe pilot that is jealous of your accomplishment and your aviation career.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69151&p=652532&sid= ... 74#p652532

Hope someone can help. I have finally saved enough pennies to take my PPL. Ideally, I would like to complete this in a month, shorter if possible.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69151&p=652957&sid= ... 74#p652957

I'm just creeping up on 40 and have wanted to fly since knee high to a grasshopper. I'm not going to be flying 747s, but I would like to fly into the states from time to time. Otherwise I would consider the Rec Pilot Permit as an economical route to go.

[Nephilim]

Ouch…. That has gotta hurt a bit eh ‘yousuckmonday’?

Heh .! How’s the “ol kunt hooks” working for ya?

The wording is appropriate that ‘yousuckmonday’ is “just creeping up on 40”… “and has wanted to fly since knee high to a grasshopper” which is when you would have been about 40 years old .. If you put both 40 year old’s life resumes side by side, . would have had more hours then ‘yousuckmonday’ will ever have; and that’s if you survive the industry as long as . has. Even taking aviation and pilot hours out of the equation, .’s life resume at 40 would still be of more interest to more people I would suspect, then would someone else at age 40 that would name his profile ‘yousuckmondays’.

So ‘yousuckmondays’ STFU and learn to respect your elders!

[MUSKEG]

Now that there is a slam dunk if I ever saw one. Well said. Don't give up ., there are a bunch of us out here staring retirment in the face and thinking what did I do that for?

[Sunseeker]

There was actually potential at the start of this thread to discuss something useful. If Iwas an industry outsider I would determine that pilots hate each other based on what I've read here. The issues don't really matter. It is back to "Who" rather than "What" is right....again.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the support guys, thinking back, when I was forty I was chief pilot for a water bombing company and flying all year around fire bombing...summers in Canada and Canadian winter in Chile.

Surviving all those decades of flying and maintaining flying machines was the easy part, it was the last year and a half that nearly killed me.

I am sure things will get better as time passes because I'm a tough little bastard....just ask the top people in Transport.

[MUSKEG]

They say people mellow with age. Is the pussy cat era upon us, or should we not expect it for awhile yet?

[bandaid]

How's life treating you CD?

Good to see you are still reading and commenting.

I am slowly getting back in the groove flying a light amphibian out here on the left coast, it is interesting to be reminded that skills not used become rusty so to speak.

So far I have not wrecked the fuc.ing thing yet.

There is an up side to working again, not only is it helping me emotionally it is helping physically as I have actually started to slowly regain some of the weight I lost during the past year, hell I was never very big to start with.

Bandaid will be pleased to find out I am on the mend.

You bet I am, thanks Cat. Fly safe.

[Beefitarian]

DOG PILE on the new guy!!

There was actually potential at the start of this thread to discuss something useful. If Iwas an industry outsider I would determine that pilots hate each other based on what I've read here. The issues don't really matter. It is back to "Who" rather than "What" is right....again.

Cat can't possibly be the crab ass he seems to be in text sometimes here.
1. Too many here have stuck up for him.
2. He would have got sick long ago from it.
3. If he was really that mean he would have been in the news killing transport canada employees with a rake or something. (some days many pilots have to restrain themselves from that)
4. There's probably a bit of truth in "jealous of your accomplishment and your aviation career."

When you read you filter things more than in conversation when you have so many more cues from the person depending on your own mood and experiences.

[TG]

I will probably get shot down here for saying so but hell...

If you put both 40 year old’s life resumes side by side, . would have had more hours then ‘yousuckmonday’ will ever have

So it's still who got the bigger willy who win !?
It's not this kind of post who will reassemble people, you have to give some credit to yousuckmonday for sort of trying -->

RESUME your helpful, knowledgeable, and instructive comments. If you want examples look at your contributions in the threads regarding taildraggers, base to final, and whatever is contained in the other 10 percent.

10 % seems low though..
But he is obviously reading and appreciating what . has to say regarding his personal experience.



Now, no offense but sometime some of you veteran guys remind me of my (now retired) Mom.
She did great things in her life, had a few nasty throw backs in between and now spend most of her life b!tching, complaining and being very direct about it no matter who she is talking with....We do still love her though! But by acting this way with zero diplomacy she isolate herself more and more from people, friends and now some of the family. Who simply get tired of the perpetual diatribe, especially when they are part of it.

The way "Ex Sunderland pilot" generalize this current situation is the same. It's all black or white, no middle, certainly no diplomacy. And by reading his email, I somehow feel pushed on the wrong side without being asked my position or personal experience.
This, even if I would agree with him.
Not his tone though...Actually, I could dumbly reply "Maybe he had to practice his idle power approach on his 4 engines sea plane because their reliability sucked big time!"

I guess there is so much stupid things one can handle in life before having his fuse shortened to the point that it will blow regularly and on very, very short notice.


Conclusion:
"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."
So we should stop talking about you . and start digging your flying experience instead, while you will talk about ideas like you already did with your Cub!

[Hawkerflyer]

I think a major problem with the industry is we filter out all the natural pilots. Look at the steps in an interview process with any major/corporate operator. They do not look for "flying" skills but rather are more adapted to filter out the pilot with the weaker book smarts. From my experience in the industry, this is where I believe things are going wrong. There a lot of guys out there who are brilliant when it comes to aviation knowledge but when it comes to flying the aircraft, they would rather manage it than fly it because the hands and feet skills are non existent. These guys get through the system. Please don't get me wrong here, a professional pilot needs to know his stuff, I just believe the selection process is backwards.
I think the industry needs to sit back and re think the pilot selection process first, then attack the training issues.
What do you think of that perspective?
HF

[Cat Driver]

Aviation is one of the careers where the less than competent can and do slip through the cracks because the selection process for hiring pilots is often skewed to cull those who do not have the paper work to prove their real skills....good decision making skills with equally good flying skills.

In other words B.S. often blurs reality and they get through.

Once in B.S. keeps driving their careers unless they kill them self's.

Eventually they end up in charge of the system and it just goes down hill for everyone.

[Beefitarian]

That's so true sir. Like a lot of other places that prefer papers they don't even care what you studied either, it's just a way to arbitrarily deem perfectly good people as substandard and increase the ability to hire some others that would be homeless if their family couldn't afford to buy them a degree.

I see people in all kinds of jobs with some Uni degree and know it's the only reason they are in that position.

[jpilot77]

I was wondering where Hedley went, what happened?

[Beefitarian]

Banned then rebanned with an IP block. Kind of sucks in my opinion but he was a bully so he hurt people's feelings by pointing at their mistakes and laughing. Also most of the pilots are all serious and so they don't like to joke around. I think there's only about 8 of us that miss his particular mix of wascally ways and excellent information.

[Nephilim]

I agree with Hawkerflyer’s recent post here. What may have been the difference in the Air France TransAtlantic crash had the pilots been experienced bush pilots/Northern Canadian experience (no matter what the age) that wouldn’t have in that Air France scenario gone; ‘Auto pilot off’ (if so lucky to have one) ‘max power, check gear/flaps up, dead foot dead engine – verify, stabalize engines appropriately, ie., if altitude has been lost – max power – clean up the dead engine if applicable, 5-12 degrees nose up (depending on the scenario), bank into the good engine to obtain best/max rate of climb (if applicable), or maintain assigned altitude, then …. CHECKLIST.

I speak from experience but when it happened to me (even though I was on an IFR flight plan – single pilot) I was fortunately in VFR conditions and landed without further incident. I’m way off thread topic but – I did not declare an emergency with ATC despite complicated issues in the cockpit (no pressurization or outside air source caused by mechanics rag (God bless their souls) which also caused total erratic ‘air instrument’ readings). However I have declared emergencies in the past perhaps in half a dozen scenarios, perhaps have had the same amount of ‘incidents’ under my belt, and two airplane crashes (one caused by engine failure and the other by pilot error on an emergency medevac ((smoke over lake due to raging forest fires – Beaver on floats – straightened the float strut with two 2x4’s and Herc straps – flew injured medevac patient out safely)), several near misses, several engine failures (multi-engine and single engine) Comm failures under IMC/IFR and … the list could go on. Even been hyjacked once and hate to admit it, but even forget the squawk code now! Is it 7500? (too lazy to Google it). 7700 emergency, 7600 comm failure, 7500 hyjack????

Back to sorta on thread topic … ., when you were looking for a glider school and or tail wheel/float training and/or helicopters training facility, I own one (start-up) in Ontario and am looking for a working partner in both maintenance and flight training in both gliders, fixed wing (tail wheel/floats/skiis/multi-IFR) and helicopters, I was going to ask you to come help with start up, but assumed you would have turned it down because it is not B.C., and I don’t blame you. I started out on the west coast and sometimes scratch my head trying to figure out how I ended up here (although it is not that bad – and no big earthquakes down the road).

When I flew with you . many moon’s ago you were known as the pilot with the best hands and feet (even under IMC conditions)! Unfortunately you were also known as the most outspoken, which sometimes got you in trouble. If I may suggest, drop the TC issues and move on! I too have lost several hundreds of thousands of dollars due to TC incompetence… but that’s all it is. Move on! No one from TC is out to get you personally. The corporate world is the same. Remember AW? He once told me after robbing me of over $200,000 in 1994 to; “not take it personally…it is just business”.

Life goes on; . you should write a book! Keep to the real stuff and leave maybe a chapter at most to the Transport Canada bullshit. Same shit different pile!

All the best ., and condolences to the loss of your most beautiful wife.

Ps. For those of you out there that do not know .’s wife, … well, all I can say is I always wondered how . was able to snag such a lovely and educated woman. I think that those who knew . just even a little must have known that deep down . must be a man of deep character, to have maintained such a beautiful person as a wife all of those years, when he was an active (away from home) pilot most of those years.

Cheers .

[yousuckmonday]

Yes! Yes! Dog Pile the new guy!!! Then let's burn him in effigy in the town square... wait a minute... I'm the new guy. Crud... and now my backspace key doesn't work. LOL.

Not hoping to fan the flames, but there are a couple of points for further clarification before we all go back to drinking the Kool-Aid. Just let me say from the outset that there are a couple of people that have it right. I agree with a lot of what Cat Driver says (not all of it) and really disagree with the frequency and how he says some of it.

...I think that you should simply ignore all post from yousuckmonday....

I appreciate that you don't know me as anything more than a low time pilot with 8 (now 9) posts on this forum but it seems a little counterproductive to be instantaneously dismissive of a person for that reason only. Even more counterproductive to suggest ignoring all the posts. One of the valid concerns regularly raised by Cat Driver has to do with the TCCA. I have been working for the Federal Government for over a decade and worked for an agency that was pretty much hand in hand with the Federal Government for five years before that. I do know a little about Federal regulatory bodies and have some knowledge as to how to go about changing policies and procedures in an efficient manner using the systems that are in place. Sure, the old joke that the Federal Government has two speeds - slow and slower, is funny because it is true. But that doesn't mean that there aren't shortcuts or snarls that you can avoid if you know about them ahead of time.

Regardless of work background, you would thingk that a somewhat mature, but low time pilot would be given some credibility simply by virtue of not being a starry eyed teenager who is simply delighted to be flying. Someone coming to the table with a couple of observations as to concerns within the system might hold a little water if he has any work / training / education experience to compare things to.

If you take issue with my being fed up with Cat's bitching and complaining then sure, ignore me, but examine it for yourselves. Look back on his posts and see how many contain solid information and how many are venting, grandstanding, blowing steam, and just... well... bitching. All right, it is not 90 percent, but it isn't 50 -50 either.

...This individual really appears to be a frustrated wannabe pilot...

Nope. I am a pilot and am quite content to simply buzz about the cabbage patch. As you see from the quote that you added to your post, I have no ambition to be a 747 pilot.

......that is jealous of your accomplishment and your aviation career.

Well duhh... you would have to have a sack of hammers for brains to be visiting this forum and not be a little jealous of Cat Driver's accomplishments and career. That is called "being human"

Ouch…. That has gotta hurt a bit eh ‘yousuckmonday’?

Not really. Not like there is any consequence and I've heard worse.

Cat Driver, just so you have something to respond to, I'm gonna stand by my guns on this one. I don't think that you are "just another 75 year old curmudgeon", I think that you are a 75 year old curmudgeon that is well accomplished in aviation (you said you had no issues with my compartmentalizing you as such) but instead of going into your knowledge base and posting some information of value you choose the easy route and go with the inflammatory messages. I don't walk lock step with you on everything, but then.. if you put five guys in a room together they won't agree on pizza toppings. I find it hard to believe that anything that I have written will leave you seriously emotionally damaged.
Hmmm... come to think of it I will retract my being dismissive of your efforts to get decent flight training up and running out west. Good luck with your business venture. At least it is a start.

Hope this doesn't pull the thread too far off topic, because it was looking like it was coming around again.

[Beefitarian]

I appreciate that you don't know me as anything more than a low time pilot with 8 (now 9) posts on this forum but it seems a little counterproductive to be instantaneously dismissive of a person for that reason only.

Well you could be right but it's how all the cool Internet clubs run so why go against the grain?

[trey kule]

Aviation is one of the careers where the less than competent can and do slip through the cracks

Well, thank goodness for that or my career in aviation would have gone nowhere

I am not sure anymore exactly what the topic we are discussing is, but the impression I get it has turned into the importance of how to properly present your ideas. Presentation is as important as the idea you are trying to get across. Sometimes that is hard for some people to understand, and under the guise of telling it like it is , or plain speaking, they offend others to the extent their ideas are not even considered. I really have never seen much evidence that this type of person gets it when it is pointed out.

I do think that there is a real degradation in the quality of flight training. Until the governments stop getting involved in flight training for political reasons and stop subsidizing the various colleges, it is not about to change. We must get the emphasis back on learning the very basic skills and knowledge so that a new pilot will have the foundation to go out on whatever path they choose. Instead we are getting CRM, PDM, procedures, turbine theory, and my very favorite...aviation management for the twenty year old with no work experience.
We are seeing instructors from the flight sim generation who think that how you teach someone something is to dream up a fantasy scenario and then let the student go through it. Dont worry about the basics.. Just have fun. I really dont give a rats butt if a new CPL has experienced a simulated engine out after inadvertently entering clouds and icing( from a different thread) But I do care that they understand that you must lower the nose if the plane is stalled or about to stall...and that seems to be lost on some instructors, CFI's and colleges.
The challange response, and all the nifty calls dont mean much if the pilot does not even look at the guages when they throw a switch, or what to do if a run up check fails to meet the specs.

It will come around. As tragic as the air france accident was, people are starting to realize that some pilots have made it way above their completence level due to technology, and that when it comes down to a life and death situation and a return to the very basic flying, it just is not there. the evidence is right here on AvCanada. Instructors posting that you can power through a stall without reducing the angle of attack, and that the aerodynamics of a small twin are radically different when it comes to working through a stall. what do you suppose their students are learning?

The solution is really quite simple..Teach the basics. Right up through the commercial and initial IFR.. Set the foundation so firm in a new pilot's little brain (is that an oxymoron?) that it will be imprinted for life and will come back to them many years later when they need it.

[trey kule]

Edited, because I just wanted to demonstrate how pushing buttons without determining what the result would be.

[Northern Flyer]

I think a major problem with the industry is we filter out all the natural pilots. Look at the steps in an interview process with any major/corporate operator. They do not look for "flying" skills but rather are more adapted to filter out the pilot with the weaker book smarts. From my experience in the industry, this is where I believe things are going wrong. There a lot of guys out there who are brilliant when it comes to aviation knowledge but when it comes to flying the aircraft, they would rather manage it than fly it because the hands and feet skills are non existent. These guys get through the system. Please don't get me wrong here, a professional pilot needs to know his stuff, I just believe the selection process is backwards.
I think the industry needs to sit back and re think the pilot selection process first, then attack the training issues.
What do you think of that perspective?
HF

Good Post Hawkerflyer,
I have to agree with you 100%.